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sat sri akal to all ,

this is my first topic here, though i was silent reader of this forum for the past 2 yrs.

i have seen many muslims (pakistanis to be precise) saying things like sikhs killed many muslims, raped women and did a hell lot of bad things to the muslims during partition. They spread a lot of hate against us on social networking sites , blaming us for the partition violence . I know we did attack them , but was our retaliation that extreme?

most of the sikhs simply keep mum on this issue and don't reply them back.

i want to know our sangat's view on this.

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I know we did attack them , but was our retaliation that extreme?

Our retaliation was very extreme. 2 and half times more Muslims than Sikhs were killed during partition in Punjab. To put it another way, as terrible and gruesome our suffering in lives was during partition, and it really was mind-blowingly terrible, we would have to go through the same thing once more and then another half one again before we reach the number of Punjabi muslim dead. Thats pause for thought.

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sat sri akal to all ,

this is my first topic here, though i was silent reader of this forum for the past 2 yrs.

i have seen many muslims (pakistanis to be precise) saying things like sikhs killed many muslims, raped women and did a hell lot of bad things to the muslims during partition. They spread a lot of hate against us on social networking sites , blaming us for the partition violence . I know we did attack them , but was our retaliation that extreme?

most of the sikhs simply keep mum on this issue and don't reply them back.

i want to know our sangat's view on this.

Read this for a better understanding of this issue:

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/mla/

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Well basically inderpreet, they (muslims) started the violence, mainly in places like amritsar, gurdaspur, rawalpindi etc. The police for example, were majority sikh/muslim, more so muslim, so wen it came to mob violence, the muslims were very well equipped, as the muslims in panjab police would openly help muslim mobs. This all happened in 1946, btw, 1yr before partition. Muslim league (jinnah) and the scummy ahmediyas spread incredible anti-kuffar propaganda in yrs prior to partition. Sikhs started retaliating in killing muslims, from say feb/march 47'-aug/sept. Sikhs/hindus leavin w.panjab were moving east early as 46', n were tellin e.panjabi sikhs, of how muslims were genociding apnay, and also train full of dead/raped sikhs/hindus were comin to amritsar/ambala. So then it became very visual, of wat the sullehh had done to apnay. Then apnay in e.panjab, started making gangs, of armed bandits, whom started murdering muslim in their MASSES! When i mean masses, i mean masses. Not only were these killings of muslims revenge acts, but also we had to remove all muslims from e.panjab so that we were the majority % in each area. W.panjab was always majority muslim undisputedly, though lahore was kinda even in %. Amritsar, jalandar even were majority muslim, so to lose these places was unthinkable to us.

By the end of 47, we got 40% of panjab, 60% lost to pakistan. Also it took 1 whole yr for muslims to kill 300k sikhs, it took sikhs jus 5months or so to kill 500k muslim. Cud u imagine, wat would of happened, if we started at same time as they started kill our lot? My grandad and great grandad took part in these events, n i for 1, am very proud. We showed as a community, again, wen we r physically in adversity, wat response we can give the enemy. Rape, forced conversions, forces prostitution, mass killings, killings of own women to save honour, happened on both sides, even tho apnay try to deny this, n try to play the sympathy/victim card. Also has to be noted, jinnah thought the hindus wudnt fight back (he was right), and thought sikhs wudnt fight back, sayin we lost r warrior heritage. Afta killin 500k muslims, and startin the violence, jinnah complained to the UN of sikhs killin his ppl. Unbelievable!

Muslims could of campaigned peacefully for a seperate country, but they chose this disgustin way, n we showed em, that with sikhs, 'panga isnt changa'!

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What happened during partition was a tragedy. Since elderly people on both sides of the border who witnessed the mass slaughter are still alive, so this slaughter still seems fresh. Crimes were committed on both sides which resulted in a lot of suffering. It is not good to dwell in the past and open old wounds. Punjabis on both sides should move forward. The need of the hour is for the Sikh nation to have good and friendly relations with Pakistan whether the rulers of Delhi likes it or not.

Today when Sikh Yatris go to Pakistan, they are received warmly and treated with respect by Pakistanis. Many times when the relations between Delhi and Islamabad are not good due to some kind of border stand off, the Delhi rulers put pressure on their Chamcha Badal to make sure Sikhs also boycott Pakistan by not going on a pilgrimage to Pakistan. But each time Panthic Sikh leaders like Sardar Simranjit Singh Mann leads Jathas and many Jathas from the west also do Yatra to show Delhi rulers that the Sikh nation's relationship with the rulers of Pakistan is independent of Delhi. I wish SGPC was independent of Badal and GOI, so this organisation could have diplomatic relationship with nations around the world much like the Vatican.

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Today when Sikh Yatris go to Pakistan, they are received warmly and treated with respect by Pakistanis.

