Shastar Puja

[sikhiseeker]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Yeah, given I am located in California and don't have any plans to go to India...not going to happen any time soon. If you have a picture of the relevant inscription, I will be more than happy to read.

"if your cup is already full , if anyone will try to put something in it , it will only spill out

come back and learn things with more open mind ."

How...philosophical. Thanks. There is a difference between having an open mind and blindly accepting something that is not (at least without further explanation, hence the Sant Jwala Singh Harkhowal story I inserted) in line with Gurbani or no solid references can be provided for a statement.

Whatever...if you want to declare victory or something in this thread, go ahead...do a few Jakarae and whatnot if it makes you feel better. This is going nowhere fast.

WJKK WJKF

The mool mantra starts with ik onkar, the creator of all and within the creation itself. Just as we believe, as gurbani teaches us, plants, animals, trees, the earth.....etc is all the creation of akaal purakh, the very matter of the creation is akal purakh, the devte devia are too a creation of god, they are of a different embodiment and of a different intellect, they are a highly intelligent extra terrestrial race in comparison to humans, hence why the worship of these entities by humans has been done throughout time. However as of all the creations of akaal purakh, they are imperfect, only the creator is perfect. So the devte devia battle with the same 5 vices jut the same as us.

When we see the mishandling sahib outside a gurdwara on the wag to work in the car, we pay our respect in namashakar. When we as Sikhs see someone's funereal procession, we do namashakar, when we see our elders we give respect and namashakar. This is why Guru Gobind Singh hi told us to namashakar weapons, guns, swords, axes, bows, chakra....etc. like how they namashakar the weapons when performing gatka.

So why would our guru jibtell us to namashakar a physical object?

Because within that object, when placed within the hand of the Khalsa fauj, the shakti of akaal purakh and the ultimate warrior throughout the ages, Durga is present. This is why we should do namashakar to this entity within the steel, as it is apart of akaal purakh as akaal purakh is everything.

If the Kirpan is just a mere object, why do we need to do bhog with it to pars had within the gurdwara, why not just eat the parshad straight after the hukamna or do the bhog with a big spoon, why a big Kirpan? Also why did Guru Gobind Singh use a Khanda to stir the Amrit, why not use a ladle?

[ms514]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Thanks for the picture - I will review it and check it against some things.

Sikhiseeker Jio, there is no mention of opposing respect and Namaskar of Shastars at all. This is an established sign of respect to do Namaskar of Shastar per Dasam Patshah's Bani. I am not disputing that, the question at hand is anointing Shastar with blood.

ਜਿਤੇ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਮੰ ॥ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਤਾਮੰ ॥

Jite Sasatra Naaman ॥ Namasakaar Taaman ॥

I salute all the weapons of various names

ਜਿਤੇ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਭੇਯੰ ॥ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਤੇਯੰ ॥੯੧॥

Jite Asatra Bheyaan ॥ Namasakaar Teyaan ॥91॥

I salute all kinds of armour.91.

Sorry for side tracking the thread with this new element of Mata Sahib Kaur's origins - it does seem to be somewhat (at least for now) a side topic from the main issue.

[DelhiTakht]

Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj Ne Dasam Granth Saheb vicho kai vaar aneka prakara naal SHASTAR di mahanta te SHASTAR nu Namskaar karde hoye kai phanktiya ucharan kite han

Shastar nu banaun wale parmatma nu jap k Shastar astar saja k Jo Singh Tyaar bhar tyaar Rahega te apne Darshan devega.. mein ustho Balehare janda ha..

