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Idol Worshipping, Worshipping Other Than God And Sikh Channels


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Guest Anonymous

Hi,

Before I start, I thought I'd say I'm from a Sikh background and basically my family don't have much knowledge of Sikhism, I don't care that they don't know much but one thing that worries me is that they don't worship God alone but sometimes think that other people are gods also and this is a big sin I don't want my family to be punished (for their blind deeds they will be blindly punished I think scripture says) as this is against the basic truth that most religions preach (Ek Onkar- there is only one God)!

I'll give you examples my sister use to have Hindu idols in her bedroom (though she does not have them anymore as I said its against Sikhism as I showed her verses from scripture), even though she took them out of her room (this was years ago), I don't think she fully understands as I think she just wanted to get me to shut up as I was young at the time and had the energy to try and explain stuff (though I cant explain this stuff anymore as I am mentally drained every day and I struggle to explain stuff- though it is a lot easier to explain online as I can write stuff and rearrange it after so it makes more sense), some of family members even said "Jai Mata Di" when one of the babies sneezed (though I have only heard them say this recently). My family still go to Mandirs where idols are worshipped when invited, once they were invited to the 'marriage' of the Hindu gods (the couple who paid for this 'wedding' did this ceremony as they did not have any children of their own) but they don't understand we should only worship God.

One of my family members who is baptised (done Amrit shak) in India she even went to do arti of an idol of a baba that our family believe in (even though this baba was alive at the time- though he's died now)! His Temple even had an ek onkar symbol on one side and an om symbol to the other side with an idol of Shiva I think on top of the entrance (I have a bad memory- but I can remember this place since going there on holiday when I was still at school- as this confused me like mad!) Some of my family members though the Gurus were 10 gods, when infact Guru Nanak worshipped God alone and referred to himself as a servant of God, if I remember correctly, so if my family claim to follow his religion then why don't they worship God alone!

So I decided to send an email to either 2 or 3 Sikh channels a few weeks ago asking them to do a programme on this subject, and I have not received any responses from any of them! As my family tend to watch Sikh programmes on the Sikh religious channels quite often, as this is the only way they will be able to understand as if I said anything I will be dismissed as an <banned word filter activated> who knows nothing and I don't have the energy to debate, plus I don't want to upset anyone!

What am I supposed to do! Please help! Life is hard enough without having to worry about punishment from God!

Sorry for long post.

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Life is hard enough without having to worry about punishment from God! It doesn't matter who or what you worship as long as you are a good person. If your family feels the need to worship idols to fu

Bro I totally get what you mean about AKJ and their DS anti stance but Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote many articles defending Dasam. He even constructed research into it and explained many ter

Hi, Before I start, I thought I'd say I'm from a Sikh background and basically my family don't have much knowledge of Sikhism, I don't care that they don't know much but one thing that worries me is

Guest Anonymous

Life is hard enough without having to worry about punishment from God!

It doesn't matter who or what you worship as long as you are a good person. If your family feels the need to worship idols to fulfill your spiritual needs, let them, I don't see any harm in what is essentially their prerogative when it comes to practicing faith. What is wrong though is to proselytize and to impose your beliefs on others, let them know your opinions, and then respect whichever decision they choose to make.

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Guest Anonymous

I understand what your saying, however they claim to believe in the Sikh faith, and they only do this stuff because they believe it to part of the Sikh faith... what I want is that they can be educated that idol worshipping and believing in these babas being gods or saying 'jai mata di' etc is wrong according to the Sikh faith... if they choose to still continue there is nothing I can do but just accept as I cannot force anyone to believe in something and visa versa. All I wanted was the Sikh channels to discuss this so my family can be educated about this, as this is the best medium for my family... but none of them choose to respond even though this issue is relevant to the wider Sikh community as well.

Naturally I am going to worry about stuff like this when scriptures say that God Himself has forbidden idol worshipping, and talks about punishment if we worship idols, I am not going to wish harm for my family... just like if I knew my family was eating something that could harm their health I would want them to be educated that this food is bad or this food is good and the same goes for spiritual matters.

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Guest Jai ho

Is it your desire to save your family or your actual conversion of your family which wins God's favour? After all, God has made your family and God decides the outcome.