Well you know why don't you Johnny Paji? For the economic revenue that brings the Pakistani's from naive Sikhs.

Instead of wasting money on pilgrimages (as opposed by Gurbani and Guru Sahib) we should instead use the money wasted on these pilgrimages to Pakistan and Hindutva hotbeds like snow-covered Uttarakhand to first focus on bigger issues like attacking the alcohol, drugs, infanticide, biraderi, illiteracy, cancer, poverty and conversion problems afflicting east Punjab in Majha, Malwa and Doaba.

When Khalsa Raj is over Sri Nankana Sahib in the future ... khule darshan ohda vi ho sakde ne Bhai Sahib.

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Well you know why don't you? For the economic revenue that brings the Pakistani's from naive Sikhs.

Aye.

Taking care of the money supply or the supply of money, however you choose to express it.

Money is something we all can agree on.

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Well you know why don't you Johnny Paji? For the economic revenue that brings the Pakistani's from naive Sikhs.

Instead of wasting money on pilgrimages (as opposed by Gurbani and Guru Sahib) we should instead use the money wasted on these pilgrimages to Pakistan and Hindutva hotbeds like snow-covered Uttarakhand to first focus on bigger issues like attacking the alcohol, drugs, infanticide, biraderi, illiteracy, cancer, poverty and conversion problems afflicting east Punjab in Majha, Malwa and Doaba.

When Khalsa Raj is over Sri Nankana Sahib in the future ... khule darshan ohda vi ho sakde ne Bhai Sahib.

It is mutually beneficial for both Sikh nation and Pakistan to have friendly relations. For the Sikh we get to have darshan of our historical Gurdwaras associated with the Gurus, most of our heritage is actually located in Pakistan. One might say, that land is the cradle of the Sikh nation. So of course we need and should have good relations with Pakistan. You do not see any benefits to doing Yatra of our ithihasik Gurdhaams, that is up to you. I wont debate you n that. But still till this day millions of Sikhs(including the Sikh missionaries) all over the world do ardas for Khullay Darshan, Seva and upkeep of Nankana Sahib and other Gurdhaams which are in Pakistan. It is the religious duty of the Sikh nation to take care of and do darshan of historic Gurdwaras where ever they may be that are linked with our Guru Sahibaan.

I fail to see your logic of bringing in drugs or hindutva hotbeds into this. If Sikhs youth have a drug problem or if there are hindutva hotbeds in India, that does not negate our duty towards our historical Gurdhaams. In fact, that is exactly what Hindutva forces would want Sikhs to do, they would just love for Sikhs to never do Yatra in Pakistan and have friendly relationships with rulers of that country. It's almost like someone saying Sikhs should stop keeping Rehit, or doing Paath because we have a drug problem or there is a hindu hotbet somewhere in India.

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It is mutually beneficial for both Sikh nation and Pakistan to have friendly relations.

D = I disagree Paji. It is a unilateral beneficial relationship for the Pakistani's. Ethnically cleanse Pakistan of Sikhs and earn hard currency from the ensuing pilgrims. Pure genius on the part of the Pakistani's. Kind of like if the Germans were ever to try selling package tours in Israel to the Jews to visit German synagogues.

For the Sikh we get to have darshan of our historical Gurdwaras associated with the Gurus, most of our heritage is actually located in Pakistan.

D = Gurbani, Gurmat and Guru Sahib oppose pilgrimages. Wherever Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is present whether that be Tarn Taran, Vancouver or London, our Guru Maharaj (Shabad Bani) is present. We are not Hindu's or Muslims to pay obeisance to mere shells of buildings due to their physical location on the planet. Sikh ik vakhri Qaum ne Bhai Sahib. Guru Sahib want us to worship in simple Gurdwara's rather than embellishing Sri Harmandir Sahib with gold when billions go hungry or lack medical treatment globally.

One might say, that land is the cradle of the Sikh nation.

D = Agreed but the Khalsa Panth's long term vision should be on how those area's will be ruled with justice by Khalsa Raj. To that extent, our focus should not be wasting millions to increase the Pakistani government's revenue from Sikhs but on how those non-Sikh communities in Pakistan such as Hindu's and Christians especially bolster the local Sikh population there for upkeep of the said Gurughars in Pakistan. We do nothing on that front but instead waste money on pilgrimages which are anti-Gurmat.

So of course we need and should have good relations with Pakistan.

D = Respected Bhai Sahib, this is the exact same logic that the stooges on behalf of Delhi espouse (in reverse).

You do not see any benefits to doing Yatra of our ithihasik Gurdhaams, that is up to you. I wont debate you on that.

D = Exactly, Gurmat is 100% clear cut against pilgrimages.

