Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
JSingh01

Casteism Eating Up Sikhism+ Matrimonial Issues

Recommended Posts

Dear Fellow Members,

I want to discuss the growing matter of casteism in Sikhism, As far as I am aware when our Guru ji created/started panth khalsa. He abolished all the evil roots of casteism in Sikh culture and he created a guideline that a sikh should be identified and known as a sikh . And there should be no place of caste system in SIkh culture.

But look at us today, we are so lost in casteism itself that we are known as Jat sikhs or Khatri sikhs or ramgharia and so on (No offense to anyone)

Even though we have dedicated gurudwaras to the different community here. I dont mean to harm anyone emotions here. Please pardon me if I have. But what do you all think as a sikh. Is it correct to give uprise to casteism itself in our culture which guru ji abolished. Please give me your views.

And Another thing is that this issue is being promoted in regards to the marriages as well.

I am a Sikh for all I know, But where ever I or my parents speak about the matrimony.

The first question which is being asked is what caste do you belong to. I mean how does it matters ?

If I am a jat or khatri or ramgharia, we all are sikhs and thats what should be imp. But for about 80% it matters a lot. I dont know what difference does it makes but Jatts only wanna marry in their same caste and so as ramgharias. How does it matters that if a person is a wierdo and do all sort of crazy stuff like drugs and do all kind of thngs but while marrying their daughter to him wont be an issue, only bcoz he is of their same caste.

And on the other hand there is a guy like me who is educated, decent, religious person but nope, they wont marry their daughter with him only bcoz I do not belong to their caste. I have had enough of this caste system.

And then there is another issue which is only because I wear a turban and don't trim my beard, most of the girls wont go for a guy like me bcoz of this reason.

Its such a shamefull thing to say that people who are taking care of our Gurudwara have started registering for matrimonial alliance and they have put an option where a girl has to opt that does she needs a turbaned sikh or a clean shaven. If the gurudwara will support these actions then who is gonna stand with the gursikhs ?

I mean this is the limits where these people can go. What kind of Sikh is a Clean shaven, A clean shaven person is not a sikh. He has lost the main identity of being a sikh.

I have seen a lot of people who are going thru these difficulties and because of these things boys are cutting down there kesh and going out of sikhi.

Please let me know your views on this. And again please if I have hurted any ones emotions, knowingly or unknowingly. Please accept my apologies.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Admin Veer ji can we just point Veer ji here to all the previous threads ad nauseum on this topic rather than going through the pointless rigmarole of saying the same things ?

iT'S SIMPLE , AS A SIKH:

To believe in Jaat Paat- is to call Guru Gobind SIngh's Amrit Water - if you are the Guru's sikh YOU WILL NEVER DO THAT

To demand a dowry- Guru Gobind SIngh ji said YOU ARE NOT MY SIKH

To celebrate with meat and Sharab and dancing - You will be going against GURMATTA

look closely before you leap to becoming down, why not thank your Guru ji who has kept you away from adharmi lok instead of looking on it as some sad thing

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

admin please close this topic, it will cause further issue which wont solve anything in pointless thing.

singh if you have time , kindly do simran or sewa or nitnem . no point in wasting time .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guptsinghh

Savinderpal veerji why be scared. It will cause further issues which are manmatt. Are you happy to allow this without even speaking???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bhai ji most of the sevadars, raagis, pathis, granthis are from what society considers "low caste" but due to WAHEGURU's grace n change in Karma they are well respected.

Most Bhein te Ma di gallan are spoken for corrupt people in power or those who consider themselves as high caste.

So our actions play a big role rather than caste in getting recognition in society.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our gurus didn't remove caste system. They couldn't remove it as simple as that. They spoke against it and they wrote against it and we are always thankful for that. But when it came to the point of Gurgaddi, they still gave it to Khatris and kept it all within the family. Why? Can someone comment? Our gurus could not remove caste system and we are examples of that.

Why was not Mazhabi Sikhs of the time valued who kept company of all the Guru sahibs and gave blood for Guru Ji, were given their due share and an 8 year old became our Guru Sahib (Guru Harkishan Sahib). Guru Har Rai, Guru Harkishan, Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib were all part of same family. I am not questioning Guru's choice but what did us Mazhabi Singhs get other than being called choora chamar in Sikhi ill today?

So our Guru sahibs gave equality in religion and there was no equality in society. And having no equality in society and equality in religion means nothing.

And I am Mazhabi Sikh btw.

