Moved Discussion - Sufism

[sikhiseeker]

I do quite admire Dr. Naik, honestly.

But just for you quick attention :

Tiwanas claim their ancestry from Raja Bhoj (Parmar Rajput Clan) who ruled India and had capital at Bhojpur in Madhya Pradesh, India. It is believed that Tiwanas settled in the Punjab region, in search for a fertile lands after the fall of Parmar kingdom. During the Bhakti movement in the 15th century, they followed Guru Nanak's {Founder of Sikhism} teachings and became Sikhs at the time.

Those who settled in the western Punjab became Muslims by accepting Islam at the hands of Hazrat Baba Fariduddin Ganjshakar. Commonly known as Baba Farid (ਬਾਬਾ ਫ਼ਰੀਦ), he was a 12th century Sufi preacher and saint of Punjab

[SikhKosh]

Mehtab Singh, sheikh baba fared was a Sufi sant musalmaan, he was never a Sikh. What type of Sufi sant was he? The one that doesn't preach Islam? Not all Hindu people converted to Islam forcefully, many must of converted through their own choice, after the inequality of the Hindu hierarchy, many through the Sufi sant movement even after the repeated Islamic invasions as you mentioned. Check any history written on baba sheikh fareed and it writes he converted people obviously to Islam as he wasn't a Hindu. He was Muslim.

Also veer ji, The Sufi sant as to how you describe them is a little degrading as to what there purpose was. Main Mir was also a Sufi sant of whom you claim was offering people sugar coated sweet talk. Parmaatmas truth is everywhere, also in other religions, just because they are Sufi sant does not mean they know no truth if god, hence why we have a Sufi sants saloks in our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji

It is accepted by many noted historians that the Fareed of Gurbani is the contemponary of the Guru, a spiritual successor to the 12th century Fareed, who was impressed by Guru Nanak Dev Ji. The real name of this Bhagat was Sheikh Ibrahim Sani.

The devout and fanatical Sheikh Fareed, one who converts people to Islam as you said yourself, would not use un-Islamic terms such as Guru, Saadh in his Bani.

The meeting between Gurudev and Bhagat Fareed has been documented in many Janamsakhis, such as the Puratan and Meherbaan.

All Bhagats whose writing is included in Guru Granth Sahib were influenced by Guru Nanak Dev Ji and were therefore his Sikhs. And don't tell me you believe that Sain Mian Mair laid down the foundation stone of Harmandar Sahib?

[sikhiseeker]

It is accepted by many noted historians that the Fareed of Gurbani is the contemponary of the Guru, a spiritual successor to the 12th century Fareed, who was impressed by Guru Nanak Dev Ji. The real name of this Bhagat was Sheikh Ibrahim Sani.

The devout and fanatical Sheikh Fareed, one who converts people to Islam as you said yourself, would not use un-Islamic terms such as Guru, Saadh in his Bani.

The meeting between Gurudev and Bhagat Fareed has been documented in many Janamsakhis, such as the Puratan and Meherbaan.

All Bhagats whose writing is included in Guru Granth Sahib were influenced by Guru Nanak Dev Ji and were therefore his Sikhs. And don't tell me you believe that Sain Mian Mair laid down the foundation stone of Harmandar Sahib?

Many historians like to put there opinion on things and don't present the history for what it is. Like how they stamp the caste on Sikhs to demonstrate how that particular caste had gave more kurbaani, or fought more valiantly than other castes in their own opinion, If it was Sheikh Ibrahim Sani, then the Salok would of been " Salok Sheikh Ibrahim Sani ". I am aware that he was the successor of the Sufi Gaddi, however I said sheikh fareed was devout, did convert people to Islam and was a Muslim to do so, he was fanatical about god but the Sufi path of Islam is very different to that of orthodox Islam. Thats why there is no obligation to using in-Islamic terms in the Salok. If you research the Sufi path, you will see how different it actually is, Quwalli is a product of Sufism, which would be strictly against sharia for orthodox Muslim right? Sufi ustaad, like the late Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan had no issue singing the shabad of Guru Gobind Singh and Bhagat Ravidass all in a Gurdwara, did that make him Sikh too?

Its abit concerning that today us Sikhs feel the need to stamp anyone a Sikh who has had any affiliation with gurus or if there bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib. I think this stems from Dhan Dhan bhai Mardhana, as he spent so much time with Guru Nanak Dev Ji. But just because someone else's bani who belongs to another religion i in our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not mean they became Sikh, its like were a little insecure to now admit that other religions know the truth of god too?

