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58 minutes ago, Preeet said:

It clearly said worship them (regarding the lines), and now you are saying don't worship them? & yes those lines about not recognizing them, but hearing about them are also true because that is the ustat of the nirankar nirguna Sri Vaheguru Sahib ji. Not the Sarguna (bhul chuk maff kijye). & I don't care if you want to bow down to Sri Krishna ji, I'm writing this for the knowledge of the OP. Because I care.

God, If you want to go and Pray to Ganesh, then please do. I made a point about distinction. Actually please forgive me Bhagat Kabir Singh Ji maharaj  told us to make that distinction, in all his infinite wisdom, Something you Preeto  failed to comprehend, you've done this multiple times. Taken tukhs out of their context and based warped them to what you want them.  Do you know what the word Ganesh actually means, Parbati? Do know what all the weapons of Krishna symbolise? What the shell conch shows and symbolises? Go listen to Katha by various Panthic I'm sure they can shed so much light on it all, far more than me. That entire Shabad is regarding Akaal Purkh and his virtues, (that of intelligence). NOT of Ganesh the Deity. 

 

Last time it was Krishna, now its Ganesh :) Love to see who's your new favourite god to encourage the worship off.

Quote

Though the trinity of gods, Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh lay claims to divinity and pose as contemplators of the Divine, yet they fail to realize the Lord in His entirety. However, O Lord, the one blessed by Thee can comprehend Thee through Thy own grace. The Lord is prevalent in all the world as the Eternal, Immanent One, but Invisible in form, revealed only to the rare few

^ From the Book Unditthi Duniya by Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, Who was a fully fledged GurSikh, who's the very pinnacle of a Mahapurkh, I'll take his word over than yours when it comes to worshipping gods/goddesses.  

 

There's enough proof in Shabad Hazare Dasam Pita for anyone to see not to worship these Gods. 

 

@OP please just tell your family to study Shabad Hazare Patsheh Dasami. All will be revealed.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Preeet said:

The distinction is based on which aspect they are praising when it comes to nirguna or sarguna. It clearly says Ganesh ji, who is the son of Parvati ji, and masters of 'servants' (ganas) of Shiva ji (That's why Ganesh ji is called Ganesh ji (gan=servants of Shiva ji, esh/eshvara=lord). Why does it concern you regarding the symbolism of Sri Krishna ji's attributes? Of course, this is all about Sri Paramatman ji's virtues. Clearly you are stuck in dvaita instead of advaita.. There is not 2, only 1. That 1 is including all of us. How can something exist without God? Is there something other than God that is doing something on it's own? The answer is no. Until you realize this you will be left arguing with the world.

Once again thank you for completely missing the point. Gan isn't referring to Shiva devotees, it refers to devotees of God. Pat= Lord, Lord of all Devotees (i.e God), once again that's your delusions because you subconsciously want to worship them.  Gauri means Beautiful (white but lets not be sticklers),  Now lets put it all together and you get....Ganesh mentioned there is attribution of Akaal (intelligence), NOT telling us to worship the Deity. T

॥ ਛਪਯ ਛੰਦ ॥ ਗਨਪਤਿ ਗੌਰੀ ਸੁਤ ਭਜਹੁ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਕੋ ਧਾਮ ॥
 

Translate it all and you get, Worship the Beautiful lord of the devotees, the house of Spiritual Powers.

The Gods and Goddesses aren't attributes of god, they are his children. That being said God has all of their attributes (intelligence far beyond Ganesh, sustaining abilities far above Vishnu and so on). However they can be destroyed, He can't. If they disappear he still has those attributes. The fact that you just plucked it and didn't bother reading ahead to where it says hari (all residing) is further proof you didn't bother to read on ahead.

 

It concerns me because you have no clue what it means yet you come on here like you know all, if you don't even know what any of them symbolise then why on earth are you posting quotes about them? Read up on it, I've present proof from Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji who even stated Gods and Goddess pose as divines and we shouldn't venerate them, they haven't realised god. But of course the word of a Mahapurkh is nothing for you :)

Watch this 

Another really excellent video by Gyani Kulwant Singh Ji who explains how names for Gods/Goddess can be associated with Akaal but they are not a reference to the gods.

