On Bhagat Bani.

[13Mirch]

OK, I wasn't aware that team ravidassia believe that bhagat was guru of the gurus..........to be honest, .. that is their problem, as we have the current Guru maneyo granth.... that's all I need and the hukam I follow.

I'm not sure about the Topi thing, but you could be correct because I have come across mention of ''seli topi''

I don't know too much about this with regard to history and dastar,.... but I wonder what Guru Nanak wore when he went to Mecaa ?

The Nihungs say it was a blue bana, Bhai Gurdass ratifies them on this. Historically during that time period pilgrims to Mecca wore blue and the local authorities had opened it up for all infidels.

[pangaphish]

Ok.

I will rephrase the same question.

Is it possible to believe that Bhagat Ravidass was not necessarily a follower of our Guru's ideology but made limited pronouncements of enlightened thought?

Thus not quite a disciple?

Whether he was a Hindu or not is actually irrelevant.

I ask these questions in relation to the original post only.....

[savinderpalsingh]

blue bana was wore by many muslim fakirs. so i guess many wore it to see mecca?

like patshahi 10vi wore blue bana and was regarded as uch da peer to goto safe place?

[Jonny101]

All the Bhagats have Bani which is not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

My view on this is: the Bhagat Sahibaan were followers of Gurmat. They became Sikhs of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee who blessed them with Gurmat Naam Dheekhya. And from the day they became Sikhs of Guru Ji, only that Bani was accepted in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee while the Bani they wrote before meeting Guru Nanak Dev Jee was not including. Receiving Dhur Ki Bani is no ordinary event. This Ilaahi Bani descends directly from Sachkhand. Only a person who has reached Brahmgian avastha can receive it.

Last time this debate took a very ugly turn. Some turned it into a caste issue because they did not want a Bhagat who they perceived to be of a lower caste to be considered a Sikh. And among those casteists two people attacked me because they themselves did not wear turban and for this reason made it an issue by attacking me viciously for daring to say the Bhagats wore a Dastar. The worst thing is, they even insulted respected elder Gursikhs of our Panth who also said the same. So I will not debate this issue further.

[Mehtab Singh]

For those who have studied under the Indian system, they would know that there are several dohay (couplets) of Bhagat Kabeer jee that are taught in schools. These are totally different from the Gurbani Shabads of Bhagat Kabeer jee. Thus it makes it even more clear that at some point some transformation did happen. I may not be the best person to say what exactly, but this could be it...

They became Sikhs of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee who blessed them with Gurmat Naam Dheekhya. And from the day they became Sikhs of Guru Ji, only that Bani was accepted in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee while the Bani they wrote before meeting Guru Nanak Dev Jee was not including.

Last time this debate took a very ugly turn. Some turned it into a caste issue because they did not want a Bhagat who they perceived to be of a lower caste to be considered a Sikh. And among those casteists two people attacked me because they themselves did not wear turban and for this reason made it an issue by attacking me viciously for daring to say the Bhagats wore a Dastar. The worst thing is, they even insulted respected elder Gursikhs of our Panth who also said the same. So I will not debate this issue further.

ਯਾਰ ਇਹ ਇਨਟਰਨੈਟ ਹੈ, ਇਥੇ ਆਕੇ ਗਿੱਦੜ ਵੀ ਗੱਜਣ ਲੱਗ ਪਾਇੰਦੇ ਨੇ | ਤੁਹਾਨੂ ਜੇ ਕਿਸੇ ਜਣੇ-ਖਣੇ ਨੇ ਬਕਵਾਸ ਕੀਤੀ ਵੀ ਹੈ, ਤਾਂ ਇਨਟਰਨੈਟ ਤੇ ਕਿਹੜਾ ਓਹਨੇ ਤੁਹਾਡਾ ਕੁਛ ਪੱਟ ਲੈਣਾ ?

[N30S1NGH]

All dharam have four levels- shariat, tariqat, marfat , hakikat.The way i see its quite simple, all bhagats in gurbani- rejected (or may be transcedent its better term) outer rituals of their dharam -shariat, tariqat even rejected avtar/prophet - sargun saroop of maha vishnu as they evolved in their spiritual development realize (by kirpa of non dual nanak supreme consciouness vahiguroo- some sikhs wants this turn into nanak abhramic version falling into same traps many muslims, christians and hindus fell with their respective prophets) final stage- hakikat- advait marg- non dualism which essence is same as gurmat advait marg. So at the end they don't belong to any structure/organized dharam.

From that debate over turban issue reminds of religious issues existed in sri guru nanak dev ji time where muslim and hindu leaders came to claim satguru nanak dev ji body- muslim wanted to bury him and hindus wanted to ceremate him in return they got flower which they both divided and took home.

No specific dharam owns Satgurus/ bhagats period. They dont belong to anyone specific as they belong to all as they are merged in nirankar and nirankar is sarab vypak. If both sides want to really give respect to bhagats, they would do so but by abiding in the final teachings of bhagat in gurbani of -

"kabir tu tu karta tu hua , mujh mein rha na hoon

jab aapa par ka mitt gya , jat dekhaan tat tu"

Rather than arguing over bhagat wore sargun symbolism- turban or not. It really does not matter if they did or not..at the end they disassociated with their temporary body-panj bhootak (read shalok nauvan how illusory this five element body is ) and egoic transient mind when they realized their one all prevading jot/parbhram paratma. It would make sense to argue over bhagat outer garb- sargun symbol when bhagat is claiming they are body but when bhagats themselves are claiming they are jot saroop-"kabir tu tu karta tu hua , mujh mein rha na hoon jab aapa par ka mitt gya , jat dekhaan tat tu"and all of this is useless.