When we talk about caste system what I humbly believe is it's about social strata of society. I don't know much about casteism in India except for what I've read and heard. For example, I met this one Rajput (I believe) guy long time ago who was from Gujerat (or Rajastan I forget) outside of India. He told me that all government jobs in the state of Gujerat are given to Rajputs. It's an unwritten rule. This is what I believe our Gurus were against.

IMHO Guruship was given to the most able from a spiritual standpoint. It's not some 'social activism' where you choose the least able all in the name of 'equality'. You are equal when you are given equal opportunity to succeed. However trying to artificially create an equal outcome is not equality anymore. Equal opportunity does not guarantee equal outcome. For example Hillary Clinton is running for POTUS and many claim she should be voted solely just because she's a woman in order to give women a chance to lead. But is she the ablest among all candidates out there? This is what I mean.

To the OP in regards to marriage, I believe this is something personal and not something you can force others to do. IMHO I believe that Jatts, Khatris, Shimba....are actually different tribes in ancient times who amalgamated and formed today's Punjabis. From what I've seen, people want to marry someone from the same mindset and culture. It's a tribal thing. FYI from what I've heard there was a time even Jatt Malwais and Majha's would not go to each other's Gurdwaras and marry from each other.

Anyway in this day and age the 'new' caste system is based on how big your bank account is. LOL! :p

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest MazhabiSingh

@Quantavius, how much capability has a 8 year old has that he is made Guru. It is a sad state when you don't find anybody more able than a 8 year old child. Why don't we admit that it was basically family tradition of making gurus like Nirankaris and other deras, was existing even at times of Gurus.

When other Gurus didn't give Guru Status to Guru Granth Sahib, why did Guru Gobind Singh did it? Was it because he didn't want to give us Mazhabis their share and now when time had come to offer Guruship, he made GGS as Guru which his elders gurus didn't do it? Didn't he go against wishes of Guru Arjun Dev Ji? We gave lots and lots of blood for Gurus to get discrimination in return and woefully sidelined today. What about Gurusahib giving Kalgi to Bhai Sangat Singh?. Doesn't giving Kalgi mean giving guruship ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When we talk about caste system what I humbly believe is it's about social strata of society. I don't know much about casteism in India except for what I've read and heard. For example, I met this one Rajput (I believe) guy long time ago who was from Gujerat (or Rajastan I forget) outside of India. He told me that all government jobs in the state of Gujerat are given to Rajputs. It's an unwritten rule. This is what I believe our Gurus were against.

IMHO Guruship was given to the most able from a spiritual standpoint. It's not some 'social activism' where you choose the least able all in the name of 'equality'. You are equal when you are given equal opportunity to succeed. However trying to artificially create an equal outcome is not equality anymore. Equal opportunity does not guarantee equal outcome. For example Hillary Clinton is running for POTUS and many claim she should be voted solely just because she's a woman in order to give women a chance to lead. But is she the ablest among all candidates out there? This is what I mean.

To the OP in regards to marriage, I believe this is something personal and not something you can force others to do. IMHO I believe that Jatts, Khatris, Shimba....are actually different tribes in ancient times who amalgamated and formed today's Punjabis. From what I've seen, people want to marry someone from the same mindset and culture. It's a tribal thing. FYI from what I've heard there was a time even Jatt Malwais and Majha's would not go to each other's Gurdwaras and marry from each other.

Anyway in this day and age the 'new' caste system is based on how big your bank account is. LOL! :p

Our Guru Sahibs were heavily against the Caste System. Once you drink Amrit, God becomes your caste, Guru Gobind Singh Ji becomes your father and Mata Sundri becomes your mother. There is no place for Caste System in Sikhism. There's nothing logical about it and anyone who does take pride or think it's alright for it to exist is simply trying to corrupt Sikhism. Almost all Rehets are universal on this that once you take Amrit, you're past self,name,caste,occupation is all razed.

Though that bank account analogy is spot on :yay:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest MazhabiSingh

SheikhYoBooty,

First you say Guru Sahibs weren't Khatri and they were sudras, and then you say Guru Sahib tore the janeu which is supposed to be for Khatris. Please makeup your mind first and tomorrow you would call Guru Sahib chamars etc. If they were not khatris, then why did they tear janeus? Guru sahibs were high caste Hindus.

Sudras don't wear janeus so why would they tear them.

And Rangretta Guru Ka Beta was good enough for Gurus to take his blood but not good enough good for making Gurus of Sikhism. Gurus still had to be khatris and from the same family or extended family. This was derawaad of today where 8 year old becomes a guru but not someone from lower caste. Nirankaris do the same, first father, then his son and his son and the lineage goes on of derawaad.

