Shootout Outside Us Gurdwara

[kharkusingh1996]

No. It is racist. The majority of crime, like everywhere else, is committed by the disenfranchised. America would do better to address that institutionalised racism rather than see guns as an anwser to any social problem.

So these 'blacks' ,who's killings and deaths you dismiss, are they some sort of sub-human animals not on a par with human beings ?

Are they so unimportant as humans that their deaths en-masse come second to your 'rights' to access automatic machine guns ?

The 'fact' is that there are more black 16 year old males in jail in America than there are in college. Thats a truly damning statement that should, in theory, be enough to end this discussion. But of course it won't. It won't because of thinking like this:.....

Americans, with their limited knowledge and understanding of the world at large, are intellectualy stuck in the year 1776. You base your assumption on America being a great democracy on the basis that you don't have a monarch with despotic powers. What you fail to realise is that no other western democracy has had one either for many hundreds of years now. In terms of democracy then, it can be best summed up with the 'fact' that no other nation in the history of the world has imprisoned a greater proportion of it's citizens than the United States of America. Not Stalin's USSR, not China, not Iran, not even Pol Pot's Cambodia. This dubious honour falls to America and shows it's self-label as a 'free' country as a complete sham. It is your own government that is oppressive and it is them that are impregnating you with misguided notions of how guns are safeguarding your freedom.

Yes. A Sikh. A Sikh stands for sarbat da bhalla. The welfare of all existence. He does not put his own desires first and disregard the damage being done to others simply because most of the 'others' have black skin. Sikhi is organised compassion.

There is honour in the shastar. The Sikh, when he masters Shastar vidya and gatka, masters defence first and foremost. The Sikh, when he masters the sword, the chakar etc, defends with ease and lets the opponent wear himself out to the point of ineffectiveness. There is honour in this art of warfare.

There is no honour in pointing a gun and pulling the trigger. It takes no warrior to do that. It is something that little old ladies, little kids and mental patients can do.

There is nothing 'Sikh' about the gun.

I see gatka fading away soon enough in the next 30-50 years to be honest due to advanced guns etc..... but won't be extinct never.

[West London Singh]

I see gatka fading away soon enough in the next 30-50 years to be honest due to advanced guns etc..... but won't be extinct never.

The exact opposite has been happening for the last 20 years.

Particularly here in the UK and places like Italy, in the previous generation only about 1% of Sikhs practiced any form of shastar vidya or had even ever held a sword. Today, it is the norm among Sikh youths to be part of gatka classes and knowledge of the sword.

I admit it is different in Canada though. In the UK, my children and all my relative's children religiously learn gatka. The children of all my close relatives in canada though all religiously learn to dance the bhangra.

Here at least, participation in gatka has grown by at least 500% and growing all the time.

Enlightenment comes quicker to those named Jaswinder and Kuldeep and slower to those named Steve, Vanessa, Gavin and Peter.

[kharkusingh1996]

The exact opposite has been happening for the last 20 years.

Particularly here in the UK and places like Italy, in the previous generation only about 1% of Sikhs practiced any form of shastar vidya or had even ever held a sword. Today, it is the norm among Sikh youths to be part of gatka classes and knowledge of the sword.

I admit it is different in Canada though. In the UK, my children and all my relative's children religiously learn gatka. The children of all my close relatives in canada though all religiously learn to dance the bhangra.

Here at least, participation in gatka has grown by at least 500% and growing all the time.

Enlightenment comes quicker to those named Jaswinder and Kuldeep and slower to those named Steve, Vanessa, Gavin and Peter.

That's something good to hear from other countries. I guess in America where Sikhi is pretty strong in big cities in Cali and NY I am sure we are carrying the tradition with gatka academys. Hopefully it actually shows some effectiveness in self-defense for all people practicing gatka. There are a lot of mentally ill people out there just shooting places and people for ill-minded reasons.

[proud2bejatt]

No. It is racist. The majority of crime, like everywhere else, is committed by the disenfranchised. America would do better to address that institutionalised racism rather than see guns as an anwser to any social problem.

So these 'blacks' ,who's killings and deaths you dismiss, are they some sort of sub-human animals not on a par with human beings ?

Are they so unimportant as humans that their deaths en-masse come second to your 'rights' to access automatic machine guns ?

The 'fact' is that there are more black 16 year old males in jail in America than there are in college. Thats a truly damning statement that should, in theory, be enough to end this discussion. But of course it won't. It won't because of thinking like this:.....

Americans, with their limited knowledge and understanding of the world at large, are intellectualy stuck in the year 1776. You base your assumption on America being a great democracy on the basis that you don't have a monarch with despotic powers. What you fail to realise is that no other western democracy has had one either for many hundreds of years now. In terms of democracy then, it can be best summed up with the 'fact' that no other nation in the history of the world has imprisoned a greater proportion of it's citizens than the United States of America. Not Stalin's USSR, not China, not Iran, not even Pol Pot's Cambodia. This dubious honour falls to America and shows it's self-label as a 'free' country as a complete sham. It is your own government that is oppressive and it is them that are impregnating you with misguided notions of how guns are safeguarding your freedom.

