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Moved Discussion - Sufism

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Tiwanas claim their ancestry from Raja Bhoj (Parmar Rajput Clan) who ruled India and had capital at Bhojpur in Madhya Pradesh, India. It is believed that Tiwanas settled in the Punjab region, in search for a fertile lands after the fall of Parmar kingdom. During the Bhakti movement in the 15th century, they followed Guru Nanak's {Founder of Sikhism} teachings and became Sikhs at the time.

Those who settled in the western Punjab became Muslims by accepting Islam at the hands of Hazrat Baba Fariduddin Ganjshakar. Commonly known as Baba Farid (ਬਾਬਾ ਫ਼ਰੀਦ), he was a 12th century Sufi preacher and saint of Punjab

Thanks veerji. I am not denying your facts or knowledge. Just trying to emphasize the point that the saints whose Bani our Guru Sahibaan included in Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj were not the kind of convert-seeking proselytizers of another faith. Perhaps we're getting confused here as there was more than one Baba Fareed over the centuries?
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Many historians like to put there opinion on things and don't present the history for what it is. Like how they stamp the caste on Sikhs to demonstrate how that particular caste had gave more kurbaani, or fought more valiantly than other castes in their own opinion, If it was Sheikh Ibrahim Sani, then the Salok would of been " Salok Sheikh Ibrahim Sani ". I am aware that he was the successor of the Sufi Gaddi, however I said sheikh fareed was devout, did convert people to Islam and was a Muslim to do so, he was fanatical about god but the Sufi path of Islam is very different to that of orthodox Islam. Thats why there is no obligation to using in-Islamic terms in the Salok. If you research the Sufi path, you will see how different it actually is, Quwalli is a product of Sufism, which would be strictly against sharia for orthodox Muslim right? Sufi ustaad, like the late Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan had no issue singing the shabad of Guru Gobind Singh and Bhagat Ravidass all in a Gurdwara, did that make him Sikh too?

Its abit concerning that today us Sikhs feel the need to stamp anyone a Sikh who has had any affiliation with gurus or if there bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib. I think this stems from Dhan Dhan bhai Mardhana, as he spent so much time with Guru Nanak Dev Ji. But just because someone else's bani who belongs to another religion i in our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not mean they became Sikh, its like were a little insecure to now admit that other religions know the truth of god too?

To conclude, Sufism is obviously not orthodox Islam as Islam rejects Sufism itself, in my opinion, they are the Salok of sheik farid, who lived and died a Sufi sant musalmaan, Sheikh Ibrahim Sani was the successor of that Sufi Gaddi, but if they were his Salok he simply would of called them his Salok.

God dwells in all people of all faiths, they know truth about Akal purakh, if that is then written and added to the Guru Granth Sahib, does not mean they became a Sikh, the gurus met many people, not all turned to sikhi for e.g they say guru Nanak was "Hindus da guru, musalmana da peer" they claim guru Nanak to their own religion!

Lets not talk about historians then. Lets talk facts. Bring your source to prove that Bhagats were not Sikhs from their writings plus history.

1. Do you deny that all Bhagats met Guru Nanak Dev Ji?

2. How would you explain a fanatical Muslim (as you claim Sheikh Fareed was one) revering a "Kafir", Guru Nanak Dev and use un-Islamic terminology such as Guru, Saadh, etc.

3. Do you really believe people like Bhagat Kabir, Bhagat Fareed and Bhagat Ravidas were Muslims or Hindus? How can one be a Muslim when he rejects Hajj (Kabeer)?

4. Professor Khalil of Pakistan claims that a migrant to Punjab like Sheikh Fareed could not have written such Bani in Punjabi. Give proofs that the 12th century Sheikh Fareed, a non Punjabi, managed to write such poetry and so similar to the Punjabi of 300 years after of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Language evolves over 300 years, or will you now claim it does not ?

5. Did Sheikh Fareed write his Bani in Arabic script?

Don't believe things only because you read them on net, research history brother. Read Janamsakhis. Can you tell me what Janamsakhis say about Bhagat Ravidas, Bhagat Kabir and Guru Nanak? Where they met?

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Actually you bring up a valid point. In my school days I had Hindi as one of the languages taught in school, where we were taught religious couplet by various saints of India, which included Bhagat Kabeer Jee. Surprisingly, the kind of grammar/language used in those couplets is markedly different from the Shabads of Bhagat Kabeer Jee in Gurbani. Were there 2 Kabeers? Probably not, so this somehow clarifies for me that in fact Bhagat Kabeer Jee did go through some sort of transformation which is evidently reflected in the very grammar of his writings. What could it be? Was it him becoming a Sikh?

More ideas please...

