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Want To Cut Kesh After 10 Years As An Amritdari/keshdari - Please Advise


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You probably look better keeping your turban and beard than without unless you've been blessed with good looking parents. Have a good look at them before you cut it off.

The very fact you're comparing sikhi to western democracy makes me think you know very little of sikh ideology (social, political and religious).

Personally I wouldn't trust a man or marry one if he cut his hair suddenly without a valid or good enough reason. Too fickle and weak.

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You solicit others to reason on your proposed action, but you don't want to provide a reason for that proposed action.

Of course a forum where you've voluntarily and anonymously started a thread asking for input is not a theocratic police state that you reference.

So what is your reason? You don't need to solicit arguments for keeping kesh. Kesh won't walk away. However, you will have to act to NOT keep kesh. What is your reason for that action? In THAT reasoning likely lies your answer.

You do provide anti-kesh arguments. If your arguments are remotely intelligent as you suggest, put them up against your reasons, in your own mind or here.

Sangat Ji,

...

While I don’t wish to give my reasons, I want to solicit arguments for me keeping my kesh.

..

Regards,

Anon,

...

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Sangat Ji,

I became an amritdari/keshdari 10 years ago, but now want to cut my kesh, and become a sahajdari sikh.

I believe that all the Saheeds of Sikhi, were martyred for freedom, the freedom to be a Sikh, a Hindu or whatever. I don’t think anyone should be blackmailed into being forced to keep kesh, if one chooses to cut kesh – all the guilt tripping is wrong.

The Guru’s & Sikhs fought, died, lived for freedom. If one is motivated to become an amritdari then that person should have the freedom to pursue it. If 10 years later, as I am, wants to leave amrit, then why is it made so fundamentally difficult?

You can be a sahajdari and still jaap naam, do kirat, and donate 10% (which few amritdari’s do, I only did it one year).

And I don’t have to give my reasons for wanting to cut kesh to anyone, thank Waheguru I live in liberal democracy, not a theocratic-police state.

While I don’t wish to give my reasons, I want to solicit arguments for me keeping my kesh. Because in the big scheme of things, is it so wrong, to cut kesh, but still be a god fearing Sikh? When I die, if I don’t go to hell, or 84 lakh cycle, and by some miracle see the Guru’s & Saheeds, I will bow and say “I was weak and unworthy, I did what I could in my life, but I just can’t keep kesh out of fear, guilt, recrimination of fellow Sikhs. I choose to become an amritdari, and 10 years later I cut my kesh, I am a sinner, but whatever I am, I am still a Sikh, be it the most unworthy Sikh.”

Regards,

Anon,

Ps,

I am reasonably educated, intelligent person, and don’t believe cutting my hair will make me outcast, since I may take amrit again in the future. But if people say I am outcast, have commited a cardinal/treacherous sin – I almost feel like saying so be it! Yes I am a wretched manmukh, though all western political philosophy, science is derived by putting the bible and the Abrahamic Gods word aside, and using manmukhi to think of the answers to the fundamental questions of the human condition.

You are confusing a Patit for a Sahejdhari. Sahejdharis were historically non Sikhs who showed inclinations towards Sikhi and were on their way to becoming full Sikhs. What you are going to do will make you into a Patit and Kurahiti.

Everyone goes through moments of weaknesses. No one says being a Sikh is easy. It is the hardest religion of them all, but the spiritual rewards are also much much much more. Anyone can flow with the current, but a Sikh is one who goes against the current flow of this Kalyugi Dunya. You can choose this world which is temporary and Naashvant or you can chose your Guru who is the only one that can give you Mukti from this world. Why give up priceless diamonds for mere rocks? Maybe you might be thinking that you want to cut kesh and again keep kesh in 10 years, But have you seen ten years into the future? what happens if you die before that? will you want to leave this world as a Kurahiti and again go into Charassi Lakh Joonis?

You don't realize how rare this human life is. After a long time one gets to be born as a human. Guru Sahib repeatedly gives urgent calls to his Sikhs of how rare it is to be born as a human, and how important it is to utilize this precious gift for God realization. This Dunya for which you want to cut your Kesh will not help you when Jamdoots come for you. It is only going to be your Faith in Sikhi, the Rehit you kept, the Naam and Baani you did Jaap of that will help you in the end. Your sansaari mind can come up with all sorts of excuses and justifications for cutting your kesh, but Jamdoots will not listen to those Bahanaas one bit.