D = Guru Sahib condemn pilgrimages as utter futility, particularly when the money wasted on pilgrimages should be spent uplifting the poor and needy.

But still till this day millions of Sikhs(including the Sikh missionaries) all over the world do ardas for Khullay Darshan, Seva and upkeep of Nankana Sahib and other Gurdhaams which are in Pakistan.

D = Agreed Paji but "khullay darshan" more correctly refers to a just Khalsa Raj encompassing Sri Nankana Sahib (as one example) not enriching the corrupt coffers of the Pakistani government as a consequence of the Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs. There are millions of Sindhi's (that some wrongly classify as Hindu's) and Punjabi Christians (overwhelmingly from the same background as Bhai Jiwan Singh Ji) that (as new members of the Sikh Panth) can assist current local Sikhs in upkeep if only we focus on parchaar to them rather than pilgrimages.

It is the religious duty of the Sikh nation to take care of and do darshan of historic Gurdwaras where ever they may be that are linked with our Guru Sahibaan.

D = I don't disagree Paji however it is a bigger and more important duty right here right now that we focus on fighting alcohol, drugs, infanticide, biraderi, illiteracy, cancer and poverty afflicting the Sikh Panth in primarily east Punjab before we spend the money doing worthless pilgrimages which are against Gurmat.

I fail to see your logic of bringing in drugs or hindutva hotbeds into this.

D = They are inextricably linked Paji. Combatting drugs, illiteracy, biraderi and female infanticide are far more important than tourist pilgrimage tours that benefit Pakistan or Hindutva shopkeepers in snow covered area's of Uttarakhand (as an Indian example of a recently popular Hindutva-promoted Sikh pilgrimage destination).

If Sikhs youth have a drug problem or if there are hindutva hotbeds in India, that does not negate our duty towards our historical Gurdhaams.

D = What is our more fundamental duty as Sikhs Paji? Is it to protect human beings from infanticide, drugs, alcohol, cancer, illiteracy, biraderi discrimination and poverty as a bigger priority? Or is it to go on tourist pilgrimages to Pakistan or Hindutva area's whilst so many innocents are suffering?

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D = Nonsense Jagsaw. I find it amazing that you are repeating fictitious claims by Pakistani polemicists

I've never even read anything witten on the matter by a Pakistani, so I don't see how I could be repeating things one said.

I'm getting my facts from 2 sources:

  1. The official British gazateers about the numbers dead
  2. The oral accounts of my bajurgs in doaba who used to tell me how they and their jathas used to massacre whole families of muslims in Jalandhar district in those few weeks.

See ? Not a Pakistani in sight.

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I'm getting my facts from 2 sources:

  1. The official British gazateers about the numbers dead

D = Well presumably you are aware that the British overwhelmingly sided with the Muslims by granting them the lion's share of Punjab to the overwhelming detriment of the Sikhs? Those same British, whose questionable figures you rely upon, were ably supported in 1849 by their Punjabi Muslim and Dogra allies to ensure the downfall of Khalsa Raj. History bears witness that the Sikhs suffered an unparalleled Genocide in per capita terms in 1947. For every Muslim killed in 1947, Sikhs suffered at least fifteen times as many casualties on a per capita basis (given the far smaller population of our community). If England and Scotland fight a war, in which equal numbers of English and Scots die (then the Scottish casualty figures will be at least ten times higher in per capita terms given their smaller population). That is the fate that befell the Sikhs at the hands of Muslims and British in 1947. No Sikh would ever support the tragic loss of life of any innocent victim but I'm staggered that you do not appropriate the overwhelming and ultimate blame for the events of 1947 on the Pakistani Muslims and that you appear not to concede that Sikhs had no choice but to stand their ground in area's where the Panth had critical population mass of at least comprising a 30% minority in order to avoid the Genocide of millions of Sikhs.

  1. The oral accounts of my bajurgs in doaba

D = Perhaps the bajurgs neglected to inform you that Sikhs defended themselves in east Punjab as the Muslim population in east Punjab was broadly comparable to our own in population strength in Doaba (as an example). Jinnah and the Punjabi Muslims had their sights set on annexing Amritsar and all of Majha, Malwa and Doaba into Pakistan via an extension of the successful Genocide of Sikhs in western Punjab into those three districts. The choice facing the Sikhs in Doaba (as an example) was simple. Accept Genocide of our Qaum in Doaba and annexation of Doaba into Pakistan. Or given the fact that our population was broadly comparable to Muslims in Doaba to fight for the survival of the Sikh Panth in the face of the onslaught of Genocide inflicted by Muslims against us. It is only Pakistani sympathisers that would argue to the contrary given the reality that millions of Sikhs would have died in 1947 had Sikhs not stood their ground in area's where we at least comprised a 30% minority.

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