ਤਬ ਇਮ ਭਨਿਯੋ ਗਰੀਬ ਨਿਵਾਜ਼॥

ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਨ ਕੇ ਅਧੀਨ ਹੈ ਰਾਜ॥

ਧੁਨੰ ਸੰਗ ਸਾਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਜੀ ਸੁਨਾਈ॥

ਬਿਨਾ ਤੇਗ ਤੀਰੰ ਰਹੇ ਨਾਹਿ ਭਾਈ॥

ਬਿਨਾ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਕੇਸੰ ਨਰੰ ਭੇਡ ਜਾਨੋ॥

ਗਹੇ ਕਾਨ ਤਾਕੋ ਕਿਤੇ ਲੈ ਸਿਧਾਨੋ॥

ਇਹੇ ਮੋਰ ਆਗਿਆ ਸੁਨ ਲੇਹੁ ਪਿਆਰੇ॥

ਬਿਨਾ ਤੇਗ ਕੇਸੰ ਨਾ ਦੇਵੋ ਦਿਦਾਰੇ॥

ਯਾ ਤੇ ਸਰਬ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਸੁਨੀਅਹਿ ॥

ਆਯੁਧ ਧਰਬੇ ਉਤਮ ਗੁਨੀਅਹਿ ॥

ਜਬ ਹੁਮਰੇ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਕੋ ਆਵਹੁ ॥

ਬਨ ਸੁਚੇਤ ਤਨ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਜਵਹੁ ॥

ਕਮਰਕਸਾ ਕਰ ਦੇਹ ਦਿਖਾਈ ॥

ਹਮਰੀ ਖੁਸ਼ੀ ਹੋਇ ਅਧਿਕਾੲੀ ॥

BACHITAR NATAK

PATSHAHI DASVI

ਨਰਾਜ ਛੰਦ ॥

ਜਿਤੇਕ ਰਾਜ ਰੰਕਯੰ ॥ ਹਨੇ ਸੁ ਕਾਲ ਬੰਕਯੰ ॥

All the kings and pupers who have come into being, are sure to be killed by KAL.

ਜਿਤੇਕ ਲੋਕ ਪਾਲਯੰ ॥ ਨਿਧਾਨ ਕਾਲ ਦਾਲਯੰ ॥

All the Lokpals, who have come into being, will ultimately be mashed by KAL.

ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਪਾਣ ਜੇ ਜਪੈ ॥ ਅਨੰਤ ਥਾਟ ਤੇ ਥਪੈ ॥

Those who meditate on the Supreme KAL, the wielder of the sword, they firmly adopt innumerable measures for protection.

ਜਿਤੇਕ ਕਾਲ ਧਯਾਇ ਹੈ ॥ ਜਗਤ ਜੀਤ ਜਾਇ ਹੈ ॥

Those who remember KAL, they conquer the world and depart.

ਜੈ ਤੇਗੰ 

ਜੈ ਤੇਗੰ

ਜੈ ਤੇਗੰ

There has to be a prescribed method for respect.

Applying blood-tilak, dhoof, other fragrances and cleaning the shastars has been a method of respect since many ages.

There is always a prescribed method for paying respect.

As for oue elders we are supposed to obey their orders.

Questioning, why do u have to obey them doesn't make any sense.

Shastar tilak has been going on since many ages and will continue to happen even if we don't exist.

Kintu-Parantu is not good at all, it might be good for wordly education but not for religious education.

[sikhiseeker]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Thanks for the picture - I will review it and check it against some things.

Sikhiseeker Jio, there is no mention of opposing respect and Namaskar of Shastars at all. This is an established sign of respect to do Namaskar of Shastar per Dasam Patshah's Bani. I am not disputing that, the question at hand is anointing Shastar with blood.

ਜਿਤੇ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਨਾਮੰ ॥ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਤਾਮੰ ॥

Jite Sasatra Naaman ॥ Namasakaar Taaman ॥

I salute all the weapons of various names

ਜਿਤੇ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਭੇਯੰ ॥ ਨਮਸਕਾਰ ਤੇਯੰ ॥੯੧॥

Jite Asatra Bheyaan ॥ Namasakaar Teyaan ॥91॥

I salute all kinds of armour.91.

Sorry for side tracking the thread with this new element of Mata Sahib Kaur's origins - it does seem to be somewhat (at least for now) a side topic from the main issue.

WJKK WJKF

no need to apologise, it's all interesting stuff.

My reply is based on the quote "Kaal Tuhi, Kali Tuhi."

The reason why I bring the namashakar point up is in response to "why put a blood Tilakh on a shastar" it's the same as why namashakar a physical object like a shastar if it is simply a sword or gun with no other meaning. The same can be said as when the new appointed guru would be anointed on the forehead with a Tilakh by dhan dhan baba Buddha ji, why? What was the significance of the tilak on the new guru? Was that too not just mere ritual then?

Again, what's your view on the stirring of the Amrit with a khanda and using a Kirpan to issue bhog? Why?

To me, this is evidence along side the namashakar of shastar, that a shastar is not simply a physical object, There is a huge spiritual presence of the ultimate warrior created by akal purakh within that metal, hence why a Khalsa should be shastar dhari. When we see our guru we offer petha, what else would a soldier of akal purakh offer a shastar other than blood? A cream cake lol!