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WJKK WJKF,

Mehtab Singh,

I'm happy to hear you have the respect for some Sufi sant however again, you presume that the whole of India was against the Islamic invasion and all Indians were bruised from the struggle against it. In my opinion brother, this is wrong as some people accepted Islam voluntary and there was indeed issues of inequality as we both are aware. As this is my opinion, it is your opinion that Sufi sants in our gurbani were not the "type" of Sufi sant who would convert people to Islam, their is no such proof on this matter. A Sufi is a Sufi spreading the love of Allah as they see it. Why would a Sufi sant then not convert? In indian history, Islam flourished due to the Sufi movement.

Your point about the Salok of shiekh fareed being alongside gurmat, the Salok talk about hell and laying in a grave, being eaten by worms, also dust, which is at one point beneath you then above you, again when one is buried as per the Muslim right, these are not a concept from sikhi however more from the abrahamic faiths. I have mentioned these as they are not per gurmat.

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਖਾਕੁ ਨ ਨਿੰਦੀਐ ਖਾਕੂ ਜੇਡੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥

Fareedhaa Khaak N Nindheeai Khaakoo Jaedd N Koe ||

फरीदा खाकु न निंदीऐ खाकू जेडु न कोइ ॥

Fareed, do not slander the dust; noting is as great as dust.

ਵਾਲਹੁ ਨਿਕੀ ਪੁਰਸਲਾਤ ਕੰਨੀ ਨ ਸੁਣੀ ਆਇ ॥

Vaalahu Nikee Purasalaath Kannee N Sunee Aae ||

वालहु निकी पुरसलात कंनी न सुणी आइ ॥

The bridge to hell is narrower than a hair; haven't you heard of it with your ears?

ਜੀਵਦਿਆ ਪੈਰਾ ਤਲੈ ਮੁਇਆ ਉਪਰਿ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੭॥

Jeevadhiaa Pairaa Thalai Mueiaa Oupar Hoe ||17||

जीवदिआ पैरा तलै मुइआ उपरि होइ ॥१७॥

When we are alive, it is under our feet, and when we are dead, it is above us. ||17||

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਮੈ ਭੋਲਾਵਾ ਪਗ ਦਾ ਮਤੁ ਮੈਲੀ ਹੋਇ ਜਾਇ ॥

Fareedhaa Mai Bholaavaa Pag Dhaa Math Mailee Hoe Jaae ||

फरीदा मै भोलावा पग दा मतु मैली होइ जाइ ॥

Fareed, I was worried that my turban might become dirty.

ਗਹਿਲਾ ਰੂਹੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਈ ਸਿਰੁ ਭੀ ਮਿਟੀ ਖਾਇ ॥੨੬॥

Gehilaa Roohu N Jaanee Sir Bhee Mittee Khaae ||26||

गहिला रूहु न जाणई सिरु भी मिटी खाइ ॥२६॥

My thoughtless self did not realize that one day, dust will consume my head as well. ||26||

ਪਾਸਿ ਦਮਾਮੇ ਛਤੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਭੇਰੀ ਸਡੋ ਰਡ ॥

Paas Dhamaamae Shhath Sir Bhaeree Saddo Radd ||

पासि दमामे छतु सिरि भेरी सडो रड ॥

Drums were beaten in their honor, there were canopies above their heads, and bugles announced their coming.

ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤੇ ਜੀਰਾਣ ਮਹਿ ਥੀਏ ਅਤੀਮਾ ਗਡ ॥੪੫॥

Jaae Suthae Jeeraan Mehi Thheeeae Atheemaa Gadd ||45||

जाइ सुते जीराण महि थीए अतीमा गड ॥४५॥

They have gone to sleep in the cemetary, buried like poor orphans. ||45||

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਇਟ ਸਿਰਾਣੇ ਭੁਇ ਸਵਣੁ ਕੀੜਾ ਲੜਿਓ ਮਾਸਿ ॥

Fareedhaa Eitt Siraanae Bhue Savan Keerraa Larriou Maas ||

फरीदा इट सिराणे भुइ सवणु कीड़ा लड़िओ मासि ॥

Fareed, a stone will be your pillow, and the earth will be your bed. The worms shall eat into your flesh.

Also, as I have stated in my previous posts, im aware Sufism is not in accordance to orthodox Islam, however the Sufi community still see themselves as Muslims. Just like us Sikhs now having many Rehat Maryade and jathebandi, we all see ourselves as Sikhs rite? The Sufi sant in Shiri Guru Granth Sahib were no different from the other Sufi preachers of Islam, the Uch de Peer still today are Muslim, even though some do not cut their kesh out of the respect of the gurus house, but they are still Muslim according to their own Rehat.

As I said, other religions also know truth about Akal purakh, to think no other religion out there has any truth and does not know any beauty of pramaatma, is a very confined notion to have. I am not saying all other religions are right, but I cannot say that they do not know any truth at all. The logic behind sikhi was the creation of the Khalsa, Akal purakhs fauj, to fight for justice for the world, our enemy was never Islam, but the Mughal Regime that used force against some ones will and bring down the inequality against one another. That was the logic behind sikhi and why it was needed!