[13Mirch]

Ok.

I will rephrase the same question.

Is it possible to believe that Bhagat Ravidass was not necessarily a follower of our Guru's ideology but made limited pronouncements of enlightened thought?

Thus not quite a disciple?

Whether he was a Hindu or not is actually irrelevant.

I ask these questions in relation to the original post only.....

Was Bhagat Ravidass a Hindu? Our understanding of the Hinduism is derived from the modern phase of the Vedas, historis Vedas and the pre-Vedic era. Around Bhagat Ravidass's era, dalits were not allowed to utilize the vedas; Bhagat Ji's spiritualism would then have been derived from different non-Vedic sources. Geographically he was a Hindu, but otherwise? No.

[GPS]

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਪਾਠੁ ਪੜਿਓ ਅਰੁ ਬੇਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰਿਓ ਨਿਵਲਿ ਭੁਅੰਗਮ ਸਾਧੇ ॥

पाठु पड़िओ अरु बेदु बीचारिओ निवलि भुअंगम साधे ॥Pāṯẖ paṛi▫o ar beḏ bīcẖāri▫o nival bẖu▫angam sāḏẖe.

They read scriptures, and contemplate the Vedas; they practice the inner cleansing techniques of Yoga, and control of the breath.

ਪੰਚ ਜਨਾ ਸਿਉ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਛੁਟਕਿਓ ਅਧਿਕ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਬਾਧੇ ॥੧॥

पंच जना सिउ संगु न छुटकिओ अधिक अह्मबुधि बाधे ॥१॥

Pancẖ janā si▫o sang na cẖẖutki▫o aḏẖik ahaʼn▫buḏẖ bāḏẖe. ||1||

But they cannot escape from the company of the five passions; they are increasingly bound to egotism. ||1||

ਪਿਆਰੇ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਿਲਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਮੈ ਕੀਏ ਕਰਮ ਅਨੇਕਾ ॥पिआरे इन बिधि मिलणु न जाई मै कीए करम अनेका ॥

Pi▫āre in biḏẖ milaṇ na jā▫ī mai kī▫e karam anekā.

O Beloved, this is not the way to meet the Lord; I have performed these rituals so many times.

ਹਾਰਿ ਪਰਿਓ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਕੈ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਦੀਜੈ ਬੁਧਿ ਬਿਬੇਕਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

हारि परिओ सुआमी कै दुआरै दीजै बुधि बिबेका ॥ रहाउ ॥

Hār pari▫o su▫āmī kai ḏu▫ārai ḏījai buḏẖ bibekā. Rahā▫o.

I have collapsed, exhausted, at the Door of my Lord Master; I pray that He may grant me a discerning intellect. ||Pause||

ਮੋਨਿ ਭਇਓ ਕਰਪਾਤੀ ਰਹਿਓ ਨਗਨ ਫਿਰਿਓ ਬਨ ਮਾਹੀ ॥

मोनि भइओ करपाती रहिओ नगन फिरिओ बन माही ॥

Mon bẖa▫i▫o karpāṯī rahi▫o nagan firi▫o ban māhī.

One may remain silent and use his hands as begging bowls, and wander naked in the forest.

ਤਟ ਤੀਰਥ ਸਭ ਧਰਤੀ ਭ੍ਰਮਿਓ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਛੁਟਕੈ ਨਾਹੀ ॥੨॥

तट तीरथ सभ धरती भ्रमिओ दुबिधा छुटकै नाही ॥२॥

Ŧat ṯirath sabẖ ḏẖarṯī bẖarmi▫o ḏubiḏẖā cẖẖutkai nāhī. ||2||

He may make pilgrimages to river banks and sacred shrines all over the world, but his sense of duality will not leave him. ||2||

SGGS JI 641

[luckysingh99]

Guru Nanak ji in Sidh Gosht tells the sidhs that his guru is Shabad

.........''Shabad Guru Surat Dhun chela''

The shabad is the guru and his resonating subtle inner surat (sukhsham sareer) is the chela

Did the bhagats have a guru ?

Yes, they had all found their guru through GURMAT.

This Guru that comes via GURMAT is the Divine/BIBEK understanding.

The bibek buddhi that makes you awake/realise the TRUTH.

This is what they sometimes call realisation..

It is the same kind of nirgun connection with the True ONE.

The funny thing is that the exact same questions of what is being asked here is what Kabir ji addressed.

For everyone that is asking who is who's guru and then giving higher and lower regards to saints,bhagats..and gurus...........

..................

In pangtees below, Kabir ji, simply says... ''BIBEK is my Guru, the one that has help me realise and find the True ONE".....who is aad jugaad and forever will be

ਸੰਤਾ ਕਉ ਮਤਿ ਕੋਈ ਨਿੰਦਹੁ ਸੰਤ ਰਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਏਕ ॥
Sanṯā ka▫o maṯ ko▫ī ninḏahu sanṯ rām hai eko.
Let no one slander the Saints, because the Saints and the Lord are as one.

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਮੈ ਸੋ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਨਾਉ ਬਿਬੇਕ ॥੪॥੫॥
Kaho Kabīr mai so gur pā▫i▫ā jā kā nā▫o bibeko. ||4||5||
Says Kabeer, I have found that Guru, whose Name is Clear Understanding. ||4||5||

Guru Nanak ji has given us the shabad through which we can attain the same realisation by making efforts to go antarghat.

[jkvlondon]

So, is it possible that Bhagat Ravidass was and remained a Hindu?

That his limited inclusion is an indication of his limited enlightenment?

Dastardhari or otherwise?

since when was wearing a dastaar limited to sikhs ...at the time many different religions wore turbans...true ,styles might have been different