Basicsofsikhi And 3Ho And Yogi Bhajan Question

[JeevanCymro]

ITs simple Barinder Ji go and ask Jagraj pahji. What other Singhs on here have said is plain and simple. Itw as posted on here without trying every opportunity to get a DIRECT answer directly from source. It would have been fair game had Basics of Sikhi replied to you and youTHEN SHARED the reply with a post...but no keyboard warriors strike again. Im sorry im a total murak and can't think of a better more constructive way to tell you without causing offence and I apologise but it is pretty simple...you have a problem go to the source and try and sort it out as any Gursikh should do with HUMILITY...if the reply is not gurmat and are causing you a problem then let sangat know citing what in the response you were unsure of or what is Beadbi etc. The baba argument is, I'm sorry, nothing to do with this ...its about common decency...give a whole picture of account not just that you were unhappy. You could always make the Akal Takht aware of your concerns/opinions.

[Deletedkp]

Kphull Jee, when you talk of "Sikh dharma", do you believe it is a religious path with no rehit and sidhaants?

My friend, I use the term "Sikh dharma", if I wanted to define it as a religion, then I would have said "SIkh religion". Sikh Dharam, to me, has no rehit or any religious body controlling the dharam.

I have said in my previous post, If you want to follow these religious bodies and you need their wisdom then please do so. But, don't expect everyone to follow.

[Deletedkp]

Sikh dharma belongs to Akal Takht. Akal Takht is our supreme authority of the Sikhs. 3HO can be part of Sikhi if they drop the kundalini yoga and hindu rituals which is against Sikhi. Yogi Bhajan didn't even like Sant Jarnail SIngh ji and wanted to get rid of him. This cult just hurts Sikhs overall. I don't care if they bring awareness or gain thousands of followers. I would rather have one person following the real path of Sikhi. I guarantee many mahapurakhs would call these people blind fools.....

I disagree, The SIkh religion in its organised state may belong to Akal Thakat. The Dharam (the knowledge) does not belong to anyone. If the 3ho Sikhs are not abiding by rules of Akal Thakat, then its simple, they will split and create their own label. For 3ho Sikhs, its not about the label. The yoga practice and the rituals are the basics to their lifestyle. If Akal Thakat disagrees with them, do you really think they will change their ways? I don't think so.

This cult just hurts Sikhs overal

How are they hurting Sikhs overall?

I guarantee many mahapurakhs would call these people blind fools.....

Again, do you really think, they give any thoughts on Mahapurakhs based in India?

The knowledge from the Gurus don't belong to just the Sikhs, it belongs to the universe, be it may Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Devil worshippers, Atheists. Akal Thakat is not in control of this.

[BarinderSingh]

Once again the over zealous chelas could not control themselves and had to drive the topic into the gutter. Jagraj Singh took the time to come here and write, but his chelas could not just control themselves for a second. I hope you lot are proud of yourselves. Pat yourself on your back for your accomplishment. These chelas will burn every book that would not agree with their Baba. I'm a dog of Guru Sahib. I barked in the direction i needed too.

[Deletedkp]

Once again the over zealous chelas could not control themselves and had to drive the topic into the gutter. Jagraj Singh took the time to come here and write, but his chelas could not just control themselves for a second. I hope you lot are proud of yourselves. Pat yourself on your back for your accomplishment. These chelas will burn every book that would not agree with their Baba. I'm a dog of Guru Sahib. I barked in the direction i needed too.

Keep on barking then.

[ms514]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

http://www.gurmukhyoga.com/sikhism_and_tantric_yoga.pdf - some information on the 3HO crowd.

Let's take it from this perspective: If the Kana Tesiyan incident occurred where people were dancing in the presence of Gurbani was condemned, why not this (yes, Guru Sahib's saroop is not present, but Gurbani is being playes and danced to)? What makes the 3HO crowd the sacred cow when if any Punjabi group does it, we would be out for blood, but since it is 3HO, well, you know, they don't know any better? Why do we keep insisting that they are naive and don't know any better when they have been around since the 70s (listed as the origins of Sikh Dharma).

Its not like the Western Sikhs don't know about Sikhs - it has been decades. They run one of the biggest websites related to Sikhi - Sikhnet. They should be fully aware of what Sikhi is at this point and have had ample time to get out of their New Mexico location and mix with the Sikh body at large (and from all stories presented on Sikhnet - they do). Sorry to say, but there are non Punjabi Sikhs who did not come from the 3HO/Yoga crew who integrated into the Sikhs at large just fine without doing Bhangra and yoga. Many of them have a severe dislike because of the corrupt message sent out by 3HO.

The "oooh...look at the white clothing and the large Dastaar" awe-gawking has to stop and they needed to be held to the same standards of the Panth. I have gone to the LA Gurughar of the Sikh Dharma - it was an interesting experience, where a Western Sikh Bibi told me that I should not say "Karah Parshad" in Ardaas because "Sri Singh Sahib" said a Karah was a bowl in which animal sacrifices are done and I should call it Guruprasad (or some similar variation)- so the entire Panth is wrong and Yogi Bhajan was a BrahmGyani??? Whatever "Sri Singh Sahib" said is gold and what the Panth does is stupid - this seems to be a root cause of the problem.