Dhan Dhan bhai gurdas ji said "Nanak Nirmal Panth Chalaya" because Shiri guru Nanak did lol, but again as Sikhs do we not say keep strong to the faith you were born in? Or Mehtab Singh do you think we should start converting masses of people because sikhi has the monoply on Akal purakh because their faith is inadequate and not fully nirmal as you said? It doesn't work like that my brother, god dwells within all, if your Muslim be the best muslim, if your Christian, be the best Christian, its about devotion to your faith and respect to the other faith for pramaatma is within all living beings and in mass. We dont need to go round saying to another person if a different faith, your faith is not nirmal and ours is, were better than you!

Again, just because the bhagats and sheikhs bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not in no way mean they became a Sikh.

Sheikh Baba Fareed lived and died a Muslim, converting people to Islam as per the Sufi Rehat to which he lived by, which knows some truth of Akal purakh waheguru and our purpose for being born in human jhoon.

WJKK WJKF

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Again, just because the bhagats and sheikhs bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not in no way mean they became a Sikh.

Sheikh Baba Fareed lived and died a Muslim, converting people to Islam as per the Sufi Rehat to which he lived by, which knows some truth of Akal purakh waheguru and our purpose for being born in human jhoon.

WJKK WJKF

If people in the Indian subcontinent converted mostly due to Sufism, then why is number of Sufi Muslims so small in India and Pakistan.

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Again, just because the bhagats and sheikhs bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not in no way mean they became

If people in the Indian subcontinent converted mostly due to Sufism, then why is number of Sufi Muslims so small in India and Pakistan.

The original topic was about the Mughals, to which a discussion started on Sufism which contributed to the conversion numbers of Islam. I'm not sure of the specific percentage of the Sufi population of in both India and Pakistan, however history tells us Mughal and Sufi converted Indians. The Sufi didn't go to India site seeing for a holiday lol. Its was to spread the doctrine of Islam via the Sufi method other to that of the Mughal regime.

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Lets not talk about historians then. Lets talk facts. Bring your source to prove that Bhagats were not Sikhs from their writings plus history.

1. Do you deny that all Bhagats met Guru Nanak Dev Ji?

2. How would you explain a fanatical Muslim (as you claim Sheikh Fareed was one) revering a "Kafir", Guru Nanak Dev and use un-Islamic terminology such as Guru, Saadh, etc.

3. Do you really believe people like Bhagat Kabir, Bhagat Fareed and Bhagat Ravidas were Muslims or Hindus? How can one be a Muslim when he rejects Hajj (Kabeer)?

4. Professor Khalil of Pakistan claims that a migrant to Punjab like Sheikh Fareed could not have written such Bani in Punjabi. Give proofs that the 12th century Sheikh Fareed, a non Punjabi, managed to write such poetry and so similar to the Punjabi of 300 years after of Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Language evolves over 300 years, or will you now claim it does not ?

5. Did Sheikh Fareed write his Bani in Arabic script?

Don't believe things only because you read them on net, research history brother. Read Janamsakhis. Can you tell me what Janamsakhis say about Bhagat Ravidas, Bhagat Kabir and Guru Nanak? Where they met?

WJKK WJKF,

1) whether or not Shiri Guru Nanak Dev ji met all the bhagats in Shiri Guru Granth Sahib has got no relevance to the topic however, just because someone met our Guru, does not mean they became a Sikh. Our Guru met many people, many who claim he is of their religious fold like the Muslims, so obviously they never converted to sikhi in order to say he was a Muslim.

2) sheikh baba fareed was a Sufi Muslim. It differs very much from orthodox Islam and as discussed with my brother Mehtab Singh and I, even the orthodox Muslims do not condone Sufism. The approach of Sufism is totally different to the kafir as you so rightly state, as similarity is explored and held on to rather than the difference. I'm not sure if you have read Sufi Kalaam but it is very interesting at least for the beautiful words they use in the name if god. A Sufi sant is the same equivalent to our guru for Sufi musalmaan. When they started to preach in India, do you think they would use their mother tongue or speak the language of the land? Like our Shiri Guru Nanak, would he have spoke Panjabi in Bagdad?

3) Again just because the sheikhs and bhagats bani is in our gurbani does not make them Sikh, i think that it demonstrates our insecurity in the sense that we have to stamp someone a Sikh if they know some truth of pramaatma. We are now claiming these people to be if our fold, like how the Hindus and Muslims did to Shiri Guru Nanak. Again, the Rehat of the Sunni and Shea are two very different things. One rejects hajj, one rejects Ali, one rejects shrines, one rejects the peer.......so on and on and on yet they all believe their Muslim! Very similar to us "UNITED" sikhs, yes/no to Shri Dasam Granth, yes/no to meat, this jathebandi, numerous Rehat Maryade so on and on and on, but we all believe were Sikhs.