To conclude, Sufism is obviously not orthodox Islam as Islam rejects Sufism itself, in my opinion, they are the Salok of sheik farid, who lived and died a Sufi sant musalmaan, Sheikh Ibrahim Sani was the successor of that Sufi Gaddi, but if they were his Salok he simply would of called them his Salok.

God dwells in all people of all faiths, they know truth about Akal purakh, if that is then written and added to the Guru Granth Sahib, does not mean they became a Sikh, the gurus met many people, not all turned to sikhi for e.g they say guru Nanak was "Hindus da guru, musalmana da peer" they claim guru Nanak to their own religion!

[Mehtab Singh]

Moving posts from Sikh history thread

[Mehtab Singh]

The Sufi sant as to how you describe them is a little degrading as to what there purpose was. Main Mir was also a Sufi sant of whom you claim was offering people sugar coated sweet talk.

I have the absolute respect for Baba Fareed Jee and Saaeen Miya Mir Jee who I do not place in the same category as those Sufis who brought people to Islam only after India had taken a beating. I am no one to say if they became Sikhs or not. My point is they were not the type to bring people to Islam, thats all. Same goes for Pir Budhu Shah Jee also.

Parmaatmas truth is everywhere, also in other religions

By that logic there is no need for Sikhi then? Why does Bhai Gurdas Ji then say "Nanak Nirmal Panth Chalaya"? Doesn't it indicate that the earlier ones were not fully "nirmal" ?

just because they are Sufi sant does not mean they know no truth if god, hence why we have a Sufi sants saloks in our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji

The message of their Shabads in Gurbani is in perfect accordance with the Gurmat philosophy of Guru Sahibaan, however not in full accordance with Islam/Sufism. Again, I repeat, the Mahapurakhs we are talking about were different from other Sufis based on the fact that they (a.) did not bring people to Islam, (b.) did not abide by Sharia (which actually condemns Sufism).

[Mehtab Singh]

Tiwanas claim their ancestry from Raja Bhoj (Parmar Rajput Clan) who ruled India and had capital at Bhojpur in Madhya Pradesh, India. It is believed that Tiwanas settled in the Punjab region, in search for a fertile lands after the fall of Parmar kingdom. During the Bhakti movement in the 15th century, they followed Guru Nanak's {Founder of Sikhism} teachings and became Sikhs at the time.

Those who settled in the western Punjab became Muslims by accepting Islam at the hands of Hazrat Baba Fariduddin Ganjshakar. Commonly known as Baba Farid (ਬਾਬਾ ਫ਼ਰੀਦ), he was a 12th century Sufi preacher and saint of Punjab

Thanks veerji. I am not denying your facts or knowledge. Just trying to emphasize the point that the saints whose Bani our Guru Sahibaan included in Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj were not the kind of convert-seeking proselytizers of another faith. Perhaps we're getting confused here as there was more than one Baba Fareed over the centuries?

[SikhKosh]

Many historians like to put there opinion on things and don't present the history for what it is. Like how they stamp the caste on Sikhs to demonstrate how that particular caste had gave more kurbaani, or fought more valiantly than other castes in their own opinion, If it was Sheikh Ibrahim Sani, then the Salok would of been " Salok Sheikh Ibrahim Sani ". I am aware that he was the successor of the Sufi Gaddi, however I said sheikh fareed was devout, did convert people to Islam and was a Muslim to do so, he was fanatical about god but the Sufi path of Islam is very different to that of orthodox Islam. Thats why there is no obligation to using in-Islamic terms in the Salok. If you research the Sufi path, you will see how different it actually is, Quwalli is a product of Sufism, which would be strictly against sharia for orthodox Muslim right? Sufi ustaad, like the late Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan had no issue singing the shabad of Guru Gobind Singh and Bhagat Ravidass all in a Gurdwara, did that make him Sikh too?

Its abit concerning that today us Sikhs feel the need to stamp anyone a Sikh who has had any affiliation with gurus or if there bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib. I think this stems from Dhan Dhan bhai Mardhana, as he spent so much time with Guru Nanak Dev Ji. But just because someone else's bani who belongs to another religion i in our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not mean they became Sikh, its like were a little insecure to now admit that other religions know the truth of god too?

