Hypothetical New Sikh Sect That Accepts Homosexuality

[Akalifauj]

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[SadSingh]

i think this question of allowing or not homosexuals to get married in gurdwara is a get question to ask the missionaries, it will be interesting to see what there response is.

[Kira]

I really disagree with several of his points. All respect to him and everything he accomplished but what he said there was discrimination. He says that no woman stood up so no woman should be allowed in the Panj Pyare. By that logic we might as well whittle it down even more, a certain caste didn't stand up so they must not be allowed in the Panj Pyare.

I think people are looking at the Panj Pyare from a historical Perspective more than a Spiritual one. This was an interesting thing this Bhaji brought up in a blog.

It was probably not a coincidence that the first Pyara who got up to offer his head to Guru Sahib wasBhai Daya Singh signifying the fact that the start of Dharma (religion) is with Daya (compassion).

Next Pyara after Bhai Daya Singh jee was Bhai Dharam Singh, in a way, reinforcing the fact that where there is Daya, there is Dharma too.

The next Pyara who offered his head to Guru Sahib was Bhai Himmat Singh, teaching us that where Daya and Dharma are present, Himmat (courage, valour) can’t be absent from there.

The fourth Pyara was Bhai Mohkam Singh, signifiying that when Daya, Dharma and Himmat all mingle, they become Mohkam (a Farsi word meaning very strong, determined).

The last Pyara was Bhai Sahib Singh and his name and inclusion symbolizes that fact that where there are Daya, Dharma, Himmat and Mohkam, there is Sahib (meaning Master i.e. Vaheguru).

Each of the Pyare represent a quality we should go towards. We should not be looking at their gender,cast,nationality,place of birth etc. We should be looking at what they represent in the Khalsa.

bhool Chuk Maph karna

[Kira]

Women aren't a part of panj pyar, because none of them got up in the original panj pyar.

Surely the virtues the Panj Pyare represent are more important than their gender. Sant Singh Ji's logic (see my above post) isn't something I can make sense off.

[Kira]

That's something you made up, no offense.. Unless you're a Brahm Gyanin we don't know anything. Besides, we are women or men based upon our Karma, and you can't deny that. As per Karma, everything we recieve is what we deserve really. Physical forms do play a part in our religion in some sense, we must keep our gurmukh swaroop or else it doesn't mean much.

I'm not a Brahm Gyanin. Far from it, but it's something I've seen a couple of Kirtani and Jathadhar/Ragi (Punjabi words really confuse me at times) mention so I brought it up here. If we're man or woman based on our Karma then does that mean being a man is more fruitful or better than being a woman? Since no woman stood up does that mean since no certain caste member stood up they should be omitted from the panj pyare? I'm not referring to the Vaisakhi nagar Kirtan where we have the Panj Pyare walk in-front of Guru-ji. I can understand that, I'm talking about amrit sanchar.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here apologizes. These are just some questions I dont quite understand.

Yes Physical forms do play a somewhat role in our religion, but we're meant to be a spiritual people. We should focus on that and less of the physical aspects right. Obviously there are things that physically need to be done, eating,sleeping,keeping fit etc but our ultimate goal is Spiritual freedom and merging with the light of god.

[MisterrSingh]

Veer ji

I don't want to make you angry.

[Guest Jacfsing2]

In this society, being male is obviously more desirable at the moment and in the past (I'm not the one who decided this lol).

There are plenty of women as well who lead better lives than some men, and vice versa. If I remember correctly, everyone from every caste(VARNA) stood up, which consists of Brahmin/Kshytria/Vaishya/Shudra. Just so you know, people who were not part of the caste system or Hindu society were automatically seen as Shudra.

Bhai Daya Singh ji- Kshytria varna(caste)

Bhai Dharam Singh ji- Vaishya varna(caste)

Bhai Himmat Singh ji- Shudra varna(caste)

Bhai Muhkam Singh ji- Kshytria or Vaishya varna (caste)

Bhai Sahib Singh ji- Brahmin varna(caste)

At the end of the day, we all have a right to do phat etc, so I don't understand why you would need to be a panj pyare anyways to recieve kalyan EVEN though it is very very great to be one. That's true about physical forms, but you need the gurmukh swaroop if you want to be part of this dharm. There's believing in a religion, and respecting a religion.. if someone doesn't even 'believe' enough to keep the swaroop that our Sri Guru ji gave us, but they like our religion that qualifies as respecting our religion rather than believing in our dharm..

Koti Koti Bhul Chuk Maaf Karni Gurudev

Preet, please stop being a sexist Hindu spreading your belief in female inferiority.

[Kira]

In this society, being male is obviously more desirable at the moment and in the past (I'm not the one who decided this lol).

It shouldn't be like that though. When you said it all depended on the person's karam it made it seem like you were saying the people with better karam are born as men. I'm sorry if that wasn't what you meant but that was the vibe I got from it.