Clearly showing you how easy it is to fall into your own delusions. Sorry but please listen to people who have studied the texts, They know what they're talking about. You don't. All is God and God is all but not all is fully realised God. God can have any name. For example my friend David, The name means beloved in Hebrew, By that logic you can say the name can also ring true to god. However that does not make David, God.


 

Distinction is all important in Gurbani. 

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥
Kabeer Raam Kehan Mehi Bhaedh Hai Thaa Mehi Eaek Bichaar ||
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
58648 ਸਲੋਕ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੭੪ ਪੰ. ੧੪ 
Salok Bhagat Kabir
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ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
Soee Raam Sabhai Kehehi Soee Kouthakehaar ||190||
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||
58649 ਸਲੋਕ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੭੪ ਪੰ. ੧੪ 
Salok Bhagat Kabir
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ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
Kabeer Raamai Raam Kahu Kehibae Maahi Bibaek ||
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
58650 ਸਲੋਕ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੭੪ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Salok Bhagat Kabir
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ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
Eaek Anaekehi Mil Gaeiaa Eaek Samaanaa Eaek ||191||
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||
58651 ਸਲੋਕ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੭੪ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Salok Bhagat Kabir

 

Honestly, I've presented ample proof. Your only proof is what your manmat wants it to be, im done here. Have fun shouting at yourself. 

 

I'm not the one trapped in anything, you are. You should quit flaunting around like a peacock and just accept the word from Mahapurkhs who knows far more than you or I. Of course that would mean accepting you're wrong. Which dear of Preeto never does.

 

this was a really good post by a user who knows way more than me regarding this very passage (until someone can analyse the FULL Shabads we don't even know what the actual context is).

Edit: Was brought to my attention by friend regarding Bhai Mani Singh Ji's Gyan Ratnavali where it states,

ਨਾਮ ਸਭ ਦੇਵਾਂ ਦਾ ਦੇਵ ਹੈ । ਕੋਈ ਦੇਵੀ ਨੂੰ ਮਨਾਂਵਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕੋਈ ਸ਼ਿਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ, ਕੋਈ ਗਣੇਸ਼ ਨੂੰ, ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ,

ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇ ਸਿਖ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਨੂੰ ਆਰਾਧਦੇ ਹੈਨ, ਜਿਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਭ ਵਿਘਨ ਨਾਸ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਦਾ ਮੰਗਲਾਚਾਰ ਆਦਿ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ ।

Name of God is gods of all. Some believe in goddess, some in Shiva and some others in Ganesha and other god.

Sikhs of the Guru do not contemplate anybody else other than Sat Naam (True Name) that destroys all disturbances and imperfections. That is why Sat-Naam is invoked in the beginning.

 

Take that how you want. 

 

 

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@Thanatos@Preeet

A polite request, please do not be overly rigid or black and white in your interpretations.

The word worship in a western sense is quite narrow whereas from an Indic viewpoint it has numerous meanings. An act a follower of an Eastern school of thought does would easily be considered as worship by western/orientalist standards, where as the follower them self would not consider it worship, by their own standards.

Thanatos Ji I understand the respect you have for Sants...I also see you have quoted Bhai Randhir Singh; AKJ aren’t exactly lovers of DG so I wouldn’t be too quick to quote them.

And we shouldn’t be saying who is or isn’t a fully fledged GurSikh, thats not really up to us. With this kind of thinking you would be marginalising a large number of Sikhs, especially those from traditional Sampardas.

Preet, I must say your Jai Mata Di comment is rather silly. Jai Mata Di exclusively refers to the physical manifestations of Devi by those who use this greeting, not the Jag Mata referred to in Bani.

Thanatos you seem to have a great aversion to Devi/Devte whereas Preet you seem to have a great affinity. Find some middle ground.

E.g. Please contemplate what you would do if Sri Krishan Ji Bhagwan graced you with their Darshan? Would you show them the front door or become their Bhagat for life?

Hint: The answer is neither but try and contemplate it optimistically and you’ll have your answer.

Vaheguru.

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4 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

@Thanatos@Preeet

A polite request, please do not be overly rigid or black and white in your interpretations.

The word worship in a western sense is quite narrow whereas from an Indic viewpoint it has numerous meanings. An act a follower of an Eastern school of thought does could be considered as worship by western/orientalist standards, where as the follower them self would not consider it worship by their own standards.