Respect yourself for your desire to protect your family, but turn responsibility for outcome over to God.

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Guest Anonymous jee,

first of all, please remove the idea from your mind that God punishes. Wahiguru is an infinite ocean of daya meher, prem, pyaar.

He can never judge nor punish anyone, that is not His role. It is our agaynta which makes us think so. Just think, if He were to judge and punish anyone, which door for mercy would that jeeva go for?

It is absurd, it is all bahamanvadee and manmukhs who have spread such infamy of God. The whole world is insane, talking about God, as if they knew Him personally, and then due to this agyanta, the stupids fight and kill each others, trying to impose their blind faiths over others, it is sickening to see such mental retarded people.

But what else can they do? They never go through the Bani, and those who go, go through it, like swimming in a swimming pool, just on the surface; when the fact is, the Gems of Universal Truth, are got by diving deep into the Bani, means, by putting into practice what it says.

Just from the starting, the Bani says:

Ikoankar Satnam,Satgur Parsad, Jaap.

There is only one Lord God, who is True Naam, and who is realized, by His Grace, when we do the jaap of His Naam. That is it, so simple and so straight Gurmat.

Brother, do not force anything on anybody, to whom do we belong? Who belong to us? Everybody is responsible, for his/her  own destiny. Be gentle and loving nevertheless with your family members, stick to the principles of Gurmat, as stated here, and if it His "Mauj", they will be attracted to Sikhee, by watching the positive changes in you.

Sikhee is indeed wonderful, there is no comparison to Sikhee in the whole creation, not because I say so, but because Gurmat in the form of Gurbani, is the blessings upon us jeevas by Guru Sahiban, to attain union with Wahiguru in this very birth, if only we apply it in our lives, as a loving relationship with Him.

It is not that difficult ....

Just by getting admission in a well known best school, with best teachers... one does not get  any type of graduation, it is only by understanding and remebering what the teachers teach, that one passes the different levels, until one reaches the highest and graduates The teachers are to guide, but just by looking at the teachers and talking about the walls of the classes or the palyground, one achieves nothing...so teachings, learning, understanding and remembering them, are the steps to graduation.

And this learning each and everyone has to do it for himself or herself, no parents, no friends, nor realtives can do anything for anybody, each one is here to become a better human being, and  a better soul; in short, a perfect sikh, to get union with Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

We come alone, and alone we have to leave, our sole relation is with Akal Purukh alone. And, that should be our main concern, in this human life. Not that we should forget our duties, our obligations with our realtives... it is just to put forward our priorities.

We can not say, I just want Wahiguru and do His bhakti, and forget everything else ...

We should remeber, we have karmic adjustments to finish, if we run away from them, we will not be able  to do His Bhakti either. The thing is to stay in this world but not be a part  of it, to the extent, we bind ourselves in the world and get lost in it, and forget Him, or to only remember Him selfishly, in times of need or pain.

Go through the Bani slowly, try to find and understand, the message what Guru Sahiban want to tell us, in each and every anmol bachans of them.

God bless you.

 

Sat Sree Akal.

 

 

 

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Guest Jacfsing2
On 4/30/2014 at 3:48 PM, Guest Anonymous said:

Some of my family members though the Gurus were 10 gods, when infact Guru Nanak worshipped God alone and referred to himself as a servant of God, if I remember correctly, so if my family claim to follow his religion then why don't they worship God alone!

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh, Daas seriously had to stop at this point, because in all honesty Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is one Vaheguru with 11 forms, not 10 separate Gods. (But it is true that our Guru was Vaheguru). About the other stuff, at a certain age, (not knowing how old your parents are), it is extremely hard to teach or inspire someone, (their ears are basically going to be shut to hear anything you say about philosophy). What is a recommendation for you is to read Bhai Randhir Singh's book: "Is Worshipping Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Akin to Idol Worship?" (Daas isn't one of those AKJ Randhir Singh fans, so it's obviously more sincere). Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji is Vaheguru and every true Sikh preacher would say the same! Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

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If I recall correctly ...it was Dhan Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji (or Sant Isher Singh ji) who said we shouldn't sit there saying one thing but having another in our mind. 

http://nanaksargurdwara.com/stages-ardaas

the life happening starts on page 2, regarding a Raagi and the Shabad he sang. If your family are doing any of the Nitnem bani then they themselves are of 2 mind. You can't be a Sikh of Guru Sahib and worship Hindu Deities. Every day n Tav Prasad Saviya you talk about hypocrisy and idol worshipping, yetif your family are still doing it just shows they don't really wish to dig deeper into the meaning :/

 

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥
मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥
I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal (the Immanent Brahman).434.

ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਰਖਵਾਰ ਹਮਾਰੋ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਲੋਹ ਮੈਂ ਕਿੰਕਰ ਥਾਰੋ ॥ ਅਪਨਾ ਜਾਨ ਕਰੋ ਰਖਵਾਰ ॥ ਬਾਹਿ ਗਹੇ ਕੀ ਲਾਜ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੪੩੫॥
महाकाल रखवार हमारो ॥ महा लोह मैं किंकर थारो ॥ अपना जान करो रखवार ॥ बाहि गहे की लाज बिचार ॥४३५॥
The Supreme Kal (God) is my Protector and O Steel-Purusha Lort ! I am Thy slave; Protect me, considering me as Thy own and do me the honour of catching my arm.435.

 

That momment when they say "Jai Mata Di" they could easily say "Waheguru". All Devis are subordinate to Kaal and all will Perish. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Preeet said:

Jai Mata Di can refer to many things.. Just like 'praise the Lord' can refer to different things. Jai Mata Di can be spoken towards 'Jag Mata' as in Sri Chaupai Sahib ji. Or even Lok Mata as in Sri Jaap Sahib ji. As for those lines, they can be spoken towards Nirguna/Sarguna form of God. It is clear that those lines presented by you are towards Nirguna Sri Vaheguru Sahib ji.

 

॥ ਛਪਯ ਛੰਦ ॥ ਗਨਪਤਿ ਗੌਰੀ ਸੁਤ ਭਜਹੁ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਕੋ ਧਾਮ ॥
Worship the Master of the servants to Shiva, son of Parbati, and the house of all Ridh Sidh [mystical powers].

ਸੁਖ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਸਦਾ ਧਨ ਪਾਵਹੁ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ ॥
Forever bless me with happiness always, along with wealth and rest. 

ਏਕ ਰਦਨ ਗਜ ਬਦਨ ਸਦਨ ਗੌਰੀ ਸੁਖ ਨੰਦਨ ॥
The one with One Tooth, the face of an Elephant, sitting [in the house of] Parbati as her son giving happiness [to all]. 

ਬੁਧਿ ਦਾਇਕ ਅਘ ਹਰਨ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਰ ਕਿਲਵਿਖ ਖੰਡਨ ॥
Giver of intellect, destroyer of pain, forever the destroyer of the Angels' [Demigods/Devtiyan] sins. 

ਸੁਬੁਧਿ ਗ੍ਯਾਨ ਦਾਤਾ ਹਰੀ ਅਘ ਪਾਪ ਨਿਕੰਦਨ ॥
Giver of great intellect, Oh Hari and destroyer of sins. 

ਗਨਪਤਿ ਗੌਰੀ ਦੇਵਿ ਸੁਤ ਜੈ ਜੈ ਸਿਵ ਨੰਦਨ ॥
The Master of the servants of Shiva, son of Parbati, Hail Hail to the son of Shiva [Ganesh]. 
 

----

 

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਪਦਮ ਆਪਿ ਆਪੁ ਕੀਓ ਛਦਮ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲਖੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਤਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
You are the one holding the conch-shell, the mace and lotus [Krishna], and You yourself deceived [Baliraja as Bavan Avatar], Oh Limitless Par-brahm, who can know your true extent? 

ਸਤਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸਦਾ ਤੁਹੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥੭॥
Truely you are the Changeless Form and caretaker of Lakshmi, From the beginning and forever [true] You are, Vahiguru Vahiguru Vahiguru Vah Ji. 
 

Bhul chukh maaf kijye

OP hasn't mentioned it referring to Akaal. 

