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JRoudh
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The thread started off quite well and being informative for misinformed people like me.

I found it quite educating but sadly it has swayed into the typical sikh sangat slating posts.

I lost complete interest after about page 5 or so..... but anyway.. I noticed some comments and facts getting thrown about from post to post.

From the few bhatras I have come across and from what i know-

1)Yes, they came very early and Southampton and other ports were the 1st places, even though some poster said that Southamton is 'no bhatra are' ?

But regardless of where the next generations moved, back then it was port of entry and 1st stop for the early comers.

2) The ones I have come across don't use surnames but use SIngh and Kaur.

3) Yes, most of the one's I knew were fairly dark skinned, so there must be some geographical reason for this ?

4) The women don't seem to work as mentioned and get married very young at about 16-18 in most cases.

5)Oh yes, the misconception of bacon and eggs at the gurdwara.....Yes, I can verify that in Manchester back in the 90's this was happening for definite.

Why ??.... I haven't got a clue,... whether it was just some small community or what... but the messages that came out and spread towards mid and south england were that bhatras serve english breakfasts of bacons and eggs without the baked beans !!

These are just a few facts that I have become aware of as a common man and they are not my personal views..... and there is absolutely no intention of deliberate offence.

SSA, That was the aim of my thread to bring more awareness correct any misunderstandings that might have existed.

Alot of the Bhatras that came to the UK initially were from certain clans. Hence these may have been the slightly darker ones depending on their origins. Like other communities Most Bhats live in India. The Bhats in India tend to be a lot lighter skinned. The Number of Bhats in the UK is probably around 150.000 to 200.000 and mostly concentrated in London this is because London also contains of of the UK's biggest seaports/Docks near the thames.

Elsewhere they are mainly in Glasgow, Cardiff, Bristol, Sothampton, Nottingham, Manchester ect

Bhats being known for being great explorers can actually be found all over the world. In Hong Kong, Singerpore, China, america all of Europe ect. This is due to Bhatras fondness for traveling to new countries and exploring.

I was actually very shocked when I started uni and started to mix with Sikhs from various other backgrounnds. This was due to our comunity who always keep the name Singh as this is a sign of our allegiance the faith and our Guru. We feel so proud to have the honor of having this great name betwoed upon us. Before this I thought all Sikhs kept the name Singh also, but I was shocked to lean that most Sikhs were more into their caste/family names.

This is one of the reasons that Bhatras do not stand out as much as other communities due to not using any unique family names to distinguish us from other communities. For instance the Ramghrias can be distinguished due to their distinctive family names such as Verdi, Bhogal and Bansal. We have a sence of pride and honour of the name given to us by our Gurus od Singh /Kaur that we would never change this and feel it is big sin/disrespect to have a family name above the name given to us by our Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Hence no one till this day keep their family names. While other communities revel in their family names by having them on football kits and t.shirts to show their pride in their caste.

Bhats in general tend to be more agressive and strict in our beliefs. We view other Sikhs as being slightly soft and white washed with them more likley to be over modernised. This is due to our community being made up of historialy very religious clans from the Punjab. This has instilled in us a very orthodox approach to our religion that comes down from the generations above us. We are probably the most strict when it comes to women also. It does not mean we do not give them any freedom. But Bhat women are brought up knowing never to disrespect our religion.

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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Sigh...

ਹਮਰੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਪਾਤਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਹਮ ਵੇਚਿਓ ਸਿਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ॥

Hamaree Jaath Paath Gur Sathigur Ham Vaechiou Sir Gur Kae ||

The Guru, the True Guru, is my social status and honor; I have sold my head to the Guru. (731).

Great, Bhatras are a group who became Sikhs. Why is this post 8 pages long? I don't understand this thread at all. If the pride was based in Sikhi, why is this post caste based? When Sikhs do Sangat of each other, they care for Naam/Baani/Seva, not caste, race, gender.

This post seems to be so strange - declaring pride that Bhatras are great Sikhs, while highlighting them as a separate caste group in Sikhi, which is directly against Sikhi. Get over the caste pride and be proud to be a Sikh and STOP seeing yourselves as Sikh "from this group". Same goes with Jathebandian.