The SikhiWiki website (run by Sikhnet) still has an article that attempts to validate that dancing is completely acceptable in Sikhi. When I edited the article, it was immediately taken down and when challenged by Gurbani, there was basically no substantial response provided.

You can read here:

http://forums.waheguroo.com/index.php?/topic/35829-guru-sahib-is-telling-us-to-do-bhangra/

It's not ignorance - its arrogance and a disdain for their Punjabi Sikh brethren that is driving this behavior. It needs to stop and they need to openly either be a part of the Panth or declare themselves separate. And we need to stop making excuses for them. The people dancing, I don't blame - the 3HO organizers are fully responsible.

[Jonny101]

My friend, I use the term "Sikh dharma", if I wanted to define it as a religion, then I would have said "SIkh religion". Sikh Dharam, to me, has no rehit or any religious body controlling the dharam.

I have said in my previous post, If you want to follow these religious bodies and you need their wisdom then please do so. But, don't expect everyone to follow.

Kphull jee, Well I don't know about how you define words, but in India Sikh Dharm means Sikh religion. Hindu Dharm means Hindu religion, Budh Dharm means Budhist religion. Sikhi is full of Sidhants known as Gurmat(way of the Gurus). Sikhi is not Sikhi without it's rehit. The two are inseparable. Your Sidhaantless, Rehitless "Sikh Dharm" where anything and everything is allowed whether it is doing Naach, Kurahits, practicing sexual deviancies is not Sikhi at all. I don't know what it is.

[kharkusingh1996]

I disagree, The SIkh religion in its organised state may belong to Akal Thakat. The Dharam (the knowledge) does not belong to anyone. If the 3ho Sikhs are not abiding by rules of Akal Thakat, then its simple, they will split and create their own label. For 3ho Sikhs, its not about the label. The yoga practice and the rituals are the basics to their lifestyle. If Akal Thakat disagrees with them, do you really think they will change their ways? I don't think so.

This cult just hurts Sikhs overal

How are they hurting Sikhs overall?

I guarantee many mahapurakhs would call these people blind fools.....

Again, do you really think, they give any thoughts on Mahapurakhs based in India?

The knowledge from the Gurus don't belong to just the Sikhs, it belongs to the universe, be it may Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Devil worshippers, Atheists. Akal Thakat is not in control of this.

Lol oh man yeah sorry 3ho sikhs are much more devoted to Sikhi than mahapurakhs who have merged with the One. I think mahapurakhs know right from wrong in Sikhi. Akal Takht is the supreme throne of the Sikhs. Guru Hargobind himself started it and till now it is our authority but many Sikhs don't follow it. People might say it is corrupt and they have their opinion but it is our supreme authority still just like Catholics have the Church even though it has gone through rough times.

To be honest if you know about Yogi Bhajan and how he was against Sant Jarnail Singh ji and many sexual assault cases against him in America do you really think Sikhs want anything of their blind rituals and meaningless yoga practices?

[jaggasio]

Sangat ji, daas Jagraj singh here. I just want to point out that I dont have any chele. If I did, then trust me, I;d have them editing videos and answering youtube comments rather than myself. Nor am I a baba, again evidenced by the fact that I'm online too much and not on the line to akaal purakh ji.

Anyway, I think this thread is more about 3HO, KY and Sikhi and less about BasicsofSikhi. Please note, we do not promote dancing, doing beadbi or doing yoga as spiritual practice, we only promote Gurbani and Sikh history. The ask.fm question that veer Barinder Singh asked was answered by one of our sevadaars who is not into 3HO but a gursikh piara who tends to speak good of everyone. I dont intend to ask him to change that. Please do not take that the wrong way.

My benti to all those who read this thread is simply this. Please think long term. Our Guru did so and so should we. In raamkali ki vaar, Satte and Balvand describe Dhan Guru Angad Dev ji as "nere dekhe maat log, tudh sujhai door" "Humans look to short-term but you see far ahead". Remember that Yogi Bhajan is now gone but his legacy lives on. You have these people who wish to find God, be healthy and do dharam. They read Japji sahib and respect all our 10 Gurus and their Gurbani. How should the Sikh panth react to them? With Love and With education. Teaching Gurbani and Gurus History is the ONLY solution in the long term. My deepest fear ( see I'm not a baba) is that we might push them away like we pushed away the Ravidaasi community. We should focus on education/ parchar and teaching Gurmat to

(1) Punjabis (2) western youth of punjabi origin (3) people in 3ho community (4) general westerners. All four groups need the same thing but each need it tailored to them. Daas's recommendations are

(1) Punjabis - focus on Gurbani explanation to show depth of spiritual message - will adopt Amrit quite easily