4) I have no proof against the claim of the Professor Khalil of Pakistan, however Shiri Guru Gobind Singh also wrote the beautiful, exquisite Zafarnama in Persian verse which was not his mother tongue but obviously was one of the languages he could speak and write. The beauty of the language which is written, is devised from the beauty of that mind that perceives it to be written, from at which initial point that perception is given, by Shiri Akal purakh, I obviously cant say that language does not evolve over a period of time, however the Salok of shiekh fareed are in our gurbani, it's not a conspiracy.

5) The bani I know and love of baba shiekh fareed is in our Guru Granth Sahib which I put my faith in as it is my guru, whether it was in Arabic/ Greek/ Latin before makes no difference to me.

I tried to answer your questions fully, I have three young children and work full time so sorry I took so long, everyday is a rush.

However its a little insulting for you to suggest to me not to believe in everything I read off the internet and to also ask me if I have read and have any knowledge of janam sakhis of various bhagats. If you are so knowledgeable and have been granted gian from our guru, why would you pose such a question in the stated language? it is not in a Sikhs character to try and ridicule or patronise someone as sheikh baba farid Salok states ;

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਜੇ ਤੂ ਅਕਲਿ ਲਤੀਫੁ ਕਾਲੇ ਲਿਖੁ ਨ ਲੇਖ ॥

Fareedhaa Jae Thoo Akal Latheef Kaalae Likh N Laekh ||

फरीदा जे तू अकलि लतीफु काले लिखु न लेख ॥

Fareed, if you have a keen understanding, then do not write black marks against anyone else.

ਆਪਨੜੇ ਗਿਰੀਵਾਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਨੀਵਾਂ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੁ ॥੬॥

Aapanarrae Gireevaan Mehi Sir Nanaeevaan Kar Dhaekh ||6||

आपनड़े गिरीवान महि सिरु नींवां करि देखु ॥६॥

Look underneath your own collar instead. ||6||

WJKK WJKF

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Please search "Farid" on these pages:

http://www.searchsikhism.com/101.html

http://www.searchsikhism.com/102.html


Also, please care to explain the following by Bhagat Fareed Jee

ਬੋਲੀਐ ਸਚੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲੀਐ ॥
So speak the Truth, in righteousness, and do not speak falsehood.

ਜੋ ਗੁਰੁ ਦਸੈ ਵਾਟ ਮੁਰੀਦਾ ਜੋਲੀਐ ॥੩॥
The disciple ought to travel the route, pointed out by the Guru. ||3||

Ang 488


ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਮੇਲੀ ॥
In His Mercy, God has united me with the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.

ਜਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਅਲਹੁ ਬੇਲੀ ॥੩॥
And when I look again, then I find God as my Helper. ||3||

Ang 794

A Sufi Muslim who intends to bring others to Islam uses words like ਗੁਰੁ and ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ . What does that infer? My entire point from the beginning has been to trying to understand Bhagat Fareed Jee's Bani and then concluding if it sounds like a person who could be (a.) following anything other than Gurmat, (b.) bringing others to the fold of anything but Gurmat.

Thanks

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Please search "Farid" on these pages:

http://www.searchsikhism.com/101.html

http://www.searchsikhism.com/102.html

Also, please care to explain the following by Bhagat Fareed Jee

ਬੋਲੀਐ ਸਚੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਝੂਠੁ ਨ ਬੋਲੀਐ ॥

So speak the Truth, in righteousness, and do not speak falsehood.

ਜੋ ਗੁਰੁ ਦਸੈ ਵਾਟ ਮੁਰੀਦਾ ਜੋਲੀਐ ॥੩॥

The disciple ought to travel the route, pointed out by the Guru. ||3||

Ang 488

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਮੇਲੀ ॥

In His Mercy, God has united me with the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.

ਜਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਅਲਹੁ ਬੇਲੀ ॥੩॥

And when I look again, then I find God as my Helper. ||3||

Ang 794

A Sufi Muslim who intends to bring others to Islam uses words like ਗੁਰੁ and ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ . What does that infer? My entire point from the beginning has been to trying to understand Bhagat Fareed Jee's Bani and then concluding if it sounds like a person who could be (a.) following anything other than Gurmat, (b.) bringing others to the fold of anything but Gurmat.

Thanks

Mehtab Singh ji, I understand your point, but still don't see the point of calling someone a Sikh just because their scripture was added to SGGS, you provided me examples of language used which is not of a Islamic nature by a Sufi sant, I provided you with language and religious references of Islamic nature by a Sufi sant. As you have provided me with some links to references, I will definitely have a read and thank you for that.

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Lets not beat around the bush brother. Prof Khalil Nazmi is the current head of Sheikh Fareeds sect in Pakistan. He certainly has more authority to speak on that subject and he mentions the fact that Bhagat Fareed Sani was influenced by Guru Nanak Sahib to the extent that he started using these unIslamic terms. McAuliffe is another historian who talks of Fareed being Fareed Sani.