Chhittar Paain Vale Koi Thaudi Jaat/Jathebandi Nahi Puchdae. Sikh Bano, Sikh Kahaao, Simran Karo, Bani Parh Ke Jeevan Vich Amal Karo, Seva Karo.

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Reply to what, brother ?

I think this thread has had it's day and I'm glad the admins have locked the new one started.

But....if you're referring to the description you gave about your own family history, and the way your grandmother and other females, performed wonderfully after so much hardship than of course I understand and appreciate that. But where I feel you are wrong, is the way in which you prescribe your own family's experience to everyone else.

In normal circumstances, no limits should be placed on a Sikh....and a 'Sikh' has no gender. A Sikh can be a male or a female. Both as 'Sikhs' and 'Punjabis' our females have always worked out in the fields, always been warriors out in the battlefield. THAT, is our tradition. So you have to understand that as 'Sikhs' and 'Punjabis' the western model of the housewife at home whilst husband earns a living is totally alien to our history and psyche. But things have got a little topsy turvy...upside down in that we now have Sikhs that believe Sikh females should not be out earning a living and term those that do as 'western' influenced. This is madness. :stupidme:

But the thing is that our background does play such an important part in shaping our psyche. For the Jatt Sikhs, the calvinist thinking that hard work is a route to salvation is so deeply held it will take another couple of centuries to break. For example, there are so many aunties of mine that live in £2 million houses in Norwood Green and Osterley etc, i.e hardly short of money, and yet they continue to work up to 60 hours per week as cleaners in local hospitals and schools. That calvinist hard work as a route to salvation ethic is just so deeply inbedded in the Jatt Sikh's character. Lets take my example for a moment. Seriously, as I haven't got funding for my research and having to pay my way through my doctorate, I have to earn a living whilst studying. In all honesty, with my qualifications I could relatively easily get a job so much easier and paying so much more than what I'm earning now. But there's just something within me, something spiritual, that requires me to fulfill hard physical, manual work in order to feel spiritually connected. Its a Jatt thing for sure but I'd like to feel it was a Sikh thing because we jatt sikhs have always referred to it as the Sikh work ethic. Evidentally though, sadly, there are many Sikh groups that do not possess it.

WJKK WJKF

Veer ji, I find your post quite patronising at the least. You declare "THAT is our tradition" as an attempt to segregate yourself within the division of your jatt caste, as it usually happens, yet after all your education, you fail to understand that you being as you say, a "jatt sikh" is contradictory to the sikh rehat maryada? Yet you post statements like "There is nothing sikh....nothing Khalsa....about a community where something like zero percent of females have a dastar"? Lol alil bit of an assumption there veer ji. Just turn on britasia and see the stereo types of your castes females and males, that is not great either veer.

Every caste has its pros and cons, however the Khalsa is perfect brother. The term "jatt sikh" can never be coined together as it is Mannmat not gurmat.

You have pride in calling yourself a "jatt sikh", do you really think Guru Nanak Dev ji would call himself a "Brahmin sikh" or Shaheed baba Jeevan Singh a "mazhabi sikh" or Shaheed Bhai Taru Singh a "Jatt sikh"? I don't think so, so what gives you the right to bring your pride for your ancestors and ancestral ways within the nirmal panth of Shiri Guru Nanak Dev ji mahraj?

If your jatt caste have so much love and pride for your caste, way of life and ancestors, why did you sell your land and move from panjab? Why not continue working the field and be a pujari of your past ancestors. If you cannot renounce your caste, why accept the gurus Amrit which when taken tells you literally, your previous caste/clan/ancestry is no more, you are now Khalsa!

You assume your beloved caste only knows hard work, yet you have failed to recognise the fundamental pillars of Guru Nanaks message which all Sikhs around India (not just panjab) and the world should follow which are kirat karo, vaand chako and Naam japo. You see, sikhi teaches the hard work ethic which builds the psyche of its sikh, not the Sikhs previous caste.

Too some up brother, I'm sure you have heard that it was confirmed by the Vatican that Guru Nanak Dev ji vistited and did parchar in Italy and to the pope, his message being that the blood of man runs the same. What a pity that this message has fallen on death ears on so many Panjabis who wish to call themselves sikh. When in an Akhand path, do you put your fingers within your ears when our guru sings the bhat de swaiye?