The point I'm trying to put across is that sikhi has a spiritual aspect too. Not just facts based on the sciences of humanity on this world. It holds a universal truth.

The origins of mata sahib kaur to me are irrelevant. It doesn't change anything. The important point is the amrit.

The fact of the matter is that if a warrior chooses to anoint their shastar with blood via jhatka out of respect just like the namashakar to the same physical object, so be it. The same for the sikh who chooses not to anoint the shastar, that is their choice within their thought process with their Kirpan. However, a day can arise, when the shastar will have to be anointed, if ever a war was to be fought again, we will inevitably have to hold our shastar in our hands and shed blood of another. Hopefully we will all know how to use them if ever it was to happen. I'm sure you will agree, many kirpans look beautiful in their scabbards adorning the gursikh, but how many gursikh know at what angle or speed and strength would you need to swing your beautiful Kirpan to decapitate? Or would we all just swing it like a baseball bat lol?

Look forward to your reply brother/sister?

[ms514]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Bhai Delhitakht Sahib, many rituals that had been going on from the older ages (application of Manu Simritis - caste system and mistreatment of women, sati, devi/devta pooja/polytheism, adherence to Vedas and the inscribed rituals) were condemned by Guru Sahib and Gurbani is evidence of this. If I am doing Japji Sahib paath everyday that says that Daya is the root of all religion and someone is telling me that I have to slaughter animals (or find some sort of source of blood) to anoint Shastars, I think it is somewhat logical to have a conflict that is apparent. That Guru Hargobind Sahib would tell the to-be Guru Har Rai Sahib to mind his chola because he is damaging plants carelessly (in a supreme display of Daya towards all living things) and in the same vein, claim that we are to kill and use blood to do Shastar Pooja - you DO see the issue right?

I again reference our own history (Suraj Parkash Granth by Kavi Santokh Singh Ji, Rehatname/Tankhanama Bhai Nand Lal, etc. - all contain Q&A with Guru Sahib) that documents that on many, many occasions, Sikhs would ask Guru Sahib questions and Guru Sahib would answer. In this spirit, I searched Chandi Charitrar and Chandi Di Vaar and was unable to find a reference for Sri Dust Daman to have a communication with Chandi/Durga - nothing came to light (only reference was in Chandi Charitar that stated that Vishnu sent help, but no mention of the thousands of lions that are stated in the picture of the inscription). The inscription that is in the the picture references the Sarbloh Granth Sahib - anyone know whereabouts I could search for the relevant text?

Look, I am trying here, but all I keep getting is that it is Puratan Maryada and don't question it - Sikhi was borne out of questioning and understanding. This is not Tark-Budhi, to mindlessly dismiss everything, that I am trying to apply. If you tell me that my mother (Mata Sahib Kaur) is an incarnation of Durga - I want to know about that as much as I would want to know what village/city my worldly mother comes from and any resources to document such, right?

You will agree that none of the references provided to this time have mentioned blood anointing as a means to do Shastar Pooja right? If not, maybe I missed it - please point it out.

The respect is given to Shastars because they are the givers or life and death. Hence the supreme accordance of respect. But doing something without any evidence to support it is not in line with Sikhi (see Daya references in first paragraph) - everything should have a reason, and I am trying to get to those reasons. Shaheed Soormae from the 1984 and post movement, mostly, were not adherents to Jhatka and were vegetarians. I do not ever recall Sant Jarnail Singh, Baba Gurbachan Singh Manochal or other great Sikhs speaking of blood tilak to Shastars. Perhaps you would say that it is because their Shastars saw blood due to their seva, but not one seems to have spoken on this.

Tilak of Guru Sahib is documented in Gurbani and the Amrit Sanchar ceremony is not in question - its deep spiritual context and significance is not in question here, nor was it ever. Amrit Sanchar has been a ceremony documented by Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Sahib from the time of Guru Nanak Sahib and if Dasam Patshah chose to change it to Khandae Battae Di Pahul, there is no issue.

You can even note that I have not said that it is right or wrong in any post so far. I asked for reasons/references and and doing my own research as much as possible.

[N30S1NGH]

Just quickly, according to my understanding sikhi have all aspects of Vahiguroo- bhagti, shabad surat yog, gyan and shaki aspects of Vahiguroo blended beautifully and have spiritual historical traditions based on that. So whatever gurbani or gurmat topic is being discussed we need to find out which context or aspect of vahiguru guru maharaj is talking about or alluding to for eg- most if not all of sri dasam granth and sri sarbloh granth talks about aad shakti aspect of Vahiguru.