This line of Bhagat Fareed clarifies that he was not the first one of the order but one of the descendants, successors:

ਜਿਸੁ ਆਸਣਿ ਹਮ ਬੈਠੇ ਕੇਤੇ ਬੈਸਿ ਗਇਆ ॥੫॥
That seat, upon which we now sit - many others sat on it and have since departed.

(488, Bhagat Fareed Ji)

Secondly, which Guru is Bhagat Fareed telling us to follow?

ਜੋ ਗੁਰੁ ਦਸੈ ਵਾਟ ਮੁਰੀਦਾ ਜੋਲੀਐ ॥

No one has said that meeting someone equals to converting, but being influenced to an extent that you adopt their religious vocabulary does show something.

Others than that, it would be improper to class people who reject even the basic pillars of Islam as Muslims. Thats just an excuse for to increase the 'beauty' of the otherwise not so beautiful Islam. Its like saying one can be a Sikh while not following the Gurus word. A religion is flexible but there are certain foundations on which it stands, you can't change those. So stop saying Sufi Islam this and Sufi Islam that.

There are no insecurities brother, we just want to be historically correct - enough misinformation is widespread already.

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With all due respect to all my brothers, what I fail to understand is that when Guru Sahib rejects the most basic tenets of both Hinduism and Islam,wouldn't it be improper for us, as His Sikhs, to say that He added Banis of those same Hindus/Muslims to Gurbani?

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Lol, mehtab Singh/sikh kosh, if professor Khalil nazmi is the head of the sufi sect of sheikh fareed now, why are they still Muslims of as you both state they are sikhs of the guru, if they are sikhs of the guru should they of not taken the amrit of Guru Nanak ji in his tenth form? As sikh kosh you stated dhan guru Nanak was a companion of sheikh Ibrahim. To adopt another groups language and terms means what exactly? That their then alittle bit more sikh than they are Muslim? As you said, professor Khalil has more right to speak on the matter of his sect, but I'd love to hear him answer your and mehtab singhs question or answer really " you must be sikh sir, because your sheikh before you has bani in our SGGS and you are no Muslim as you are a sufi " I live in the uk, work around Christian Holidays, give Chrishtian Holiday greeting cards to my neighbours and I speak English also using Christian Terms, dear lord am I becoming a Christian to brother?

Also brother why should I stop saying "sufi Islam this", "sufi Islam that"? Because you think it is not apart of Islam? Why don't you ask a sufi MUSLIM what religion he is apart of. Why do you have the right to say they are not Muslim because they do not follow the basic tenets of Islam? Like I stated before, us sikhs have many a different understanding with one another, we can't even discuss meat on this site however can easily discuss caste. But hey, we're all great sikhs!

Also, it sounds like really, it's not the debate about sheikh fareed which is getting you irrate, however your intolerance of Islam and that you cannot accept the bani of sheikh farid is written by a Sufi Muslim, because really you can't accept that a MUSLIM from Islam knows some truth about Akal Purakh, hence why your need to stamp him a sikh and to reinsure yourself "it's ok"

Mehtab Singh, when Shiri guru Nanak dev rejected Islam and Hinduism and why still have Muslim/Hindu scribes in the SGGS, again because it is the beauty and truth behind the gian what's been written! Let them be Hindu and Muslim, for Akal Purakh knows truth about everything and other religions also know some truth about waheguru, hence the Hindu and Muslim scribe in iur SGGS.

WJKK WJKF

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I leave you this beautifully sung shabad, by sufi Muslims via the musical medium of sufi quwali in a gurdwara in the uk. The late Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, so blessed by waheguru.

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Fanatic Islamic forces did quite well around the world converting people by force,

Either convert or die,

UKL = Agreed so far Paji

however the sufi sant movement, with their devotional singing enchanting people hearts and minds focused on the similarity of the all pervading god with the people of the Indus, not the difference. They sang of the one gods love spreading the Ideology of equality of his creation. Rather than having a sword on your neck and being told to convert, these sufi sant were able to convert masses of Indians with this approach such as dhan dhan baba sheikh fareed!

UKL = Paji in actual fact the conversion of likely around 99% was initially done by the "convert or die" method, however, what certain supposedly syncretic Sufi orders did do on behalf of the Mughal Empire was mop up the new converts so that with time the new converts genuinely started to believe in Islam, given the similarities the supposedly Sufi orders that worked mainly at the behest and invitation of the Mughal Empire accentuated. Of course, later on Aurangzeb did realise that the Mughals had let go of their own Islamic central authority by giving too much latitude to certain elements who did not follow the most traditional of Muslim practices shall we say.

sheikh baba fared was a Sufi sant musalmaan, he was never a Sikh.

UKL = Not so Paji. Dhan Dhan Baba Faird Ji Maharaj was absolutely Sikh (by living according to Gurmat and himself expounding Gurmat). The fact that he was born of Muslim ancestry does not prevent Baba Farid Ji Maharaj from being accepted as a Sikh. After all it is only the enemies of the Sikhs that make up lies regarding Bhai Mardani Ji who was the first Sikh to come to Sikhi in Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's time.