Quote

some of family members even said "Jai Mata Di" when one of the babies sneezed (though I have only heard them say this recently). My family still go to Mandirs where idols are worshipped when invited, once they were invited to the 'marriage' of the Hindu gods (the couple who paid for this 'wedding' did this ceremony as they did not have any children of their own) but they don't understand we should only worship God.

Please Don't start this again, I honestly don't care if you want to bow to Krishna, please do it by all means. However Gurbani is clear not to worship them. Bhagat Kabir even states making the distinction is extremely important.  Those lines are towards the Deities, even an imbecile like me can see that. consider the next lines say I don't recognize them but hear about them.

 

OP I'd consider reading Shabad Hazare Dasam Patshe and asking your family to listen to Katha on it, iirc it does an excellent explanation on why the worship of Gods and Goddesses are pointless, Should also point out that these gods are considered insects by Guru Sahib in comparison to Akaal. For the amritdhari family member I'd remind her of oaths during her sanchar, I'd also advise her to consult the punj pyare about how to rectify this mistake.

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58 minutes ago, Preeet said:

It clearly said worship them (regarding the lines), and now you are saying don't worship them? & yes those lines about not recognizing them, but hearing about them are also true because that is the ustat of the nirankar nirguna Sri Vaheguru Sahib ji. Not the Sarguna (bhul chuk maff kijye). & I don't care if you want to bow down to Sri Krishna ji, I'm writing this for the knowledge of the OP. Because I care.

God, If you want to go and Pray to Ganesh, then please do. I made a point about distinction. Actually please forgive me Bhagat Kabir Singh Ji maharaj  told us to make that distinction, in all his infinite wisdom, Something you Preeto  failed to comprehend, you've done this multiple times. Taken tukhs out of their context and based warped them to what you want them.  Do you know what the word Ganesh actually means, Parbati? Do know what all the weapons of Krishna symbolise? What the shell conch shows and symbolises? Go listen to Katha by various Panthic I'm sure they can shed so much light on it all, far more than me. That entire Shabad is regarding Akaal Purkh and his virtues, (that of intelligence). NOT of Ganesh the Deity. 

 

Last time it was Krishna, now its Ganesh :) Love to see who's your new favourite god to encourage the worship off.

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Though the trinity of gods, Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh lay claims to divinity and pose as contemplators of the Divine, yet they fail to realize the Lord in His entirety. However, O Lord, the one blessed by Thee can comprehend Thee through Thy own grace. The Lord is prevalent in all the world as the Eternal, Immanent One, but Invisible in form, revealed only to the rare few

^ From the Book Unditthi Duniya by Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, Who was a fully fledged GurSikh, who's the very pinnacle of a Mahapurkh, I'll take his word over than yours when it comes to worshipping gods/goddesses.  

 

There's enough proof in Shabad Hazare Dasam Pita for anyone to see not to worship these Gods. 

 

@OP please just tell your family to study Shabad Hazare Patsheh Dasami. All will be revealed.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Preeet said:

The distinction is based on which aspect they are praising when it comes to nirguna or sarguna. It clearly says Ganesh ji, who is the son of Parvati ji, and masters of 'servants' (ganas) of Shiva ji (That's why Ganesh ji is called Ganesh ji (gan=servants of Shiva ji, esh/eshvara=lord). Why does it concern you regarding the symbolism of Sri Krishna ji's attributes? Of course, this is all about Sri Paramatman ji's virtues. Clearly you are stuck in dvaita instead of advaita.. There is not 2, only 1. That 1 is including all of us. How can something exist without God? Is there something other than God that is doing something on it's own? The answer is no. Until you realize this you will be left arguing with the world.

Once again thank you for completely missing the point. Gan isn't referring to Shiva devotees, it refers to devotees of God. Pat= Lord, Lord of all Devotees (i.e God), once again that's your delusions because you subconsciously want to worship them.  Gauri means Beautiful (white but lets not be sticklers),  Now lets put it all together and you get....Ganesh mentioned there is attribution of Akaal (intelligence), NOT telling us to worship the Deity. T

॥ ਛਪਯ ਛੰਦ ॥ ਗਨਪਤਿ ਗੌਰੀ ਸੁਤ ਭਜਹੁ ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਕੋ ਧਾਮ ॥
 

Translate it all and you get, Worship the Beautiful lord of the devotees, the house of Spiritual Powers.