Thanatos Ji I understand the respect you have for Sants...I also see you have quoted Bhai Randhir Singh; AKJ aren’t exactly lovers of DG so I wouldn’t be too quick to quote them.

And we shouldn’t be saying who is or isn’t a fully fledged GurSikh, thats not really up to us. With this kind of thinking you would be marginalising a large number of Sikhs, especially those from traditional Sampardas.

Preet, I must say your Jai Mata Di comment is rather silly. Jai Mata Di exclusively refers to the physical manifestations of Devi by those who use this greeting, not the Jag Mata referred to in Bani.

Thanatos you seem to have a great aversion to Devi/Devte whereas Preet you seem to have a great affinity. Find some middle ground.

E.g. Please contemplate what you would do if Sri Krishan Ji Bhagwan graced you with their Darshan? Would you show them the front door or become their Bhagat for life?

Hint: The answer is neither but try and contemplate it optimistically and you’ll have your answer.

Vaheguru.

Bro I totally get what you mean about AKJ and their DS anti stance but Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote many articles defending Dasam. He even constructed research into it and explained many terms in it. AKJ now is a total Joke and Bhai Sahib Ji's hard work seems to have fallen on death ears after it was hijacked. Bhai Sahib did immense seva for the Panth, as did all the mahapurkh. I can tell by your response you don't seem to like the concept of forming Jatha, I may be assuming here. Nothing wrong there though.

 

If you get a moment I'd suggest reading this, really enlightened me (not saying you're unwise on the topic but its regarding Bhai Sahib's work toward Dasam Bani).

 

http://patshahi10.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=389:2011-03-16-10-30-15&catid=35&Itemid=64

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17 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Bro I totally get what you mean about AKJ and their DS anti stance but Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote many articles defending Dasam. He even constructed research into it and explained many terms in it. AKJ now is a total Joke and Bhai Sahib Ji's hard work seems to have fallen on death ears after it was hijacked. Bhai Sahib did immense seva for the Panth, as did all the mahapurkh. I can tell by your response you don't seem to like the concept of forming Jatha, I may be assuming here. Nothing wrong there though.

 

If you get a moment I'd suggest reading this, really enlightened me (not saying you're unwise on the topic but its regarding Bhai Sahib's work toward Dasam Bani).

 

http://patshahi10.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=389:2011-03-16-10-30-15&catid=35&Itemid=64

Haanji I know. AKJ could hardly be considered "Bhai Randhir Singh Jatha" today.

Brother I recognize all the seva different Mahapurkh did for the Panth but I try and understand their words by taking into account their history, overall ideology and influences (political and Dharmic), it changes your interpretations greatly. In layman’s terms, take it with a pinch of salt.  

And no I don’t mind Jatha as long as it doesn’t become the “My God is better than yours” attitude we had in Primary School lol.

Thanks for the link bro. Will check it out later.

Anyway you just reminded me of something...

 

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9 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

Haanji I know. AKJ could hardly be considered "Bhai Randhir Singh Jatha" today.

Brother I recognize all the seva different Mahapurkh did for the Panth but I try and understand their words by taking into account their history, overall ideology and influences (political and Dharmic), it changes your interpretations greatly. In layman’s terms, take it with a pinch of salt.  

And no I don’t mind Jatha as long as it doesn’t become the “My God is better than yours” attitude we had in Primary School lol.

Thanks for the link bro. Will check it out later.

Anyway you just reminded me of something...

 

I died at the pushing of the feet into the sink, thanks for the laugh this morning. xD, wonder if you seen this bro?

 

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8 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

I died at the pushing of the feet into the sink, thanks for the laugh this morning. xD, wonder if you seen this bro?

Lol! I can't believe how accurate the guy is!

And yeah I've seen that one.

Btw we've totally derailed this thread B|

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30 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

Lol! I can't believe how accurate the guy is!

And yeah I've seen that one.

Btw we've totally derailed this thread B|

Clearly. Bro I'd like to add I have no problem with Devi/Devta, they're a part of our scriptures and should be respect. However they aren't perfect, as they themselves are deeply involved in Maya and have sinned. Guru Sahib hasn't praised or swore at them, He's presented it like it is. Some will close their eyes to the bad and proclaim them perfect and others will consider them just as wretched as criminals. But in the end of the day they too are seeking the True Guru like all of us.