(2) western youth of punjabi origin - focus on Gurbani plus Sikh ethics (deg teg fateh) and relation to modern science. dont push away mone and people who cut beards, eyelashes etc. These need a lot more history - Will take longer to take Amrit but are strong Sikhs - always will have some who love Sikhi but dont take Amrit

(3) people in 3ho community - focus on worship of shabad and avoid criticising Yoga - will keep rehat easily but Amrit and True love for Gurus comes from learning more history of Gurus. Must be Khalsa's job to inspire them with sant sipahi action, ie foreign aid, khalsa army

(4) general westerners - need to very much more focused on systematic education, acceptance of people who dont keep kesh etc. Basically for every 10 average gore that come into Sikhi, 1 will take amrit, so we'll have to accept that there will be thousands of mone gore who like Sikhi and say "I'm kind of following Sikhi" and we cant judge them cause its going to be their grand kids that are the Khalsa of the future.

we need to adopt a minimum 100 year plan and work to implement that plan. Its quite likely that all hell will break loose in the meantime but we can only prepare for that as a contingency, not as a given. I think that the 100 year plan will really work when we have a UK takht, a US takht and each headed by a Punj Piare who are rehitvaan, vidhvaan, giaanvaan GurSikhs that are widely respected.

[N30S1NGH]

Just to add what Jagraj Singh said,

According to my observation:

Whats daily Gurmat routine in 3HO organization:

1. Get up at amrit vela at 3 am ishnan, contemplate on japji sahib every morning 7 days a week 365 days a year

2. Mantra/Shabad/Naam chanting from gurbani and sri dasam guru granth sahib bani

3. Yog sadhanas kriyas (sas gras swas swas simran/kundalini yoga) incorporated with shabad for meditation

4. Wearing Bana openly. Keski for women, women empowerment.

5. Kirtan- devotional Singing

6. Exercise- Yoga-health reasons/Gatka

7. Healthy Living diet

8. Senior 3ho sikhs, beleive in Sri guru granth sahib as living guru and beleive in concept of khalsa have guru sahib parkash, celebrate gurpurbs, nagar kirtan etc.

9. Spread sikhi to other non sikhs parchar intially through kundalini yoga as first step just get them into it and slowly get them into shabad surat aspect of sikhi -kundalini yoga incorporate with shabad mantras, faith building process (vidhiyas similiar like sharda poran granth by bhai mani singh ji) and bhagti-kirtan bhakti aspect of sikhi -gurbani kirtan amritvela- so much beautiful devotional kirtan from spirit voyage and kirtan on youtube.

10. Spread gurmat raj yog to humanity -healing to humanity- kundalini healing equilvaent chii energy for body related issues and also provide gurbani shabads (vidhias-techinques as similiar to sharda poran granth by bhai mani singh ji) to improve health, prosperity, spiritual life also in this way it builds more faith in gurbani, encourage healthy marriage life while strike right balance between gurmat spirituality and social life, against asceticism

11. For most part , recognize final message or stage as they pay very close attention to khalsa updesh in khalsa mehima in sri dasam granth- worship only one light prevadaing all, intially use kundalini yoga (small aspect in shabad surat marg) to create a space in meditation.

Whats contary to gurmat in 3ho organization/events and not picking on 3ho, there are things which other groups are lacking as well if we deeply research no group is perfect or infallible, every group in the sikh panth has short coming no group can claim they are sole custodians of gurmat:

1. Get rid of all white tantric seminars hocus pocus stuff in seminars held twice a year

2. Get rid of commerialization-lot of people wants to take teachers training and make quick buck.

3. New comers to 3ho- Dancing like hippies on gurbani- all though one can argue their intentions are good and they in trance and is acceptable but they should be discouraged when it comes to uphold sanctity of gurbani, other groups were discourged as well. Senior 3ho gursikhs can help with the rules.

3. Get rid of numerlogy, astrology all the other stuff so people don't get sway away

4. Occasional bowing to Baba sri chand idol outside

5. Any kind of idol worship be it interfaith or otherwise

6. Kundalini yoga teachers training- thats turning out to be road block as its more bragging for tropphy/egoic accomplishment course than real message.

7. Evidence of mechinic robotic kundalini kriyas without any devotion of some 3ho members

So at this point, its not up to me as i can only provide recommendation, but its up to leaders of west to decide what to do with them, either we can push them away the way its done by certain individuals or have graceful gursikhi approach of embracing them and helping them. In past, senior gursikhs such baba nihal singh ji harianbela, bhai fauja singh ji shahid was instrumental as a bridge to connect between 3ho members and punjabi sikh community helping each other in both ways-baba nihal singh ji still mingle and assist guide where its required, also helps integrating them in mainstream like gurbani santhiya etc-charid-kalah jatha and along with other memebers of 3ho gursikhs best example of bit of full gursikhi package. Both punjabi sikh community and western sikh community can learn from each other . United we stand divided we fall.