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Moved Discussion - Sufism


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Fanatic Islamic forces did quite well around the world converting people by force, but as you rightly said, India was another ball game all together as the ideology of dharma was more rooted within society than anywhere else, much if India did resist, battles were won and lost, this was more the Mughal regimes tactic. Either convert or die, however the sufi sant movement, with their devotional singing enchanting people hearts and minds focused on the similarity of the all pervading god with the people of the Indus, not the difference. They sang of the one gods love spreading the Ideology of equality of his creation. Rather than having a sword on your neck and being told to convert, these sufi sant were able to convert masses of Indians with this approach such as dhan dhan baba sheikh fareed!

As to whether we should not really highlight the Mughal aspect, I think we have to as its a complete historical saga, not just one episode. Like for e.g the ghallugara what took place at Shri harmandhir sahib in 1984 was a due to a whole back log of events starting from 1947, so I feel that the whole history should be told, as then the sikhs actions are justified because we had 5 gurus who were more orientated around the Bhakti movement until Shiri guru hargobind mahraj who gave us martial status and we became Bhakti and shakti orientated.

Nice topic pra

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the sufi sant movement, with their devotional singing enchanting people hearts and minds focused on the similarity of the all pervading god with the people of the Indus, not the difference. They sang of the one gods love spreading the Ideology of equality of his creation. Rather than having a sword on your neck and being told to convert, these sufi sant were able to convert masses of Indians with this approach such as dhan dhan baba sheikh fareed!

The Sufis came only after India was bruised by repeated Islamic invasions. They did the job of what a Pakistani army nurse would do to an Indian soldier after he has been wounded by Pakistani bullets and captured alive. Sugar coated sweet talk therapy after a boot camp thrashing session I'd say.

Baba Fareed Jee was not that type of a saint. Please find me any source where he preached Islam and had people convert.

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The Sufis came only after India was bruised by repeated Islamic invasions. They did the job of what a Pakistani army nurse would do to an Indian soldier after he has been wounded by Pakistani bullets and captured alive. Sugar coated sweet talk therapy after a boot camp thrashing session I'd say.

Baba Fareed Jee was not that type of a saint. Please find me any source where he preached Islam and had people convert.

Mehtab Singh, sheikh baba fared was a Sufi sant musalmaan, he was never a Sikh. What type of Sufi sant was he? The one that doesn't preach Islam? Not all Hindu people converted to Islam forcefully, many must of converted through their own choice, after the inequality of the Hindu hierarchy, many through the Sufi sant movement even after the repeated Islamic invasions as you mentioned. Check any history written on baba sheikh fareed and it writes he converted people obviously to Islam as he wasn't a Hindu. He was Muslim.

Also veer ji, The Sufi sant as to how you describe them is a little degrading as to what there purpose was. Main Mir was also a Sufi sant of whom you claim was offering people sugar coated sweet talk. Parmaatmas truth is everywhere, also in other religions, just because they are Sufi sant does not mean they know no truth if god, hence why we have a Sufi sants saloks in our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji

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Many did convert under the sword, many converted because of the caste cancer. But based on the words of Baba Fareed Jee in Gurbani, I am merely questioning where is the evidence that he brought people to Islam. Unless that is a assumption?

There is also a belief that all the Bhagats whose Bani is in Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj did become Sikhs.

Other than that, this is what I found online:

One of the greatest virtues of his life was his love and sympathy for entire mankind. His heart felt pain of oppression perpetuated by the Muslim invaders in the name of religion. He tried to put balm on the hurt psyche of the people through the medium of sweet, soothing words so that the adverse impact caused by excesses of the orthodox Muslims to the image of Islam could be neutralised.

However, a feature of Sheikh Farid's compositions available in the Guru Granth is that they do not seem to be the work of a religious missionary of Islam who is known to have enjoyed great esteem in high circles both religious and temporal and to have converted large numbers of people to Islam. These compositions have very little of the spirit of Islamic Shara use very little of Islamic religious lore and do not show any marked sectarian trend. From the nature of the contents, they seem to be the work of a Muslim who though deeply religious had very little to do with Islamic lore. On the other hand, he is keenly aware with the transitory nature of this world as per the Hindu belief. It is surprising indeed that nowhere in these verses does the name of the Muslim Prophet Mohammed ever occur, nor do his tides of Nabi, Rasul, Paigambar, etc. Even the word 'Murshid', a popular concept of Sufi tradition, is not to be found. The general temper is devotional, no doubt, and great stress is laid upon the performance of prayers, fasting and other ways of worship according to Islam. The spirit is, nevertheless, of Hindu bhakti. Even the words Guru and Prabhu occur in one of the hymns.