What type of Sufi sant was he? The one that doesn't preach Islam?

UKL = Many Sufi orders were and are regarded as non-Muslim. In that they believe in one God, as Sikhs do, but similar to Sikhs they also reject the de facto deification of Prophet Muhammad who is accepted historically as having been a slavetrader and peadophile according to modern definitions (the Prophet was 54 when his child bride Aisha had her marriage consummated with him at age 9). It is this rejection of Prophet Muhammad as the ultimate human role model for humanity that clearly shows the Baba Farid were not Muslim. They called people to worship one God and by so doing they cannot be classified as Muslim. As believing in Islam or being Muslim must be accompanied by support of the Prophet's slave trading, cold blooded murder of innocents as well as support for the age at which Prophet Muhammad consummated his marriage with Aisha (when she was 9). Those Sufi orders which are openly declared as non-Muslims refuse to accept Prophet Muhammad as the greatest example of a human being ever given to mankind given his personal lifestyle.

Not all Hindu people converted to Islam forcefully, many must of converted through their own choice, after the inequality of the Hindu hierarchy, many through the Sufi sant movement even after the repeated Islamic invasions as you mentioned.

UKL = It should be borne in mind that the Hindu's were initially converted overwhelmingly by the sword (with the exception of so-called high caste converts who were in cahoots with the Mughal Empire as collaborators) and syncretic Sufi orders followed afterwards (at the invitation of the Mughals) to keep the newly converted flock within Islam. Pakistani Punjabi's always forget that prior to their ancestors perhaps voluntarily accepting Sufi Muslims (in contrast to plain Sufi's that are not Muslim) their ancestors were always initially brought into Islam via threat of the sword. For example, if a descendent of forcibly converted Muslims join a Sufi Muslim strain three generations later it does not delete the forcibly converted history or imply that Sufi Muslims bought Islam to most of the sub-continents Muslims! And of course we must not confuse true Sufi Sants (non-Muslims) with Sufi Muslims.

Check any history written on baba sheikh fareed and it writes he converted people obviously to Islam as he wasn't a Hindu. He was Muslim.

UKL = Paji these histories written by the Mughals paid authors are worthless. They are written by the same authors that spout such vile lies against our Guru Sahib. So for them to claim Baba Farid Ji as being Muslim is to be expected. We as Sikhs should not fall for such claptrap! These same crooked authors claim Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj were Hindu despite Bhagat Namdev Ji explicity stating in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj that "Hindu anna, Turk (Mussalmaan) kaana".

Nice piece of research however just because the saloks were added into our Guru Granth Sahib does not mean they became Sikh. They wrote simple truth of Akal purakh, the same for Bhagat Ravidass Ji and Bhagat Kabir ji. These never became Sikhs.

UKL = Dhan Dhan Kabir Ji Maharaj and Dhan Dhan Ravidas Ji Maharaj were already Sikh by virtue of their ideology and actions and categorically so. They didn't need to become Sikhs as they already were Sikhs (as was Baba Farid Ji Maharaj).

They just knew sach. Sheikh baba fareed is a Sufi sant musalmaan, which is not along the same line of orthodox Islam, for e.g the singing of devotional hymns, the swirling dervish all stemming from Rumi. However they were musalmaan

UKL = Not so Paji as those Sufi's that did not accept the personal lifestyle of Prophet Muhammad in relation to the slave trading, mass murders and paedophilia the Prophet Muhammad engaged in were simply not accepted as Muslims even though they believed, as we do, in one God (Ik Onkar).

just how us Sikhs have now many jathebandi and paths and Rehat Maryada. We all claim were Sikh,

UKL = I don't agree with your analogy Paji. For example, can anybody be Sikh if we reject the personal life lived by Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj?

just as sheikh baba farid is Muslim even though his Rehat is different to the other main stream Muslim Rehat.

UKL = Dhan Dhan Baba Farid Ji was Sikh and certainly a non-Muslim as shown above Paji. Also Paji don't believe the hype by some Muslim Jatts about their Tiwana ancestors converting to Sufi Islam under so and so's influence, as all of Pakistan claims to have been converted by Sufi's as it's hard for them to admit their own ancestors were killed, raped and threatened into surrendering to Islam.

buried and enshrined as per their SUFI MUSLIM REHAT.

UKL = Not so Paji. Tombs constructed by the Mughals to claim the legacy of greats like Dhan Dhan Baba Farid Ji Maharaj do not prove that they were Muslim. Those tombs were specifically and politically constructed by the Mughals to detach Baba Farid Ji's memory away from anti-Islamism (which is what rejection of Prophet Muhammad actions amounts to) and claiming it for political purposes as an Islamic legacy. Remember the same thing was done in Iraq with Gursikh (Pir) Bahlol's tomb because it was politically inconvenient for the rulers to admit that there were those in Iraq who accepted the truth of Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's world expounded Truth of Ik Onkar, (Kirat Karo, Naam Japo, Vand Chhako).