The issue here looks like- most try to understand aad shakti aspect listed in sri dasam granth with aspect of bhagti/satva. Thats where you would run into the problems. First we need to beleif that akaal purkh has limitless aspects that -bhagti, shabad surat yog, gyan and aad shakti are all akaal purkh aspects in sargun form and then for understanding purposes traditions like shastar puja/chandi -sacrifice can be proper contexualized and understood.

For example there are two metaphysical interpertations within gurbani how creation came - one in sri guru granth sahib ji/jaap sahib talks about creation came from shabad (oan/ongkar) and other listed in sri dasam granth sahib - creation came from khanda- aad shakti. Both are correct as both are aspects of Vahiguru. Sikhi isn't black and white.

ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸਾਜ ਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
खंडा प्रिथमै साज कै जिन सभ सैसारु उपाइआ ॥
At first the Lord created the double-edged sword and then He created the whole world.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਦਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇ ਬਣਾਇਆ ॥
ब्रहमा बिसनु महेस साजि कुदरति दा खेलु रचाइ बणाइआ ॥
He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and then created the play of Nature.

Regarding shastar pooja with blood tilak, staunchly off course from bhagti aspect this may throw people off but if one sees -shastar pooja with blood tilak from aad shakti aspect of Vahiguroo Mahakaal- death.. expression of that (sacarfice of goat) it makes perfect sense as mahakaal aspect is also sargun aspect of akaal purkh.

To understand sikh theology, one needs to see things from Absolute(Nirgun Gyan) point of view because from that point everything unfolds -all the aspects and also one from that point of view one is always grounded in absolute point of view (Nirgun advait gyan) so even engaging in different sargun aspects of akaal purkh- one does not loose absolute reality does not get fixated on sargun aspects- As there is puratan bola- Gursikhi- Mukh bhagti (in this context applies to all aspects) hirde - gyan.

[savinderpalsingh]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Bhai Delhitakht Sahib, many rituals that had been going on from the older ages (application of Manu Simritis - caste system and mistreatment of women, sati, devi/devta pooja/polytheism, adherence to Vedas and the inscribed rituals) were condemned by Guru Sahib and Gurbani is evidence of this. If I am doing Japji Sahib paath everyday that says that Daya is the root of all religion and someone is telling me that I have to slaughter animals (or find some sort of source of blood) to anoint Shastars, I think it is somewhat logical to have a conflict that is apparent. That Guru Hargobind Sahib would tell the to-be Guru Har Rai Sahib to mind his chola because he is damaging plants carelessly (in a supreme display of Daya towards all living things) and in the same vein, claim that we are to kill and use blood to do Shastar Pooja - you DO see the issue right?

I again reference our own history (Suraj Parkash Granth by Kavi Santokh Singh Ji, Rehatname/Tankhanama Bhai Nand Lal, etc. - all contain Q&A with Guru Sahib) that documents that on many, many occasions, Sikhs would ask Guru Sahib questions and Guru Sahib would answer. In this spirit, I searched Chandi Charitrar and Chandi Di Vaar and was unable to find a reference for Sri Dust Daman to have a communication with Chandi/Durga - nothing came to light (only reference was in Chandi Charitar that stated that Vishnu sent help, but no mention of the thousands of lions that are stated in the picture of the inscription). The inscription that is in the the picture references the Sarbloh Granth Sahib - anyone know whereabouts I could search for the relevant text?

Look, I am trying here, but all I keep getting is that it is Puratan Maryada and don't question it - Sikhi was borne out of questioning and understanding. This is not Tark-Budhi, to mindlessly dismiss everything, that I am trying to apply. If you tell me that my mother (Mata Sahib Kaur) is an incarnation of Durga - I want to know about that as much as I would want to know what village/city my worldly mother comes from and any resources to document such, right?

You will agree that none of the references provided to this time have mentioned blood anointing as a means to do Shastar Pooja right? If not, maybe I missed it - please point it out.