Same thing our gurus did. I am sorry if you don't like but can we observe any different.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought Sri Mata Sahib Devan becomes our Mata ji because she is the mother of Khalsa.

Why should it matter to you :( for you caste system>everything else.

Edit: yes Mata Sahib was called the Mother of the Khalsa. However in some cases Mata Sundri Ji was also called Mother as a mark of respect of her union to the 10th master.

Way to generalize...!

He just destroyed your arguments in one swoop. You'll still stay in denial and deny Gurbani and History as you're more concerned with being Punjabi than being a Sikh, but that's alright my fellow Hindu Sister. He hasn't generalized anything. Guru Nanak Dev Ji did reject the thread and as a result rejected the Caste System. As did every other Guru Sahib. The only person who sees Castes are people like you that use the shroud of equality to hide the false pride you have in your caste.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had no argument to start with! I ain't arguing with anyone. So I don't know who he is actually arguing with.

Strange how you responded to it then :)

You didn't even know that Sri Mata Sahiba Devan was the mother of Khalsa, so there you go.

yeah. I dont think you have any right to call anyone out considering you don't even bother to learn who certain Bani was written by, But hey I made a mistake and I was willling to accept it, was having a very interesting discussion with another USER about Mata Sundri so her name was on my fingertips. But oh well as usual you think everyone else is at fault and you're once again right. That's ok. Funny how you decide to miss out the fact she had KAUR in her name since that was also an extremely important part of her identity.

It's alright my Hindu Sister. You just stick to bathing in your Ganges. Who knows, maybe it might wash out the conflicting ideologies that are clearly dancing in your mind :swing:

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Quantavius, how much capability has a 8 year old has that he is made Guru. It is a sad state when you don't find anybody more able than a 8 year old child.

I wouldn't know. This is a spiritual/divine position and not physical like a CEO of a company. I'm assuming the requirements are very different. He may have been an 8 year old but he possessed divinity that the normal person did not have. IMHO our Gurus are not to be compared to the average person. IMHO our Gurus were divine and are simply not comparable to the average person, no matter how spirituality elevated that average person is (Baba, Sant...etc,etc).

The Guruship is not an elected position nor is it a material one. Only the the previous Guru could determine who would be the next Guru.

Why don't we admit that it was basically family tradition of making gurus like Nirankaris and other deras, was existing even at times of Gurus.

See above for answer. I believe Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Guru Guru Gobind Singh Ji were not from the same family.

When other Gurus didn't give Guru Status to Guru Granth Sahib, why did Guru Gobind Singh did it? Was it because he didn't want to give us Mazhabis their share and now when time had come to offer Guruship, he made GGS as Guru which his elders gurus didn't do it? Didn't he go against wishes of Guru Arjun Dev Ji? We gave lots and lots of blood for Gurus to get discrimination in return and woefully sidelined today. What about Gurusahib giving Kalgi to Bhai Sangat Singh?. Doesn't giving Kalgi mean giving guruship ?

If I'm not mistaken SGGS Ji was not complete until maybe the 6th of 7th Gurus time? I'm not sure. As for 'next in line', Mazbhis were definitely not 'next in line'. It was most likely the Jatts followed by others like the Shimbe...etc, etc. and then only the Mazhbis, if you want to think along those lines.

The Guruship is not a material position. It is not to be compared to a Manager at a company or even CEO of a Corporation. It is a spiritual position that only the previous Guru could determine who would be the next. Heck, even in the material world, you can't go to a company and tell them that you're 'next in line' for a Management position simply because you're a Mazhbi.

What was there to be gained by maintaining Guruship in one family? So that they can be wiped out later? That is simply not worth it. Are you aware of the sacrifices our Gurus made?

Also as to SGGS Ji Maharaj being made Guru, perhaps this could have been Guru Nanak Dev Ji's ultimate plan? In Sikhism we believe all our Gurus are of the same 'jot'.

The problem is that in your mind you are comparing Guruship to a material position in our everyday lives and you're overlooking the divinity of our Guru's. Secondly, you have a huge chip on your shoulder. As a Mazhbi, you're probably expecting some sort of affirmative action plan for Mazhbi's to obtain a position despite not being qualified for it. I'm sorry this is not how the real world works. Also, religion is a private organization and not a public entity. Either you choose to believe it or you don't. Nobody is forcing you to accept Sikhism. You are definitely treated equally. You are free to go and create your own religion and make yourself the leader. Nothing stopping you.

Bhai Buddha was a Jatt who served 4 Gurus yet you don't hear the Jatts complaining why was there no Jatt Guru. Ditto for all other castes. IMHO you have a huge chip on your shoulder hence your blind spot.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use