After all brother, there is nothing sikh.....Khalsa.....to one whom claims to be a Jatt Sikh, Bhat Sikh, Mazhbhi Sikh or whatever else.

Khalsa Meri Jaan ki Jaan. There is no caste in sikhi. Only equality of the sikh and the non sikh alike. One chain, one body, one motion, one maryada, one thought. No we, no I only US. This is the way we will win all the issues our Kaum is facing today, united not segregated.

WJKK WJKF

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WJKK WJKF

If any brother or sister wishes to discuss the origins and history of the composers of the bhata de swaiyye without bringing any caste supremacy issues within the discussion or jay status into it lol, please pm me. Interestingly, the word waheguru is written once within our Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji, within the swaiyye of the bhats.

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The Number of Bhats in the UK is probably around 150.000 to 200.000

You mentioned earlier in this thread Roudh, how many Bhatras are mving into traditional Sikh towns and cities. That really is a great thing because it brings all of us Sikhs together and hopefully removes the long standing isolation. Together, we can all learn so much from each other and slowly but surely drop our respective bad habits and find some common ground. Right now, being isolated away from the other Sikhs, it is apparant that you have a very distorted view about your numbers. Officially, the otal number of Sikhs in the UK is 410,000. Of that number, the Bhatras a very small minority.....I would guess between 5 and 10%. Even at the highest percentage, there would be at most 40,000 bhatras in the UK.

If your jatt caste have so much love and pride for your caste, way of life and ancestors, why did you sell your land and move from panjab?

The only pride I have is that of being a Sikh. If you imagine I've written anywhere that I'm proud of being a 'Jatt' than you are mistaken Sikhseeker.

I think you will have to search far and wide before you find a jatt Sikh in the UK that has actually sold his or land in Punjab. Not only is it one of the most fertile agricultural lands on earth it is also some of the most expensive (1 acre in Punjab costs the same as between 10 and 20 acres in the UK), with prices always rising. My children love sending there holidays on the farm there and I think it woud be so beautiful if all Skh children in the UK, regardless of their background (urban or rural), could enjoy the same. The lush green fiels, the fresh cclean air, the animals. It really is my dream that all our communities here get closer together as a tight knit family unit where kids from a bhatra background can also experience the Punjabi farm joy.

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Reply to what, brother ?

I think this thread has had it's day and I'm glad the admins have locked the new one started.

But....if you're referring to the description you gave about your own family history, and the way your grandmother and other females, performed wonderfully after so much hardship than of course I understand and appreciate that. But where I feel you are wrong, is the way in which you prescribe your own family's experience to everyone else.

In normal circumstances, no limits should be placed on a Sikh....and a 'Sikh' has no gender. A Sikh can be a male or a female. Both as 'Sikhs' and 'Punjabis' our females have always worked out in the fields, always been warriors out in the battlefield. THAT, is our tradition. So you have to understand that as 'Sikhs' and 'Punjabis' the western model of the housewife at home whilst husband earns a living is totally alien to our history and psyche. But things have got a little topsy turvy...upside down in that we now have Sikhs that believe Sikh females should not be out earning a living and term those that do as 'western' influenced. This is madness. :stupidme:

But the thing is that our background does play such an important part in shaping our psyche. For the Jatt Sikhs, the calvinist thinking that hard work is a route to salvation is so deeply held it will take another couple of centuries to break. For example, there are so many aunties of mine that live in £2 million houses in Norwood Green and Osterley etc, i.e hardly short of money, and yet they continue to work up to 60 hours per week as cleaners in local hospitals and schools. That calvinist hard work as a route to salvation ethic is just so deeply inbedded in the Jatt Sikh's character. Lets take my example for a moment. Seriously, as I haven't got funding for my research and having to pay my way through my doctorate, I have to earn a living whilst studying. In all honesty, with my qualifications I could relatively easily get a job so much easier and paying so much more than what I'm earning now. But there's just something within me, something spiritual, that requires me to fulfill hard physical, manual work in order to feel spiritually connected. Its a Jatt thing for sure but I'd like to feel it was a Sikh thing because we jatt sikhs have always referred to it as the Sikh work ethic. Evidentally though, sadly, there are many Sikh groups that do not possess it.

