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Guest sahib

Did Any Of The Gurus Marry Outside Caste ?

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You don't beleive in the Guru Granth and Guru Panth?

YES of course I believe in GURU GRANTH & GURU PANTH. What is Guru Granth? It is the ETERNAL GURU SHABAD. What is Guru Panth? It is the KHALSA. What is the Khalsa? One becomes a Khalsa when totall and unequivocally submitting mind, body and soul to SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI MAHARAJ, and living according to Guru Ji's Rehat. This process begins when one takes Amrit in and Amrit Sanchar.

When one submits totally and unequivocally to SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI MAHARAJ and lives according to Guru Ji's they lose their caste. They become Khalsa pure and simple. This is what is meant by KHALSA MERO ROOP HAI KHAS. Guru Ji has NO CASTE and NOR DOES KHALSA. This is how we get GURU GRANTH AND GURU PANTH.

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What is Guru Panth? It is the KHALSA. What is the Khalsa? One becomes a Khalsa when totall and unequivocally submitting mind, body and soul to SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI MAHARAJ, and living according to Guru Ji's Rehat.

Is this Guru Khalsa physical or not?

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Is this Guru Khalsa physical or not?

YES Guru Khalsa is physical, BUT it has no caste. Guru is Khalsa and Khalsa is Guru. Guru is the Shabad and Khalsa lives the Shabad. KHALSA MERO ROOP KHAI KHAS, KHALSE MEIN HOON KARO NIVAS.

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There has never been Deh Dhari Gurus. Guru Nanak Dev Ji through to Guru Gobind Singh Ji was the shabad. Sikhi believes and always has believed in Shabad Guru.

ok, but here you seem to think otherwise?

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ok, but here you seem to think otherwise?

The way I see it is that Vaheguru created the deh in which he manifested his jyot and shabad. Then it is the jyot and shabad that is transferred from deh to deh into SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI MAHARAJ. The Khalsa Panth (GURU PANTH) was created to carry out the Rehat of the Guru. Like I said earlier Sri GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI tells us: BANI GURU, GURU HAI BANI, VICH BANI AMRIT SARE. When one takes Amrit from GURU JI, they become one with the bani. It is still the BANI that is Guru at the end of the day. I know it is difficult to understand. It may seem that I am contradicting myself, but it is clear in my mind. If you have any further difficulties understanding it, I urge you to think deeply in Shabad Guru. Just keep the shabad in your mind and all will be clear.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

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Guest Guru's had no caste

Mata Gujjar Kaur is the biggest proof that our Guru's had no caste.

Where did you read Mata Gujri ji was a Gujjar?

Sant Ji has done many katha re Mata Gujjar Kaur.

Gujjar is an ethnic tribe. It would hardly make sense for someone non-Zulu to be called Mata Zulu Kaur (presuming your familiarity with the Zulu tribe of South Africa).


"As late as 1757, Ahmed Shah Abdali carried out a massacre of Hindu Jats and Hindu Gujjars while invading Mathura, Vrindavan and Gokul during Holi.

But many Gujjars had always chosen death to Islam. The most revered instance is that of Mata Gujjar Kaur ' the mother of Guru Gobind Singh ' who along with her two grandsons Baba Zorawar Singh and Baba Fateh Singh chose to be bricked alive in a wall by Aurengzeb's henchman rather than reciting Kalima".

This is a piece written by author Dr Priyadarshi Dutta.



All of our Gurus were married in their own social group

Nonsense, that has historically only been asserted by Muslims, Hindu's and British enemies of the Sikh Panth. Sikhs should not fall prey to the same anti-Sikh rhetoric designed to perpetuate the caste system amongst Sikhs.

The Gujjars are a nomadic Muslim tribe that keeps cattle.

Would you please tell that to the crores of Hindu Gujjars in Rajasthan, Haryana, Delhi, UP and Gujarat who have achieved scheduled tribe status for millions of Hindu Gujjars.



So Sachin Pilot, Rajesh Pilot and the various Hindu Gujjar MP's are somehow Muslims in your perception because Gujjars happen to be a large landowning tribe in Pakistan?

Are you aware that many sources ascribe Gujjar ancestry to Baba Banda Singh Bahadur? Are you aware of the Gujjar ancestry of Sikh war hero Kuldip Singh Chandpuri? Heard of the famous Gujjar Sikh village of Chabrewal by any chance?


Amritdhari Residents of the Chabrewal Village

Rupnagar, Nurpur Bedi (KP) -  Recently, a local Punjabi newspaper published an inspiring article about a particular Punjab village in the foothills of the Shivaliks that has rapidly accepted the Sikhi way of live, en masse - a trend that is opposite of what is happening in rest of Punjab.  Perhaps this unique village can inspire others across Punjab to return to their Sikhi roots.

Village Chabrewal is a small village in Nurper Bedi situated in the hills of Shivalik.  Because of its small size, this village goes unnoticed by the rest of the world and it enjoys a simple lifestyle--remaining aloof from worldly facilities and luxuries.  During one time, this village, which is mostly populated with the people of the Gujjar clan, was known for its people’s smoking and drinking habits--but now, it has been completely transformed by conversions of people who have chosen to adopt the Sikh faith.  Amritdhari men and women can be spotted easily upon entering the village.