 

Should quit replying here, we are derailing this.

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1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

Clearly. Bro I'd like to add I have no problem with Devi/Devta, they're a part of our scriptures and should be respect. However they aren't perfect, as they themselves are deeply involved in Maya and have sinned. Guru Sahib hasn't praised or swore at them, He's presented it like it is. Some will close their eyes to the bad and proclaim them perfect and others will consider them just as wretched as criminals. But in the end of the day they too are seeking the True Guru like all of us.

 

Should quit replying here, we are derailing this.

I pretty much agree bro. All too often I think many of us forget that Guru Ji is a lyrical master. One Gurbani tuk could make it seem like we should be running to the next Ram Mandir we see, as some people like to claim, and another completely disregards Devi/Devte to the point where as you said people begin to see them “ as wretched as criminals”. Context people, do Khoj!

If we take Gurbani in context, bearing in mind this is my rough (possibly Manmat, please correct me if need be) interpretation then I would say as follows...There is no one higher then Guru Mahraaj/Akaal. Gurbani teaches us that not only the world but the whole universe has been destroyed and recreated countless times...so the Devi Devte as we know them are only part of this round of creation, hence, they are relevant and should be respected but they are not the be all and end all and we shouldn’t “worship” them (remembering what I said about worship in an earlier post).

Or one could sum it by saying “Pranaam Devi Devte ah nu but that’s as far I as I go”.

Am I to take the above as your understanding also?

And actually we’ve re-railed the thread now! All relevant to the OP.

-Edit- Btw I don’t think anything is wrong with religious imagery as long as we don’t start doing Puja of these images. Appreciation and understanding of Indic art and the deep representations contained within it is important. Our Gyan may even grow to an extent by analysing them and they may help us to understand metaphorical meanings used in Gurbani e.g. how you mentioned Krishan Jis weapons above or the weapons in Durga Mata Jis hands etc.

The layers to these depictions are actually rather fascinating.

On another note I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to buy the artwork in the link below.
http://www.sikhiart.com/2015/07/22/new-painting-of-shiva/

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1 hour ago, MrDoaba said:

I pretty much agree bro. All too often I think many of us forget that Guru Ji is a lyrical master. One Gurbani tuk could make it seem like we should be running to the next Ram Mandir we see, as some people like to claim, and another completely disregards Devi/Devte to the point where as you said people begin to see them “ as wretched as criminals”. Context people, do Khoj!

If we take Gurbani in context, bearing in mind this is my rough (possibly Manmat, please correct me if need be) interpretation then I would say as follows...There is no one higher then Guru Mahraaj/Akaal. Gurbani teaches us that not only the world but the whole universe has been destroyed and recreated countless times...so the Devi Devte as we know them are only part of this round of creation, hence, they are relevant and should be respected but they are not the be all and end all and we shouldn’t “worship” them (remembering what I said about worship in an earlier post).

Or one could sum it by saying “Pranaam Devi Devte ah nu but that’s as far I as I go”.

Am I to take the above as your understanding also?

And actually we’ve re-railed the thread now! All relevant to the OP.

-Edit- Btw I don’t think anything is wrong with religious imagery as long as we don’t start doing Puja of these images. Appreciation and understanding of Indic art and the deep representations contained within it is important. Our Gyan may even grow to an extent by analysing them and they may help us to understand metaphorical meanings used in Gurbani e.g. how you mentioned Krishan Jis weapons above or the weapons in Durga Mata Jis hands etc.

The layers to these depictions are actually rather fascinating.

On another note I wouldn’t hesitate for a second to buy the artwork in the link below.
http://www.sikhiart.com/2015/07/22/new-painting-of-shiva/

 

Totally agree there, Gyani Kulwant Singh Ji made an excellent point that if Guru Sahib had graced Europe as his point of descent into the world, we would most likely have references to moses, Jesus Christ etc, probably even the Greek Gods like Zeus, Athena, Hera etc too. Context is so important, that's why we should try and gain as much Santhiya as possible, the amount of double meanings in some words is amazing (not in a bad way obviously) but they can pretty much open your eyes. 

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