Yes. A Sikh. A Sikh stands for sarbat da bhalla. The welfare of all existence. He does not put his own desires first and disregard the damage being done to others simply because most of the 'others' have black skin. Sikhi is organised compassion.

There is honour in the shastar. The Sikh, when he masters Shastar vidya and gatka, masters defence first and foremost. The Sikh, when he masters the sword, the chakar etc, defends with ease and lets the opponent wear himself out to the point of ineffectiveness. There is honour in this art of warfare.

There is no honour in pointing a gun and pulling the trigger. It takes no warrior to do that. It is something that little old ladies, little kids and mental patients can do.

There is nothing 'Sikh' about the gun.

You are a clueless imbecile sir, good day.

West London 'Singh' the colorful, pink wearing, pride parade attending nagani dancing in front of a machine gun with a urumi; all because he too scared to take less life than he does everytime he breathes.

This type of flock is better for you:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

ਖਾਲਿਸਤਾਨ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਾਬਾਦ | ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ | ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ | |

[ms514]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

"There is nothing 'Sikh' about the gun."

???

ਅਸ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਖੰਡੋ ਖੜਗ ਤੁਪਕ ਤਬਰ ਅਰੁ ਤੀਰ ॥ ਸੈਫ ਸਰੋਹੀ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਯਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਪੀਰ ॥੩॥
As, Kripan (sword), Khanda, Khadag (sword), Tupak (gun), Tabar (hatched), Teer (arrow), Saif (sword), Sarohi and Saihathi, all these are our adorable seniors.3. - Shastar Naam Malaa.

Because Gatka can defend against this???:

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/us/sikh-temple-shooting

Funny thing: Local Gatka Dal here has multiple winners of Yudh (annual Gatka competition) over the years. The teachers are gun owners...you would think that those who create the winners of Yudh tournaments would know whether Gatka was the ultimate self defense and not require carrying guns...right? Seems like they know the realities of what Gatka can and cannot do.

Mata Bhag Kaur's gun - was she not a Sikh?:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gurmatstudy/489631949/

Let's make it simple: You being British, and from West London, have very little understanding of what the life of an American is like. I, being an American, have very little understanding of what life of a West Londoner is (though I have been there and have contacts/friends there).

I, being a former anti-gun believer, can tell you the harsh realities of what it means to be a Sikh American. We are targeted based on our appearance, we suffer from mis-identification continuously and are victimized for such.

The nightmare scenario for the Sikh community is Soft Target style bombing of an American plane (can't say it can never happen - ready Soft Target). Our Gurdwaras will be target, our people will be targeted and we will have to defend our own. There is also the lack of understanding of city folks (of which I am one of formerly) even in the U.S. that the police is always ready at hand to provide all the protection you need (a concept that is even more ridiculous in the UK, where the regular street patrol police is not armed but the thugs are. Quite tragic to see the British version of "Cops" - senior police officer bullied and physically manhandled by a ruffian British youth because the police is neutered beyond any use). Here, if you call the police and you are in the country, it may take HOURS for the police to respond. This is not a backwater, red neck state - this is California where a reported 30K people identifying themselves as Sikhs reside, have nearly 20 Gurdwaras and are visible in a 50 mile area.

Maybe it is fine for the British to have this stance (and it seems to hold true - during the recent London riots, the Sikhs were able to hold rioters at bay with Kirpans and bats), but not so for a Sikh American. We have been shot at, we will be shot at and our places of worship and residences are targets. Gatka sticks and dhals will do nothing to stop bullets and the Sikh Americans are acutely aware of that.

As for guns having nothing to do with Sikhi - that is an outright false statement as demonstrated by Dasam Patshah himself.

[kharkusingh1996]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

"There is nothing 'Sikh' about the gun."

???

ਅਸ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਖੰਡੋ ਖੜਗ ਤੁਪਕ ਤਬਰ ਅਰੁ ਤੀਰ ॥ ਸੈਫ ਸਰੋਹੀ ਸੈਹਥੀ ਯਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੈ ਪੀਰ ॥੩॥

As, Kripan (sword), Khanda, Khadag (sword), Tupak (gun), Tabar (hatched), Teer (arrow), Saif (sword), Sarohi and Saihathi, all these are our adorable seniors.3. - Shastar Naam Malaa.

Because Gatka can defend against this???:

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/us/sikh-temple-shooting

Funny thing: Local Gatka Dal here has multiple winners of Yudh (annual Gatka competition) over the years. The teachers are gun owners...you would think that those who create the winners of Yudh tournaments would know whether Gatka was the ultimate self defense and not require carrying guns...right? Seems like they know the realities of what Gatka can and cannot do.