The population of this village remains scarce, at about 250, but Mela Ram has now become Mela Singh, Jog Raj has now become Jog Raj Singh and Dolat Ram has now become Dolat Singh.  At least one member of every family has taken up the Sikh way of life by adopting the path shown by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

According to Jog Raj Singh, the Chief of this Village, Sikh influence was brought here by a person named Mela Ram.  Mela Ram, Son of Babu Ram, was the first person to be baptized into the Khalsa Panth. Afterwards, he inspired many others as well.  Not only have the ordinary villagers taken up the Sikh way of life, many of the village’s amritdharis are eminent public figures.

Prof. Jaswinder Singh who teaches religious studies at the Kalgidhar Kanea School Kahnpur Khuhi said that Baba Dalip Singh Samirowal and Baba Gurcharan Singh, who performed seva of a historical shrine relating to the life of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, played a big role in nurturing Sikhi in this village.   In addition, Sikh Missionary College (Anandpur Sahib), Baba Channan Singh Suara and Principal Prem Singh Heerpur have continued to hold Gurmat related classes for the people which have helped many people.  Jaswinder Singh said that 1999 was a crucial year for the village as during this year, a large number of people became attached to bani and bana.

This area of the Shivalik Hills has been blessed with ‘charan-choh’ (presence and touch of the Holy Lotus feet) of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.  At Gurdwara Kataar Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh Ji blessed the father of Baba Sangat Singh Ji with a kataar.  Seva of this Gurdwara Sahib was organized by Baba Labh Singh Ji who handed the control of this shrine to the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee.  Sikh Sangat visits this historical shrine in big numbers during the annual nangar kirtan and on special monthly programs.

(Original story appeared in the Punjabi version of Ajit)

Mata Gujri ji's father was (Gujjar) Lal Chand of Kartarpur, and mother was Bisan Kaur.

Yes they were Gujjars. Most Indian Gujjars to this day have the middle name Singh.

Does that sound like Muslim names?

All Gujjars were originally Hindu. Nowadays they are Hindu, Muslim and Sikh. Lal Chand and Bishan Kaur were of Gujjar ancestry as indeed were Mata Gujjar Kaur and of course Dasam Pita by extension. What is your problem with that? Why are you so keen to falsely classify (as the RSS wish) our Guru's as being from or marrying into one caste?

Assuming Lal Chand and his family were Gujjars, do you think that Guru Hargobind Ji could find no other marriage match than a bunch of wandering cattle-herders?

What a pathetic and casteist point of view which in no way refutes the truth of Mata Gujjar Kaur's Gujjar ancestry. Mata Gujjar Kaur for myself and all Sikh Sangat are higher in Sikhi than whichever rotten caste you ascribe higher status to.

Lal Chand and family resided at Kartarpur, having formerly resided at Lakhnaur.Resided, not wandering around.

If you seriously think all the tens of millions from the Gujjar tribe in India and Pakistan are all nomads, then you are very mistaken. It is akin to claiming all Irish people are travellers because a minority of them may happen to be.

Also, assuming Lal Chand ji's family were Gujjars, I think you know very well that if Muslims want to marry their daughter to somebody non-Muslim, they insist on the groom getting circumsized and initiated into Islam, if only as a formality.
Why do you assume that Lal Chand and Bishan Kaur are Gujjars of Muslim ancestry? Do you believe that Gujjars cannot have faith in Sikhi? If most Gujjars globally are non-Muslim your whole premise falls flat on its head. There are many thousand of Sikhs of Gujjar ancestry - the most famous of which being Mata Gujjar Kaur Ji.
So do you think that our Satguru, Guru Teg Bahadur ji, was a Muslim and had accepted that Mohammed was the Prophet of God?
No Guru Sahib rejected the peadophile slave trader known as Muhammad but your whole assertion that Lal Chand and Bishan Kaur were Muslims is highly laughable. They were of Gujjar ancestry yes but no they were not Muslim. If most Jatts are Muslims it does not follow that a small minority of those with Jatt ancestry cannot choose Sikhi. Similarly, if most Punjabi Khatri's are Pakistani Muslim Sheikhs it does not mean that some Sikhs cannot be of Khatri ancestry.
If so, what was the point of Emperor Aurangzeb beheading Guru Sahib? Guru ji was already a Muslim!
Again, this ties in with the lie asserted by Muslims, Hindu's and British enemies of Sikhi. That may be your belief - keep it to yourself!
Finally, how many families name their daughter after their caste?
Conversely, why would a specific tribal name be ascribed to Mata Gujjar Kaur, were it not for the fact that Mata Gujjar Kaur's ancestry was indeed Gujjar.
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Guest Rohit
On 5/11/2014 at 10:56 PM, Guest StarStriker1 said:

Actually guru tegh bahadur married mata gujari, who was of the Gujjar tribe/caste, so yes 1 of our gurus did marry outside of their khatri tribe!

Please don't give false replies Mata Gujri was not from Gurjar caste She was also from Khatri caste

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Guest gopi nath

Caste doesn't come into it and is meaningless i.e. occupation. However I think gotras are used to prevent incest i.e. not marrying into mother, father and grandmothers' gotras (4) since the ancestors are considered same. 

More info on this from elder gursikhs would be helpful.


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Guest Sat
On 5/11/2014 at 3:16 AM, Guest sahib said:

Did any of our gurus set an example or pioneered the move of marrying outside caste ?

and Did any of them go against their own parents wishes that were based on cultural traditions ?

It's not pioneering to marry out of caste...it's stupidity to believe in caste. 

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