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Without providing a valid reason for wanting to cut your hair it's a bit nonsensical asking for a counter, at the end of the day it's your personal choice, the worst thing you can do is be something that you really don't believe in, my experience is this, I took Amrit when i was young because my whole family did so they expected me to follow in their path, they had taken Amrit a few years previously, I had very little knowledge of the responsibility it carried but i tried my best, i grew older, followed the path of Sikhi but found myself drifting away, i'm now in my 40's, i never cut my kesh, never ate meat or drank alcohol or had any other vices, i do however trim my beard so yes I broke the sacred bond I made with the Guru but after many conversations with my parents they have realised that they should not have made me and my sibling's take Amrit at such a young age without us understanding the responsibilities that come with it. I now find my self re-learning everything about Sikhi but this time I'm doing it because i want to and because my children want to and i actually find myself closer to Waheguru now than I ever was before, maybe one day if i'm ready i may take Amrit again.

As far as guilt tripping goes there is plenty of it about but Sikhism has taken a somewhat fascinating turn over the last few years where the younger generation are encouraged to learn and make up their own minds as opposed to the old fashioned "your going to disappoint everybody of you don't follow the path" lectures but, like i've already mentioned, without providing a valid argument your basically just asking people to counter a general argument.

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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Disclaimer: I am also a Western educated person with a thorough background in the sciences. While my particular interests lie in Biology, I am a pharmacist by profession, which means chemistry was an emphasis in my education.

Why did I tell you the above? Because if you think education in the Western system is somehow a means to dismiss the "backward" thoughts of religion, you are delusional and frankly must not have done a single day of Nitnem in your life.

Warning: The below is about to get brutal. I think it is deserved, as you are already leaning towards cutting your kesh after being Amritdhari and you need some good old fashion yelling.

Human condition is EXACTLY what Gurbani addresses. Science can make new inventions, it can made life "easier", but it has NOT resolved the affairs of the human condition. People are truly less happy now then they were before. Comforts do not equate to happiness. The world is diving further and further into a materialistic frenzy, desperately looking to satisfy their needs externally rather than internally, where self contentment is the true key to happiness. Guess what - GURBANI SAYS THIS.

What you fail to realize is that one of the stages of Simran is "Gurmukh Rom Rom Har Dhaivai" - you want to cut off the very machinery that will drive Naam Simran? Naam Simran that is the very core of Sikhi and the very tool that Guru Sahib gave to you to (eventually) do Simran with, you want to eliminate. You think the Gurus arbitrarily made hair sacred for a Sikh? Do even know that hair is something that was sacred to the Jews (read the Bibile - God's command as delivered through Moses), the Hindus (read what punishment was relegated to Brahmins for the highest crimes), Christians (Jesus of Nazereth - read about the Nazerenes) and many others? They weren't all stupid or irrational. Hair is a very important tool for spiritual progress, but you want to eliminate it and maintain a spiritual "patit" jeevan (oxymoron).

Basically, it sounds like you did not get into Sikhi for the right reasons or knew why you were getting into Sikhi. It is not about guilt tripping and what others did. We as a Panth have to understand that this is not a sustainable means of getting our youth involved into Sikhi. There is a spiritual reason for what the Gurus did - ALL OF IT. Your statement about setting aside religion for science to solve the human condition point to a severe deficit of understanding what Gurbani actually says. You REALLY need to read and understand Gurbani first. When you heard about those Shaheeds, did you ever wonder WHY they made all of those sacrifices? What was do precious about Sikhi to them that they were willing to die? Perhaps you should spend some time contemplating the WHY more than the actions themselves.

You can be a sehajdhari and do Naam Simran? Sure, anyone can do recitation of the Gurmantar - why even have Amrit at all? When Gurbani says that the very name of a Nirgura is bad, what do you think your status will be as a patit? Naam Kamai - actual earning of Naam that will count in the end to its full potential - can ONLY be done by an Amritdhari Gursikh. Naam Simran will impart some benefits to any who recite it, but its full accounting and kamai is for the Amritdhari Gursikh.

What Guru would accept your donation of 10% when you have retracted your head that you gave to the Guru? It's like saying to your parents that you are no longer their son/daughter, but will still pay rent for living there - yeah, slightly insulting.