Do you think you will ever be able to get rid of your "jatt" thing and become a Sikh ? How many more generations will it take to get this British promoted caste system amongst Sikhs.

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You mentioned earlier in this thread Roudh, how many Bhatras are mving into traditional Sikh towns and cities. That really is a great thing because it brings all of us Sikhs together and hopefully removes the long standing isolation. Together, we can all learn so much from each other and slowly but surely drop our respective bad habits and find some common ground. Right now, being isolated away from the other Sikhs, it is apparant that you have a very distorted view about your numbers. Officially, the otal number of Sikhs in the UK is 410,000. Of that number, the Bhatras a very small minority.....I would guess between 5 and 10%. Even at the highest percentage, there would be at most 40,000 bhatras in the UK.

The only pride I have is that of being a Sikh. If you imagine I've written anywhere that I'm proud of being a 'Jatt' than you are mistaken Sikhseeker.

I think you will have to search far and wide before you find a jatt Sikh in the UK that has actually sold his or land in Punjab. Not only is it one of the most fertile agricultural lands on earth it is also some of the most expensive (1 acre in Punjab costs the same as between 10 and 20 acres in the UK), with prices always rising. My children love sending there holidays on the farm there and I think it woud be so beautiful if all Skh children in the UK, regardless of their background (urban or rural), could enjoy the same. The lush green fiels, the fresh cclean air, the animals. It really is my dream that all our communities here get closer together as a tight knit family unit where kids from a bhatra background can also experience the Punjabi farm joy.

WJKK WJKF

Akal purakhs wahegurus beautiful creation can be seen all over the world and beyond. I have personally come across quite a few people within your caste in which the older generations are now selling their land due to the younger generation not being bothered and also because they moved out of Punjab and reside in another country, where the economy is more stable, they are financially secure and their children/children have become to westernised to have the knowledge to work the field or even survive as to how your ancestors did. Veer ji, why don't you take your kids and family back to your rural village? I don't see many "jatt" migrating back to their rural villages in India to once again, continue farming however I do recognise the numbers immigrating to countries like Italy, Dubai, Uk, Canada and Malaysia etc?

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I have personally come across quite a few people within your caste in which the older generations are now selling their land due to the younger generation not being bothered and also because they moved out of Punjab and reside in another country,

Because it is arguably THE most expensive agricultural land in the world (i.e 1 acre in Punjab can buy you between 15 and 20 acres in the UK, between 50 and 100 acres in Canada etc) the majority of agricultural landowners in Punjab are 'millionaiires on paper'. As humans, we all sometimes have reasons for an injection of capital, be it a business venture or, as you mentioned, offspring wishing for money to buy a house etc, and so selling land in Punjab is an option that is always there. Given the diaspora, it is always a sellers market regardless of the economy, where, once someone finds out you may be interested in selling, buying arrive with suitcases full of money ready to outbid each other. The Canadian and Italian diaspora especially big in this regard.

why don't you take your kids and family back to your rural village?

I do. We all do. My children and we go back twice a year. In fact, now that we're in November, this is the peak time when villages in Punjab are jam packed with little cokneys, brummies, californians, vancouverites and Italians. Sikh children all over the globe just love it on the farms there. They detest the dirt, filth, smell etc of the towns and cities but absolutely adore the clean life on the farms.

If you're referring to actual farming, like you are, do you also write letters to the UK's biggest landlords and ask them why they and their kids are not farming their lands themselves ?

There is, my friend, a big difference between landowners and farm-workers. All over earth, and Punjab is no different, the land owners are 'overseers' of farming. They oversee the work and my children are quickly learning all there is to learn in this regard thank you very much.

I don't see many "jatt" migrating back to their rural villages in India to once again, continue farming however I do recognise the numbers immigrating to countries like Italy, Dubai, Uk, Canada and Malaysia etc?

Well thats very true and I'm glad you've mentioned it. You see, of the world-wide Sikh diaspora, we in the UK are the only ones where farming has not played a significant part in the national Sikhs. In the USA for example, Sikhs are the nations single largest producers of fruit and nuts. In Canada, they own and farm wheat farms so big you need a light plane to reach the other end. Dairy farming in Italy. Tea plantations in Malaysia etc.

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