The Gods and Goddesses aren't attributes of god, they are his children. That being said God has all of their attributes (intelligence far beyond Ganesh, sustaining abilities far above Vishnu and so on). However they can be destroyed, He can't. If they disappear he still has those attributes. The fact that you just plucked it and didn't bother reading ahead to where it says hari (all residing) is further proof you didn't bother to read on ahead.

 

It concerns me because you have no clue what it means yet you come on here like you know all, if you don't even know what any of them symbolise then why on earth are you posting quotes about them? Read up on it, I've present proof from Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji who even stated Gods and Goddess pose as divines and we shouldn't venerate them, they haven't realised god. But of course the word of a Mahapurkh is nothing for you :)

Watch this 

Another really excellent video by Gyani Kulwant Singh Ji who explains how names for Gods/Goddess can be associated with Akaal but they are not a reference to the gods.

Clearly showing you how easy it is to fall into your own delusions. Sorry but please listen to people who have studied the texts, They know what they're talking about. You don't. All is God and God is all but not all is fully realised God. God can have any name. For example my friend David, The name means beloved in Hebrew, By that logic you can say the name can also ring true to god. However that does not make David, God.


 

Distinction is all important in Gurbani. 

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥
Kabeer Raam Kehan Mehi Bhaedh Hai Thaa Mehi Eaek Bichaar ||
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.
58648 ਸਲੋਕ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੭੪ ਪੰ. ੧੪ 
Salok Bhagat Kabir
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ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ॥੧੯੦॥
Soee Raam Sabhai Kehehi Soee Kouthakehaar ||190||
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||
58649 ਸਲੋਕ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੭੪ ਪੰ. ੧੪ 
Salok Bhagat Kabir
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ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥
Kabeer Raamai Raam Kahu Kehibae Maahi Bibaek ||
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.
58650 ਸਲੋਕ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੭੪ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Salok Bhagat Kabir
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ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ॥੧੯੧॥
Eaek Anaekehi Mil Gaeiaa Eaek Samaanaa Eaek ||191||
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||
58651 ਸਲੋਕ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੭੪ ਪੰ. ੧੫ 
Salok Bhagat Kabir

 

Honestly, I've presented ample proof. Your only proof is what your manmat wants it to be, im done here. Have fun shouting at yourself. 

 

I'm not the one trapped in anything, you are. You should quit flaunting around like a peacock and just accept the word from Mahapurkhs who knows far more than you or I. Of course that would mean accepting you're wrong. Which dear of Preeto never does.

 

this was a really good post by a user who knows way more than me regarding this very passage (until someone can analyse the FULL Shabads we don't even know what the actual context is).

Edit: Was brought to my attention by friend regarding Bhai Mani Singh Ji's Gyan Ratnavali where it states,

ਨਾਮ ਸਭ ਦੇਵਾਂ ਦਾ ਦੇਵ ਹੈ । ਕੋਈ ਦੇਵੀ ਨੂੰ ਮਨਾਂਵਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕੋਈ ਸ਼ਿਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ, ਕੋਈ ਗਣੇਸ਼ ਨੂੰ, ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਦੇਵਤਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ,

ਗੁਰੂ ਕੇ ਸਿਖ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਨੂੰ ਆਰਾਧਦੇ ਹੈਨ, ਜਿਸ ਕਰਕੇ ਸਭ ਵਿਘਨ ਨਾਸ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਦਾ ਮੰਗਲਾਚਾਰ ਆਦਿ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਹੈ ।

Name of God is gods of all. Some believe in goddess, some in Shiva and some others in Ganesha and other god.

Sikhs of the Guru do not contemplate anybody else other than Sat Naam (True Name) that destroys all disturbances and imperfections. That is why Sat-Naam is invoked in the beginning.

 

Take that how you want. 

 

 

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@Thanatos@Preeet

A polite request, please do not be overly rigid or black and white in your interpretations.

The word worship in a western sense is quite narrow whereas from an Indic viewpoint it has numerous meanings. An act a follower of an Eastern school of thought does would easily be considered as worship by western/orientalist standards, where as the follower them self would not consider it worship, by their own standards.