The respect is given to Shastars because they are the givers or life and death. Hence the supreme accordance of respect. But doing something without any evidence to support it is not in line with Sikhi (see Daya references in first paragraph) - everything should have a reason, and I am trying to get to those reasons. Shaheed Soormae from the 1984 and post movement, mostly, were not adherents to Jhatka and were vegetarians. I do not ever recall Sant Jarnail Singh, Baba Gurbachan Singh Manochal or other great Sikhs speaking of blood tilak to Shastars. Perhaps you would say that it is because their Shastars saw blood due to their seva, but not one seems to have spoken on this.

Tilak of Guru Sahib is documented in Gurbani and the Amrit Sanchar ceremony is not in question - its deep spiritual context and significance is not in question here, nor was it ever. Amrit Sanchar has been a ceremony documented by Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Sahib from the time of Guru Nanak Sahib and if Dasam Patshah chose to change it to Khandae Battae Di Pahul, there is no issue.

You can even note that I have not said that it is right or wrong in any post so far. I asked for reasons/references and and doing my own research as much as possible.

read this

explaination

http://www.amritworld.com/pbi/commentary/hazooree_maryada/tilak_bakre_de_bare.pdf

[sikhiseeker]

Just quickly, according to my understanding sikhi have all aspects of Vahiguroo- bhagti, shabad surat yog, gyan and shaki aspects of Vahiguroo blended beautifully and have spiritual historical traditions based on that. So whatever gurbani or gurmat topic is being discussed we need to find out which context or aspect of vahiguru guru maharaj is talking about or alluding to for eg- most if not all of sri dasam granth and sri sarbloh granth talks about aad shakti aspect of Vahiguru.

The issue here looks like- most try to understand aad shakti aspect listed in sri dasam granth with aspect of bhagti/satva. Thats where you would run into the problems. First we need to beleif that akaal purkh has limitless aspects that -bhagti, shabad surat yog, gyan and aad shakti are all akaal purkh aspects in sargun form and then for understanding purposes traditions like shastar puja/chandi -sacrifice can be proper contexualized and understood.

For example there are two metaphysical interpertations within gurbani how creation came - one in sri guru granth sahib ji/jaap sahib talks about creation came from shabad (oan/ongkar) and other listed in sri dasam granth sahib - creation came from khanda- aad shakti. Both are correct as both are aspects of Vahiguru. Sikhi isn't black and white.

ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸਾਜ ਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥

खंडा प्रिथमै साज कै जिन सभ सैसारु उपाइआ ॥

At first the Lord created the double-edged sword and then He created the whole world.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਦਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇ ਬਣਾਇਆ ॥

ब्रहमा बिसनु महेस साजि कुदरति दा खेलु रचाइ बणाइआ ॥

He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and then created the play of Nature.

Regarding shastar pooja with blood tilak, staunchly off course from bhagti aspect this may throw people off but if one sees -shastar pooja with blood tilak from aad shakti aspect of Vahiguroo Mahakaal- death.. expression of that (sacarfice of goat) it makes perfect sense as mahakaal aspect is also sargun aspect of akaal purkh.

To understand sikh theology, one needs to see things from Absolute(Nirgun Gyan) point of view because from that point everything unfolds -all the aspects and also one from that point of view one is always grounded in absolute point of view (Nirgun advait gyan) so even engaging in different sargun aspects of akaal purkh- one does not loose absolute reality does not get fixated on sargun aspects- As there is puratan bola- Gursikhi- Mukh bhagti (in this context applies to all aspects) hirde - gyan.

WJKK WJKF

Great post veer, many Sikhs forget the ideology of the Sargun and nirgun roop of waheguru, hence why this kinda semitical idea of death has crept in and the basis of any jhatka/meat/tilak debate is an animal had to be jhatkaad and killed, but failing to realise that there is no death, just a departure of two things, the mind from the body.

Many Sikhs like to look at sikhi through a western scientific set of eyes so to speak, forgetting about the vast spiritual aspect of sikhi what science and reason does not explain as Guru Granth Sahib Ji tells us in this shabad: please note how even stones are carried across by swami and how guru Nanak is "balihar" to swami.

[ms514]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

I am going to retire from this thread. I get the feeling that it will go on for some time and perhaps my own experienceand development will guide me to the final answer. Further contribution on my end...may not be of benefit to relatively civil environment expected on this forum.

Thanks all. I have read all the references provided and do thank your time and effort for the contribution.

[SSD]

No worship of Shastar should be allowed, Sant Jarnail Singh respected Shastar, but never did some Puja, Guru Sahib never worshiped Shastar in the same way, we don't worship Kesh.