Police With Shoes In Gurdwara Karamsaar Ilford

[sat]

Sikhs born in UK can usually spot the one's that are 1st gen-immigrants, just like the UK born get spotted in India as valeties, quite easily.

Bhai Sahib, Can you share your thoughts on what qualities one look at in order to make judgement that particular person is Indian immigrant or so on.

So it is right for airport security to make judgement on the possibility of aligning turban wearing sikh as some middle east or some foreigner because of the 'Sikh' physical description not fitting in with guard's own cultural understanding.

If we see large number of Sikhs (whether they are immigrants or not) gathering @ gurdwara sahib then it becomes health & safety issue is something new.

Personally, i got no clue about the situation but the racism within our community is certainly not good.

Please forgive me if i have offended or hurt your feelings as this was not my intention, i made that remark from what i picked up from the video and it was my perception, as for being able to tell the difference as luckysingh ji has said it is the same as how we are picked out as being from baar or valethiyeh etc etc in india.

I meant no offence.

[BritishSingh]

All of these problems should be taken up with Sri Akal Takht Sahib.

[Sat1176]

I know this gurdwara well. Whilst the sangat were on to a good thing by wanting to do their own santiya class, they should have consulted and had prior agreement from the gurdwara management. We all know you can't just walk into a gurdwara because it has an empty hall and start using it for your own purposes, even if it for a good cause. If there wasn't a overseeing management structure in place there would be chaos in the running of gurdware and everyone would be helping themselves to the facilities.

Videos relating to incident have gone viral on facebook within the Sikh community locally. Personally I think it is being blown well out of proportion. Rather than addressing the core issue the group were facing i.e. not having a place to do their santiya class they are now more interested in defaming the gurdwara by showing videos of police wearing shoes outside the darbar hall and sachkhand. Yes the general sangat are supposed to leave their shoes downstairs but I guess in the case of the police an exception was made by the management.

[Sikhistan]

Please forgive me if i have offended or hurt your feelings as this was not my intention, i made that remark from what i picked up from the video and it was my perception, as for being able to tell the difference as luckysingh ji has said it is the same as how we are picked out as being from baar or valethiyeh etc etc in india.

I meant no offence.

none taken Bhai Sahib and appreciate your nice reply.

Of course there is vast difference between sikhs living abroad and india. I see 'valatey' sikhs to be more ethical than those who live in punjab however, punjab sikhs feel proud of their brothers/sisters living abroad. on the other side i see many young 'valatey' sikhs looking down upon immigrants who is not or refuse to adjust to western social culture.

Sat1176, i agree with you that there should be a process where such incident does not happen - like asking permission to hold any program inside darbar hall. However the other side of the management made grave mistake by calling cops, fully knowing that they will enter darbar hall with shoes.

Solution? Keep politics out of gurughars and we wont see such horrible news again.

[Sat1176]

From all the footage I have seen the police did not enter the darbar sahib, they were standing outside. Even the sangat is sitting outside the darbar facing it most likely because the top floor darbar was closed.

Reading between the lines here, but from the videos it looks like the sangat were protesting they will hold the santiya class there whether the management agree or not. In that circumstance it would appear the police were called.

[Reese]

The police have more of a duty of care towards the members of public than rules and regulations associated with any religion or establishment.

Look at it this way, had the police been called if there was a possible breach of peace, or a physical threat, and the police took a moment or so to take their shoes off, and in that moment, someone got assaulted, or injured in some way, the police would be held accountable to some extent.

Second point, If that had been your mother, father, brother, sister or anyone linked to you personally who was at risk of being attacked, would you still be complaining that the police did not take their shoes off? And if you answer yes, then im afraid I beg to differ. Same as if there was a fire inside, would you expect the firebrigade to take their boots off? Come on, get real.