Mata Bhag Kaur's gun - was she not a Sikh?:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/gurmatstudy/489631949/

Let's make it simple: You being British, and from West London, have very little understanding of what the life of an American is like. I, being an American, have very little understanding of what life of a West Londoner is (though I have been there and have contacts/friends there).

I, being a former anti-gun believer, can tell you the harsh realities of what it means to be a Sikh American. We are targeted based on our appearance, we suffer from mis-identification continuously and are victimized for such.

The nightmare scenario for the Sikh community is Soft Target style bombing of an American plane (can't say it can never happen - ready Soft Target). Our Gurdwaras will be target, our people will be targeted and we will have to defend our own. There is also the lack of understanding of city folks (of which I am one of formerly) even in the U.S. that the police is always ready at hand to provide all the protection you need (a concept that is even more ridiculous in the UK, where the regular street patrol police is not armed but the thugs are. Quite tragic to see the British version of "Cops" - senior police officer bullied and physically manhandled by a ruffian British youth because the police is neutered beyond any use). Here, if you call the police and you are in the country, it may take HOURS for the police to respond. This is not a backwater, red neck state - this is California where a reported 30K people identifying themselves as Sikhs reside, have nearly 20 Gurdwaras and are visible in a 50 mile area.

Maybe it is fine for the British to have this stance (and it seems to hold true - during the recent London riots, the Sikhs were able to hold rioters at bay with Kirpans and bats), but not so for a Sikh American. We have been shot at, we will be shot at and our places of worship and residences are targets. Gatka sticks and dhals will do nothing to stop bullets and the Sikh Americans are acutely aware of that.

As for guns having nothing to do with Sikhi - that is an outright false statement as demonstrated by Dasam Patshah himself.

I can agree there needs to be some protection for gurdwaras since Oak Creek Gurdwara incident. I am from a conservative state where most whites don't have a clue about Sikhs and I have been shouted out right outside my gurdwara by whites calling us "towelheads". There is a lot of ignorant hatred in America so I think I can agree to some extent of making sure Singhs and Kaurs have some gun training just for safety as we have no idea what can happen next.

[BarinderSingh]

The people of UK have been deprived of guns because the government has a history of disarming civilians from arming themselves against the British. Look at when these goons came to conquer India. They disarmed Sikhs and armed those people that will help them conquer India. There little kitties in school are taught guns kill, but we only conquer (murder, rape, slaughter, commit genocides) other countries for your protection from the big bad wolf hiding in the woods. They breed kids who hate guns. What these little kitties should hate is the royal family. India cannot have kings and qeens, neither can africa or any other country, but we the British can have kings, queens, prince and princess. They are built on corruption and they continue to breed corruption.

We are taught British saved the world, but what really happened is the opposite. They made the Asian world weak by (murdering, rape, slaughter, committing genocides) so the people could not defend the people of the country. After turning the people into slaves they used the same people to help them take over others who pose a higher risk than them. The royal family are the real criminals in disguise.

Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji would have made this oppression regime come to it's knees after destroying the Mughal emperor. Guru Sahib would have never seen the British as a peace making country they portray themselves to be in history books. What peace did they bring to Africa or India or North America. Where ever they went they left a trail of innocent blood and destruction of civilization. It's our way or your head will be on top of a stick and your women will be raped free of their 'backwards' culture and genes.

They don't want more Udham SIngh's on their hands delivering them straight to hell.

[BarinderSingh]

Yes, Indira Gandhi attacked Sri Akal Takht Sahib, but who started this whole mess. It was the British when they started their oppressive regime in India and gave the power to another oppressive regime of Nehru Gandhi. Sri Guru Arjun Dev ji was martyred by Jahangir. The hand that caused the torture and murder of our Guru was Chandu Shah. Who did Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib ji punish? Not Jahangir, but Chandu Shah, the hand behind it all.

Take the rosary glasses off and see the British for what they really are. If it need to be done again they will go back to rapping, murdering, and committing genocides once again. They have not changed, just the faces have changed.

[West London Singh]

You are a clueless imbecile sir, good day.

West London 'Singh' the colorful, pink wearing, pride parade attending nagani dancing in front of a machine gun with a urumi; all because he too scared to take less life than he does everytime he breathes.

This type of flock is better for you: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

ਖਾਲਿਸਤਾਨ ਜ਼ਿੰਦਾਬਾਦ | ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ | ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ | |

The 'parting shot' insult you started your message with would have been more effective if you used it at the end of your message. To wish me 'good day sir' and then go on to talk to me is all a bit silly in terms of productive use of the English language.

However, given how you then go on to call anyone that disapproves of guns as a 'homosexual' grammar and literary prose seems to be the least of your problems.