There are plenty of women as well who lead better lives than some men, and vice versa. If I remember correctly, everyone from every caste(VARNA) stood up, which consists of Brahmin/Kshytria/Vaishya/Shudra. Just so you know, people who were not part of the caste system or Hindu society were automatically seen as Shudra.

Bhai Daya Singh ji- Kshytria varna(caste)

Bhai Dharam Singh ji- Vaishya varna(caste)

Bhai Himmat Singh ji- Shudra varna(caste)

Bhai Muhkam Singh ji- Kshytria or Vaishya varna (caste)

Bhai Sahib Singh ji- Brahmin varna(caste)

Ahh that explains a bit, but I'm sort of referring to Amrit Sanchar. In creating and giving Amrit to a newly baptised Sikh, are woman still forbidden to be a part of that? :huh2: My knowledge on Amrit Sanchar is pretty limited.

At the end of the day, we all have a right to do phat etc, so I don't understand why you would need to be a panj pyare anyways to recieve kalyan EVEN though it is very very great to be one.

I'm sure there are some people that would jump at the chance of being part of the Amrit sanchar process. Obviously we have access to phat and such but it's something that's baffling me.

That's true about physical forms, but you need the gurmukh swaroop if you want to be part of this dharm.

Obviously. It's part of our identity.

There's believing in a religion, and respecting a religion.. if someone doesn't even 'believe' enough to keep the swaroop that our Sri Guru ji gave us, but they like our religion that qualifies as respecting our religion rather than believing in our dharm..

Koti Koti Bhul Chuk Maaf Karni Gurudev

So does that mean someone who's born a sikh and does phat but doesn't keep kesh isn't a sikh? :huh2:

For example many non-amritdhari can be pretty spiritual, does that mean they just respect Sikhism and don't actually be sikhs?

[Akalifauj]

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[InderjitS]

Women should not be in Panj Piyare, it was not hukam and is not now. I dont disagree with anything coming from a true Gurmukh as Sant Ji whether it fits my thinking or not. In this case I agree with them, have my own reasons. That's not why I'm posting though..

I liked this message from Paneer Monster some years back on this very forum. Grammar, lingo and spelling mistakes aside its a good post

he definition of homosexuality plays an important role in this debate.

The oxford dictionary defines a homosexual as the ‘feeling or involving sexual attraction to people of one’s own sex.’

On this basis, homosexuality is wrong for obvious reasons (kaam).

For those that say its OK to be homosexual but not have sexual intercourse…- this is stupidity in its purest form. why would it be ok to have sexual desires but not act on them? - all sexual desires should be avoided. One should only desire to merge with Satguroo Ji. Its good to love others providing theres no sexual contact. In the Sikh faith sexual intercourse is only permissible with the one you have had anand karaj (Sikh wedding) with.

So then people ask ‘'why cant man and man have anand karaj?'’It has never been recorded in any janam sakhi (let alone orthentic janam sakhi's) or any other part of our rich and gay-free history that anand karaj has been conducted with 2 people of the same gender so why would we change a tradition laid down by our Perfect True Guru Sahibs?...

Anand Karaj is the joining of 2 souls. Sikhi recognises the perfect balance and untimate way to evoke an unspoiled and natural lifestyle. these balances are always of two entities that are clearly evident in shakta and shakti, moon and sun, ridh and sidh, physical birth and death, sri akaal thakat and sri harimandir sahib, physical and mental, miri and piri, (spiritual sense of the bride and husband lord), double sided khanda, and evidently male and female.

So in terms of Gurmat what support is there for someone to be homosexual? NONE.

We do believe in equality, homosexuals are welcome in the gurdwara like any other person who can not become the master of their mind including alchaholics, meateaters, drugabusers etc. Homosexuality is a choise, Satguru Granth Sahib Jee tells us how to place our mind at the Charan of Sri Akaal Purakh.


Gurbani has already been quoted, I don’t feel it necessary to quote any more in this post.


We are very fortunite that our Beloved Satguroo Ji;s recognised we have the intellect and brain capacity to make our own decisions. Unlike other faiths (im sure I don’t need to mention them) we don’t follow a ridiculous amount of meticulous and unneeded rules that are more complicated then java programming (if x is true then y else z) lol these rules are often hidden under the discuise of ‘life guidence’. When a religion has so many rules it is easy for one to get trapped in them and lose track of Naam Seva Simran Amritvela.

Guru Jee has made us aware of the thieves (the cause of all evil) that try to conquer our minds (kaam kroadh lobh..)… Anything that brings us close to The Eternal is truth, all else is false. You do not need sexual attraction / abuse of anand karaj to get closer to the lord… they do the oppersite. We should respect the foundations laid by our Masters and respect the sanctity of Anand Karaj.

In summerary homosexuality is wrong, one should focus on getting closer to the lord rather then getin closer to nex manz.