To conclude, Sufism is obviously not orthodox Islam as Islam rejects Sufism itself, in my opinion, they are the Salok of sheik farid, who lived and died a Sufi sant musalmaan, Sheikh Ibrahim Sani was the successor of that Sufi Gaddi, but if they were his Salok he simply would of called them his Salok.

God dwells in all people of all faiths, they know truth about Akal purakh, if that is then written and added to the Guru Granth Sahib, does not mean they became a Sikh, the gurus met many people, not all turned to sikhi for e.g they say guru Nanak was "Hindus da guru, musalmana da peer" they claim guru Nanak to their own religion!

Lets not talk about historians then. Lets talk facts. Bring your source to prove that Bhagats were not Sikhs from their writings plus history.

1. Do you deny that all Bhagats met Guru Nanak Dev Ji?

2. How would you explain a fanatical Muslim (as you claim Sheikh Fareed was one) revering a "Kafir", Guru Nanak Dev and use un-Islamic terminology such as Guru, Saadh, etc.

3. Do you really believe people like Bhagat Kabir, Bhagat Fareed and Bhagat Ravidas were Muslims or Hindus? How can one be a Muslim when he rejects Hajj (Kabeer)?

4. Professor Khalil of Pakistan claims that a migrant to Punjab like Sheikh Fareed could not have written such Bani in Punjabi. Give proofs that the 12th century Sheikh Fareed, a non Punjabi, managed to write such poetry and so similar to the Punjabi of 300 years after of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Language evolves over 300 years, or will you now claim it does not ?

5. Did Sheikh Fareed write his Bani in Arabic script?

Don't believe things only because you read them on net, research history brother. Read Janamsakhis. Can you tell me what Janamsakhis say about Bhagat Ravidas, Bhagat Kabir and Guru Nanak? Where they met?

[Mehtab Singh]

Actually you bring up a valid point. In my school days I had Hindi as one of the languages taught in school, where we were taught religious couplet by various saints of India, which included Bhagat Kabeer Jee. Surprisingly, the kind of grammar/language used in those couplets is markedly different from the Shabads of Bhagat Kabeer Jee in Gurbani. Were there 2 Kabeers? Probably not, so this somehow clarifies for me that in fact Bhagat Kabeer Jee did go through some sort of transformation which is evidently reflected in the very grammar of his writings. What could it be? Was it him becoming a Sikh?

More ideas please...

[sikhiseeker]

WJKK WJKF,

Mehtab Singh,

I'm happy to hear you have the respect for some Sufi sant however again, you presume that the whole of India was against the Islamic invasion and all Indians were bruised from the struggle against it. In my opinion brother, this is wrong as some people accepted Islam voluntary and there was indeed issues of inequality as we both are aware. As this is my opinion, it is your opinion that Sufi sants in our gurbani were not the "type" of Sufi sant who would convert people to Islam, their is no such proof on this matter. A Sufi is a Sufi spreading the love of Allah as they see it. Why would a Sufi sant then not convert? In indian history, Islam flourished due to the Sufi movement.

Your point about the Salok of shiekh fareed being alongside gurmat, the Salok talk about hell and laying in a grave, being eaten by worms, also dust, which is at one point beneath you then above you, again when one is buried as per the Muslim right, these are not a concept from sikhi however more from the abrahamic faiths. I have mentioned these as they are not per gurmat.

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਖਾਕੁ ਨ ਨਿੰਦੀਐ ਖਾਕੂ ਜੇਡੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥

Fareedhaa Khaak N Nindheeai Khaakoo Jaedd N Koe ||

फरीदा खाकु न निंदीऐ खाकू जेडु न कोइ ॥

Fareed, do not slander the dust; noting is as great as dust.

ਵਾਲਹੁ ਨਿਕੀ ਪੁਰਸਲਾਤ ਕੰਨੀ ਨ ਸੁਣੀ ਆਇ ॥

Vaalahu Nikee Purasalaath Kannee N Sunee Aae ||

वालहु निकी पुरसलात कंनी न सुणी आइ ॥

The bridge to hell is narrower than a hair; haven't you heard of it with your ears?

ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਪੈਰਾ ਤਲੈ ਮੁਇਆ ਉਪਰਿ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੭॥

Jeevadhiaa Pairaa Thalai Mueiaa Oupar Hoe ||17||

जीवदिआ पैरा तलै मुइआ उपरि होइ ॥१७॥

When we are alive, it is under our feet, and when we are dead, it is above us. ||17||

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਮੈ ਭੋਲਾਵਾ ਪਗ ਦਾ ਮਤੁ ਮੈਲੀ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਇ ॥

Fareedhaa Mai Bholaavaa Pag Dhaa Math Mailee Hoe Jaae ||

फरीदा मै भोलावा पग दा मतु मैली होइ जाइ ॥

Fareed, I was worried that my turban might become dirty.