You are breaking the covenant between you and the Guru and the only Darshan you will have is of Jamdoots, who will not be kind. But if I tell you more about that, you will blame me for guilt tripping you or scaring you back towards Sikhi.

Look, let me put it this way. By whatever means, you have entered into Sikhi. It does not sound like you have good Sangat at all. You owe it to yourself to get some good Sangat of learned Gursikhs and start to read and understand Gurbani. Ask your questions to them and they will respond. But truth be told, when one does Sangat of Gursikhs, questions disappear themselves. One does not get answers - one stops asking because the questions lose their importance. When you read Gurbani, UNDERSTAND its meanings. Try to feel its meanings. For a Sikh, mere reading is not enough - understanding and finally FOLLOWING Gurbani's teachings is key. You need to discover what Gurbani actually says, how it relates to the human condition and the solutions it offers. I doubt you are getting any Anand from (or doing) any Naam Simran 0 if you were, the peace and tranquility it delivers would be enough to never question your being an Amritdhari Sikh. How long have you been ignoring Nitnem, Rehat and other things? You can probably graph your own looseness in Rehat and Gursikhi with the rise of doubts and your current state.

What will be will be. Cut hair or not, it will not make a difference to Sikhi. Vaheguru created the Khalsa and Vaheguru will always have victory. This is about you. You need to sort it out, do a bit more delving into what Sikhi actually is before you make whatever decision you are about to make. You have, frankly, failed to make any positive progress alone or with whatever Sangat you have been associating. You really need some Gursikh sangat to address your spiritual needs and get any understanding of Gurbani that has escaped you for 10 years. This is for your own betterment, nobody else. Sikhi is not about doing favors for anyone - it is for you to awaken your true nature and essence and going beyond the materialistic presentation of the world.

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Guest anongram101

ms514 ji

But let’s just pretend that I had 1) Really done nitnem 2) Devolved into Sikh, via books & katha 3) Had done sangat of sikhs who you class as chardikala sikhs….. then the answer is still that in the eyes of informed Sikhs such as ms514 , and according to accepted Sikh Canon/Theology I would be a worthless patit.

Basically ms514, your reply was the one I was waiting for…

Regardless of the Jamdhoots, afterlife, 84 lakh cycle…right here and now, being a patit in the Sikh community is far too high a price to pay. Essentially there is no way to leave Amrit without being an outcast. I suppose I’ll take your suggestion about being a better Amritdari Sikh, since there is no alternative.

Thank you

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Guest anongram101

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

ms514 ji, I have some more points I want to put to you.

I do believe in Gurbani, and in all honesty believe in amrit, and in Khalsa Panth- but I wanted/ part of me still wants to opt out. I can assure you I have delved quite deeply in the meaning of Naam, and the spiritual stages a bhagat goes through. I have tested the saying/vajan of modern day Mahapurak Brahmgiani Sikhs. A modern day respected Mahapurak said that if a Sikh does 20 Japji Sahib, he will get what he desires. I tested this by attempting to do 20 Japji Sahibs a day, though at that time the most I managed was 14 in a day, my hearts desire was granted to me (despite the extreme unlikelyhood of the occurence under normal circumstances). The reason I took amrit was I read 'bandgi nama by raghbir singh bir'.

But over the last 10 years, what has influenced my thinking or approach to make the comparison between bhagati, and secular intellectual pursuits, particularly in the sciences, though not restricted to science are the following:

K. Anders Ericsson's work on 'expertise'
Mike csikszentmihalyi's work on 'flow states'
Carol Dweck's work on 'mindset'

Other Authors/Researchers work on 'Mastery'

& in general empiricism and deductive reasoning.

Due to this influence, I had started to imagine myself as a Sikh with cut hair. I suppose it was/still is a case of having my cake and eating it to. I'm not hurting anyone.

I would greatly appreciate any comments,

Kind Regards,

Anon

PS

Historically and right up until WW1, if troops tried to leave the battlefield, or refuse to follow orders, they were usually killed (troops shot for cowardice by british in WW1), even tortured to death (i.e. romans). Even in modern times there is usually prison time to serve (i.e. soliders awol in USA). So when Guru ji, let the 40 sikhs go, with only having to write a bedwaa, that was the most compassionate, lenient act in the history of warfare.

Today whereas, a Sikh who wants to leave amrit, is given the most severe penalty by modern day sikhs, short of violence i.e. being Patit outcaste. Thats severe. It's the absolute maximum penalty one can be given,

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