A Student asked Baba Farid if singing was lawful and proper. He replied that, according to Islam, it was certainly unlawful, but its propriety was still a matter of discussion. Nizam-ud-Dauliya told Nasir-ud-din, a disciple of his, that one day when he went to visit Baba Farid he stood at his door, and saw him dancing as he sang the following :

I wish ever to live in Thy love, O God
If I become the dust under Thy feet, I shall live
I thy slave desire none but Thee in both worlds;
For Thee I will live and for Thee I will die.

http://searchgurbani.com/bhagats/baba_farid

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Nice piece of research however just because the saloks were added into our Guru Granth Sahib does not mean they became Sikh. They wrote simple truth of Akal purakh, the same for Bhagat Ravidass Ji and Bhagat Kabir ji. These never became Sikhs. They just knew sach. Sheikh baba fareed is a Sufi sant musalmaan, which is not along the same line of orthodox Islam, for e.g the singing of devotional hymns, the swirling dervish all stemming from Rumi. However they were musalmaan just how us Sikhs have now many jathebandi and paths and Rehat Maryada. We all claim were Sikh, just as sheikh baba farid is Muslim even though his Rehat is different to the other main stream Muslim Rehat.

Sheikh baba farid converted people to Islam, I can remember reading this, also a vast number from the Tiwana ghot. I read this in a piece of history on baba sheikh fareed, but cant remember the source, but when I find it il be sure to let you know sir.

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You know there are several flawed arguments used by Muslims to prove that Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj was a Muslim. Over the past several years, however, we have found out that those are fabricated. There is a video on Youtube where a Muslim speaker refers to Baba Fareed Jee as a minuscule level saint, probably because he did NOT preach Islam the way they would have wanted him, or brought legions of people to Islam.

Lets also not forget that Sufism is abhorred by mainstream Sunni Islam and perhaps even Shia Islam. If indeed he was Muslim, this would be a surprise: http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Blast_at_Baba_Farid's_shrine

This topic actually started about the way Sikhs see Hindu warriors in history. Lets try and stick to that. We can discuss about Baba Fareed Jee in a separate thread maybe?

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Fanatic Islamic forces did quite well around the world converting people by force, but as you rightly said, India was another ball game all together as the ideology of dharma was more rooted within society than anywhere else, much if India did resist, battles were won and lost, this was more the Mughal regimes tactic. Either convert or die, however the sufi sant movement, with their devotional singing enchanting people hearts and minds focused on the similarity of the all pervading god with the people of the Indus, not the difference. They sang of the one gods love spreading the Ideology of equality of his creation. Rather than having a sword on your neck and being told to convert, these sufi sant were able to convert masses of Indians with this approach such as dhan dhan baba sheikh fareed!

As to whether we should not really highlight the Mughal aspect, I think we have to as its a complete historical saga, not just one episode. Like for e.g the ghallugara what took place at Shri harmandhir sahib in 1984 was a due to a whole back log of events starting from 1947, so I feel that the whole history should be told, as then the sikhs actions are justified because we had 5 gurus who were more orientated around the Bhakti movement until Shiri guru hargobind mahraj who gave us martial status and we became Bhakti and shakti orientated.

Nice topic pra

This was my original post mehtab singh. I was linking the debate that the whole history should be told as its a huge saga as for e.g 1984. Islamic conversion wasn't just done by the moguls, hence why I added the Sufi history in for the attention of "Big Tera" as he may also find it intriguing as I do.

I was not talking about whether Shiri guru Nanak was Muslim. You just brought that up for some reason. Mainstream Islam obviously does not condone the approach of Sufism, i'm aware they don't hold sheikh baba fareed in high esteem, still does not change the fact that he lived as a Muslim as per his Sufi Rehat and died as a Muslim, buried and enshrined as per their SUFI MUSLIM REHAT.

Also, You quoted my post, you asked me the question I replied to your question to which you then replied and now your asking me to keep on the topic? Lol!?

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