Thanatos Ji I understand the respect you have for Sants...I also see you have quoted Bhai Randhir Singh; AKJ aren’t exactly lovers of DG so I wouldn’t be too quick to quote them.

And we shouldn’t be saying who is or isn’t a fully fledged GurSikh, thats not really up to us. With this kind of thinking you would be marginalising a large number of Sikhs, especially those from traditional Sampardas.

Preet, I must say your Jai Mata Di comment is rather silly. Jai Mata Di exclusively refers to the physical manifestations of Devi by those who use this greeting, not the Jag Mata referred to in Bani.

Thanatos you seem to have a great aversion to Devi/Devte whereas Preet you seem to have a great affinity. Find some middle ground.

E.g. Please contemplate what you would do if Sri Krishan Ji Bhagwan graced you with their Darshan? Would you show them the front door or become their Bhagat for life?

Hint: The answer is neither but try and contemplate it optimistically and you’ll have your answer.

Vaheguru.

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4 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

@Thanatos@Preeet

A polite request, please do not be overly rigid or black and white in your interpretations.

The word worship in a western sense is quite narrow whereas from an Indic viewpoint it has numerous meanings. An act a follower of an Eastern school of thought does could be considered as worship by western/orientalist standards, where as the follower them self would not consider it worship by their own standards.

Thanatos Ji I understand the respect you have for Sants...I also see you have quoted Bhai Randhir Singh; AKJ aren’t exactly lovers of DG so I wouldn’t be too quick to quote them.

And we shouldn’t be saying who is or isn’t a fully fledged GurSikh, thats not really up to us. With this kind of thinking you would be marginalising a large number of Sikhs, especially those from traditional Sampardas.

Preet, I must say your Jai Mata Di comment is rather silly. Jai Mata Di exclusively refers to the physical manifestations of Devi by those who use this greeting, not the Jag Mata referred to in Bani.

Thanatos you seem to have a great aversion to Devi/Devte whereas Preet you seem to have a great affinity. Find some middle ground.

E.g. Please contemplate what you would do if Sri Krishan Ji Bhagwan graced you with their Darshan? Would you show them the front door or become their Bhagat for life?

Hint: The answer is neither but try and contemplate it optimistically and you’ll have your answer.

Vaheguru.

Bro I totally get what you mean about AKJ and their DS anti stance but Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote many articles defending Dasam. He even constructed research into it and explained many terms in it. AKJ now is a total Joke and Bhai Sahib Ji's hard work seems to have fallen on death ears after it was hijacked. Bhai Sahib did immense seva for the Panth, as did all the mahapurkh. I can tell by your response you don't seem to like the concept of forming Jatha, I may be assuming here. Nothing wrong there though.

 

If you get a moment I'd suggest reading this, really enlightened me (not saying you're unwise on the topic but its regarding Bhai Sahib's work toward Dasam Bani).

 

http://patshahi10.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=389:2011-03-16-10-30-15&catid=35&Itemid=64

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17 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Bro I totally get what you mean about AKJ and their DS anti stance but Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji wrote many articles defending Dasam. He even constructed research into it and explained many terms in it. AKJ now is a total Joke and Bhai Sahib Ji's hard work seems to have fallen on death ears after it was hijacked. Bhai Sahib did immense seva for the Panth, as did all the mahapurkh. I can tell by your response you don't seem to like the concept of forming Jatha, I may be assuming here. Nothing wrong there though.

 

If you get a moment I'd suggest reading this, really enlightened me (not saying you're unwise on the topic but its regarding Bhai Sahib's work toward Dasam Bani).

 

http://patshahi10.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=389:2011-03-16-10-30-15&catid=35&Itemid=64

Haanji I know. AKJ could hardly be considered "Bhai Randhir Singh Jatha" today.

Brother I recognize all the seva different Mahapurkh did for the Panth but I try and understand their words by taking into account their history, overall ideology and influences (political and Dharmic), it changes your interpretations greatly. In layman’s terms, take it with a pinch of salt.  

And no I don’t mind Jatha as long as it doesn’t become the “My God is better than yours” attitude we had in Primary School lol.

Thanks for the link bro. Will check it out later.

Anyway you just reminded me of something...

 

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