Many historians like to put there opinion on things and don't present the history for what it is. Like how they stamp the caste on Sikhs to demonstrate how that particular caste had gave more kurbaani, or fought more valiantly than other castes in their own opinion,

UKL = Paji, GurSikhs have no caste (as you rightly stated on another thread). However, as a minor amateur student of Sikh history knowing the original parental ancestries of our most famous Gurmukhs proves one thing beyond doubt ... that all ancestries were represented commensurately (no monoploy over Qurbani exists within our Qaum as opposed to the Qureshi and Kshatriya domination of Islam and Hinduism) ... and that just because KP Gill, General Brar, Dhillon of the Radha Swami's and Sidhu of Dera Sirsa are all proud Jatts like the 80% of Jatts who are Muslims in Pakistan and Hindu in India such as Sajjan Kumar and the 1st Prime Minister of Pakistan ... the Sikh Qaum's Heere do not similarly come from the same background ... as foremost marker about the Khalsa Panth is total rejection of caste affiliation.

If it was Sheikh Ibrahim Sani, then the Salok would of been " Salok Sheikh Ibrahim Sani ". I am aware that he was the successor of the Sufi Gaddi

UKL = Your acceptance of the Sufi Gaddi is key Paji. As just as our Guru Sahib can be the "10"th Nanak (for example) so was Baba Farid Ji. However, by the time of Gurbani's Baba Farid Ji Maharaj Prophet Muhammad's ideology of slavery, rape, murder and paedophilia had been rejected in entireity.

however I said sheikh fareed was devout, did convert people to Islam and was a Muslim to do so,

UKL = Not so Paji. Why would we as Sikhs extol the virtues of those that believe (as Islam does) that non-Muslims go to Hell and the Prophet Muhammad's lifestyle as the ultimate role model for humankind to follow? Baba Farid Ji Maharaj was not Muslim and it's hurtful that Sikhs have been conned into believing this narrative.

Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan had no issue singing the shabad of Guru Gobind Singh and Bhagat Ravidass all in a Gurdwara, did that make him Sikh too?

UKL = Paji entertainers do that for money especially those Sufi's that actually regard themselves as Muslims and accept Prophet Muhammad as the ultimate role model for mankind. However, if Nsrat Fateh Ali Khan was to disavow the second line of the Muslim shahadah he would no longer be a Muslim. However, all those who bow before Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj are indeed Sikhs and a family surname coming from the Mongolian word "Khan" does not debar someone from being Sikh.

Its abit concerning that today us Sikhs feel the need to stamp anyone a Sikh who has had any affiliation with gurus or if there bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib. I think this stems from Dhan Dhan bhai Mardhana, as he spent so much time with Guru Nanak Dev Ji. But just because someone else's bani who belongs to another religion i in our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not mean they became Sikh, its like were a little insecure to now admit that other religions know the truth of god too?

UKL = Paji, i find it distressing that Sikhs think of our greatest contributors to Gurbani as being Hindu's and Muslims when those same elevated souls so bravely rejected Islam and Hinduism and all that those two big religions stand for. Bhai Mardana Ji was the 1st Sikh of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's era. What's more is that both Bhai Mardana's sons were devout Gursikhs as well (yet we have crooked Pakistani's claiming that Bhai Mardana as an ancestor in order to make money off gullible Sikhs. The Pakistani's who lie about their ancestry are just as crooked as those rotten Bedi's in Punjab like Khemu Ram Bedi and Amitabh Bachchan who claim they are descended from Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj).

God dwells in all people of all faiths,

UKL = Agreed. But it does not equate that ideologies such as Nazism, Satanism, Racism etc are as equally valid as Sikhi. In Sikhi there is no place for slavery nor the murder of innocents nor peadophilia.

they say guru Nanak was "Hindus da guru, musalmana da peer" they claim guru Nanak to their own religion!

UKL = The 1st generation of Sikhs was virtually 50/50 with Sikhs whose parents were from a Muslim and Hindu Background originally. But the Hindu (Guru) and Muslim (Pir) was actually an invention of Mughal writers to claim that only Hindu's accepted Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj as their Guru when we all know, not least from Bhai Mardana Ji the 1st Sikh, that Guru Nanak was the Jagat Guru for the whole world regardless of a Sikh's parents religion.

In indian history, Islam flourished due to the Sufi movement.

UKL = Paji the above is the Pakistani version of events. The truth is Islam was enforced on the subject populace by the sword alone. Mughal backed strands of syncretic Sufism then herded the new lock mentally into the mentality of Islam. However, true Sufi's like Baba Farid Ji Maharaj rejected the central tenet of Islam (faith in Prophet Muhammad and respect for his life history)

As I said, other religions also know truth about Akal purakh, to think no other religion out there has any truth

UKL = I don't think any Sikh believes that Paji. Sikhi accepts that only our actions distinguish between us as human beings and good people do indeed come from all faith backgrounds (and none).

and does not know any beauty of pramaatma, is a very confined notion to have.