ਗਹਿਲਾ ਰੂਹੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਈ ਸਿਰੁ ਭੀ ਮਿਟੀ ਖਾਇ ॥੨੬॥

Gehilaa Roohu N Jaanee Sir Bhee Mittee Khaae ||26||

गहिला रूहु न जाणई सिरु भी मिटी खाइ ॥२६॥

My thoughtless self did not realize that one day, dust will consume my head as well. ||26||

ਪਾਸਿ ਦਮਾਮੇ ਛਤੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਭੇਰੀ ਸਡੋ ਰਡ ॥

Paas Dhamaamae Shhath Sir Bhaeree Saddo Radd ||

पासि दमामे छतु सिरि भेरी सडो रड ॥

Drums were beaten in their honor, there were canopies above their heads, and bugles announced their coming.

ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤੇ ਜੀਰਾਣ ਮਹਿ ਥੀਏ ਅਤੀਮਾ ਗਡ ॥੪੫॥

Jaae Suthae Jeeraan Mehi Thheeeae Atheemaa Gadd ||45||

जाइ सुते जीराण महि थीए अतीमा गड ॥४५॥

They have gone to sleep in the cemetary, buried like poor orphans. ||45||

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਇਟ ਸਿਰਾਣੇ ਭੁਇ ਸਵਣੁ ਕੀੜਾ ਲੜਿਓ ਮਾਸਿ ॥

Fareedhaa Eitt Siraanae Bhue Savan Keerraa Larriou Maas ||

फरीदा इट सिराणे भुइ सवणु कीड़ा लड़िओ मासि ॥

Fareed, a stone will be your pillow, and the earth will be your bed. The worms shall eat into your flesh.

Also, as I have stated in my previous posts, im aware Sufism is not in accordance to orthodox Islam, however the Sufi community still see themselves as Muslims. Just like us Sikhs now having many Rehat Maryade and jathebandi, we all see ourselves as Sikhs rite? The Sufi sant in Shiri Guru Granth Sahib were no different from the other Sufi preachers of Islam, the Uch de Peer still today are Muslim, even though some do not cut their kesh out of the respect of the gurus house, but they are still Muslim according to their own Rehat.

As I said, other religions also know truth about Akal purakh, to think no other religion out there has any truth and does not know any beauty of pramaatma, is a very confined notion to have. I am not saying all other religions are right, but I cannot say that they do not know any truth at all. The logic behind sikhi was the creation of the Khalsa, Akal purakhs fauj, to fight for justice for the world, our enemy was never Islam, but the Mughal Regime that used force against some ones will and bring down the inequality against one another. That was the logic behind sikhi and why it was needed!

Dhan Dhan bhai gurdas ji said "Nanak Nirmal Panth Chalaya" because Shiri guru Nanak did lol, but again as Sikhs do we not say keep strong to the faith you were born in? Or Mehtab Singh do you think we should start converting masses of people because sikhi has the monoply on Akal purakh because their faith is inadequate and not fully nirmal as you said? It doesn't work like that my brother, god dwells within all, if your Muslim be the best muslim, if your Christian, be the best Christian, its about devotion to your faith and respect to the other faith for pramaatma is within all living beings and in mass. We dont need to go round saying to another person if a different faith, your faith is not nirmal and ours is, were better than you!

Again, just because the bhagats and sheikhs bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not in no way mean they became a Sikh.

Sheikh Baba Fareed lived and died a Muslim, converting people to Islam as per the Sufi Rehat to which he lived by, which knows some truth of Akal purakh waheguru and our purpose for being born in human jhoon.

WJKK WJKF

[acsap]

Again, just because the bhagats and sheikhs bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not in no way mean they became a Sikh.

Sheikh Baba Fareed lived and died a Muslim, converting people to Islam as per the Sufi Rehat to which he lived by, which knows some truth of Akal purakh waheguru and our purpose for being born in human jhoon.

WJKK WJKF

If people in the Indian subcontinent converted mostly due to Sufism, then why is number of Sufi Muslims so small in India and Pakistan.