Im not saying that there was a threat of an assualt, nor am I saying anyone was being attacked, and also I do not know exactly what the police call details are, but what Im saying is, it seems to me that these guys are making a point out of nothing purely as they know the police have more powers than them at that point in time.

Third point, THE POLICE WERE NOT INSIDE THE MAIN GURDWARA! they were outside in the passage/hallway. If you want to complain about such petty things as such, then u might aswell bring up the issue of as to why there are shoes in the Gurdwara in the first place?... How about expecting people to leave them in their cars?!

Get real, these people who came in and are seen to be the main cause of this issue, have nothing else in their defence than to make a point out of the fact that the police were allowed in the hallway with shoes on by the secretary.

[Guest dasguruka]

The police have more of a duty of care towards the members of public than rules and regulations associated with any religion or establishment.

Look at it this way, had the police been called if there was a possible breach of peace, or a physical threat, and the police took a moment or so to take their shoes off, and in that moment, someone got assaulted, or injured in some way, the police would be held accountable to some extent.

Second point, If that had been your mother, father, brother, sister or anyone linked to you personally who was at risk of being attacked, would you still be complaining that the police did not take their shoes off? And if you answer yes, then im afraid I beg to differ. Same as if there was a fire inside, would you expect the firebrigade to take their boots off? Come on, get real.

Im not saying that there was a threat of an assualt, nor am I saying anyone was being attacked, and also I do not know exactly what the police call details are, but what Im saying is, it seems to me that these guys are making a point out of nothing purely as they know the police have more powers than them at that point in time.

Third point, THE POLICE WERE NOT INSIDE THE MAIN GURDWARA! they were outside in the passage/hallway. If you want to complain about such petty things as such, then u might aswell bring up the issue of as to why there are shoes in the Gurdwara in the first place?... How about expecting people to leave them in their cars?!

Get real, these people who came in and are seen to be the main cause of this issue, have nothing else in their defence than to make a point out of the fact that the police were allowed in the hallway with shoes on by the secretary.

I don't agree, its' all Singhs and Singhnia in there and i don't see how them reading Bani outside is suddenly going to lead to a fight between them. Wherever there is Bani, you take off your shoes regardless of who you are.

In the case of a fire obviously they won't even have time to think about taking off their shoes but look at them, they're just standing there and they have all the time in the world to take off their shoes. I'm not solely blaming the police for this. If they are aware of taking off their shoes, then they should. If they're not then the Singh is telling them to take them off.

[S1ngh]

Let's see this way:

If tomorrow SGPC calls in indian police in golden temple just because someone start gathering to recite path or to even say protest. Now, would we support something the idea of SGPC called in boots police to come in.

Btw, this happened in 1984. SGPC and Akali dal called in for central police.

[Reese]

Preetam,

Please read my post correctly, and try to understand english grammar.

I have clearly written that "had the police been called if there was a possible breach of peace, or a physical threat" The key word being "had"...

I have also CLEARLY stated in my post that "I do not know the exact details of the police call" along with ClEARLY stating "im not saying there was a threat of an assualt or anyone was being attacked" but what i AM saying is that we do not know what the person who called the police had said to the police operator when calling the police.

It may be that the person might of said that there was a possible threat, or even that someone was becoming very violent or even attacked. Point is, we do not KNOW. And for that reason we can not speculate as to why the police went up the stairs immidatley without taking their shoes off.

Secondly, please use your brain Preetam. You quoted that Singhs and Singhnia were reading bani and how could that lead to a fight all of a sudden.. Well the answer to that is, they were reading Bani upstairs, the police do not fly into the gurdwara through the upstairs windows, they have to walk in from downstairs, so OBVIOUSLY they DO NOT KNOW what is happening upstairs. How do they know people are just reading Bani? If they received a call of a breach of peace, their duty to protect public is number one.

[singhbj singh]

Where is a good independent correspondent when you need one !

Interview both sides and put the video on YouTube.

Let Sangat be the judge of whose guilty of misconduct.