UKL = No Sikh would ever say that Paji.

I am not saying all other religions are right, but I cannot say that they do not know any truth at all.

UKL = All Sikhs agree with you on that Paji i'm sure.

The logic behind sikhi was the creation of the Khalsa, Akal purakhs fauj, to fight for justice for the world, our enemy was never Islam, but the Mughal Regime that used force against some ones will and bring down the inequality against one another. That was the logic behind sikhi and why it was needed!

UKL = Agreed Paji. But as Sikhs we cannot shy away from condemning slavery, murder of innocents and paedophilia just because the Prophet Muhammad partook in the same and such actions are justified in the Holy Quran. Of course, I will be the first to accept that there are millions of good Muslims who live a better life than me as a poor example for a self-proclaimed Sikh. Certain Muslims can be better than individual so-called Sikhs. However, one ideology which condones slavery in the Quran and Gurmat which bitterly opposes Slavery are two totally incomparable ideologies.

but again as Sikhs do we not say keep strong to the faith you were born in?

UKL = Personally, i despair of that mentality within Sikhs of encouraging people to stay in the religion they were born. We lock tens of millions of Sikhs out of the Panth by exactly that ideology of let Muslims be good Muslims and Hindu's be good Hindu's. If both Islam and Hinduism justify the oppression of the weak via the Quran and Manu Smrit explicitly, why should we applaud that. We should encourage fundamentally good people to free themselves mentally and spiritually so that everyone believes in Sarbat Da Bhala (rather than thinking that non-believers will burn in Hell etc).

Or Mehtab Singh do you think we should start converting masses of people because sikhi has the monoply on Akal purakh because their faith is inadequate and not fully nirmal as you said?

UKL = No I don't think any Sikh believes in forcible mass conversion as Islam, Christianity and even Manuvadi Hinduism have propagated. However, it is certainly encumbent upon us Sikhs to do more parchaar so that there is greater population of those working for Sarbat Da Bhala (welfare of entire humanity).

god dwells within all,

UKL = Agreed.

if your Muslim be the best muslim, if your Christian, be the best Christian,

UKL = Which imho is tantamount to saying that Sikhi is de facto an ethnic faith for only 0.4% of the human population (which I strongly disagree with).

UKL = Not saying you Paji but some also assume Sikhi that Sikhi is only for Punjabi's until they hear that four of the Panj Pyaaray were non-Punjabi.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/66388-four-of-the-5-pyaaray-were-not-punjabi/

We dont need to go round saying to another person if a different faith, your faith is not nirmal and ours is, were better than you!

UKL = I certainly agree with you on that but we must condemn injustice which is inherent within the Holy Books of Christianity, Hinduism and Islam just like Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj did (and as did Dhan Dhan Baba Farid Ji Maharaj and Dhan Dhan Kabir Ji Maharaj as two more examples). Dhan Dhan Kabir Ji Maharaj lambasts Islam repeatedly and yet for some reason some Sikhs see fit to label Maharaj as being non-Sikh. That hurts me.

Again, just because the bhagats and sheikhs bani was added to the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib, does not in no way mean they became a Sikh.

UKL = Their words, their actions, their life was 100% Sikh. To deny the same is tantamount to not according them their due respect imho. Why would contributors to Gurbani convert others into supporting the Quran (or Manu Smriti) which condones slavery, rape, murder and paedophilia?

Lol, mehtab Singh/sikh kosh, if professor Khalil nazmi is the head of the sufi sect of sheikh fareed now,

UKL = Paji there is no such sect which follows Baba Farid Ji Maharaj's teachings (though they may claim to follow his path). Given that Baba Farid Ji Maharaj rejected true Islam, the modern day likes of the Professor are merely those Muslims who by virtue of a Mughal paid for tomb interpret Baba Farid Ji Maharaj as a Muslim (despite Baba Farid Ji's beliefs to the contrary). Remember there are those RSS revisionists that claim Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj were Hindu when Gurbani proves the opposite!

UKL = Sikhiseeker Paji i'd like to sincerely emphasise my 100% total personal respect for you as a brother within the Panth (who also hates caste as the anti-Sikh concept it is ... and nobility by birth is a concept which is actually supported in the Quran and Manu Smriti as I am sure you are aware) so please brother don't take my disagreement with you intellectually on something I believe very strongly in as a personal attack on you in any way. I respect your entitlement to your own viewpoint. I believe the opposite. And if all of us care about the Panth we should be mature enough (as I believe you are) to disagree with pyaar and satkaar. I never agree 100% with SikhKosh Paji and Mehtab Singh Paji either (but 95% of the time yes) so it's all good. I can 100% say that though I fully disagree with you on this subject I still believe your pyaar for Sikhi is 100% so after academic debates are done and dusted let's always work in Unity on how we progress our Panth! VJKK VJKF

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