All The "singhs" Are Good For.

[DTF]

Ji, nobody is against mixed marriage,

D = Then Bhai Sahib why oppose the possibility of increasing the couples bond with and greater understanding of Sikhi given that they voluntarily opt for Anand Karaj?

by all means if they want to marry outside then marry outside, the Gurdwara.

D = Why should we prevent access to the Guru ghar when access is universally open to one and all?

Very few mixed marriages result in the children being brought up as Sikhs, more often then not they cut the kids hair from a few months - Sikhi lost.

D = Given that we as wider Sangat do not attempt to increase their links with the Sikh Panth and some are even blocking their Anand Karaj's physically is that surprising?

So, if these people have not commitment to their Guru, if they had they would ask, nay insist, that the partner converts to Sikhi first, but being oh so liberal they do not.

D = By bowing down before Sri Guru Granth Sahib with a sincere heart (only Akaal Purakh can judge who is sincere) the partner is in fact becoming Sikh. Sikhs are the only people who ludicrously claim that non-Sikhs come to pay obeisance at Gurdwara's. Those so-called non-Sikhs are in fact sehajdhari Sikhs if we only could muster it up in ourselves to accept them better.

Where does it stop? We allow mixed marriages, there was one recently where the hindu bride did not even have her head covered while doing lava, I ask you is this right ?

D = The bride was Sikh in my eyes (albeit that she was born to Hindu parents and hence the lack of awareness of protocol). Gurdwara sevadars should politely indicate protocol - she was wearing a dupatta i did observe in the photo.

And the guests are just outside Darbar sahib all sitting on chairs, time will come when they will have chairs inside the hall. Is this correct?

D = Those that had physical mobility ailments were sitting on chairs outside Darbar Sahib. Everyone inside was seated on the floor. You may not be aware of this but in Vancouver there were Gurdwara's historically in the past where prior to the 1970's all Sangat would be seated at an equal level - but at a level much below Guru Sahib.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji, your father, said that if you do not remain Niara, then He will withdraw His support.

D = Agreed, Guru Sahib said if we follow bipren ki reet the consequences will be there for us to face. I see the stopping of Anand Karaj's as pure bipren ki reet.

I'd love for people to discover the beauty in Sikhi and flock to its path of their own accord, but religion (as a whole, not just Sikhi) has an image problem in this day and age, with people conflating strict adherence to a religion with dogma and extremism, and most people just don't want to be seen as extremists of any variety.

D = Agreed Bhai Sahib but can we actually blame people conflating adherence with dogma when there are teams of youth including sehajdhari's blocking Anand Karaj's from taking place?

Equally, we can't bend over backwards and chop & change our ways (which, of themselves, are more than reasonable) in order to accommodate fickle individuals who want everything molded to their own desires.

D = Agreed. We would do well to remember that our own Guru's and many of our beloved shaheeds married those of erstwhile non-Sikh backgrounds with the spouses becoming great Sikhs thereafter via Anand Karaj initially.

I wouldn't want any philosophy or religion to be in a constant state of flux in order to appeal to the whims of potential followers, etc. That defeats the entire purpose of it IMO.

D = Absolutely agreed. Gurmat is permanent and eternally valid.

It's true that if you represent a religion then you represent a morality so the whole thing is about morality and not control.

D = Agreed

The example of morality is what will bring adherents to you as a religion

D = You're absolutely right.

I don't know much about Sikh morality all I see is the beard and the Turban, don't really know much more except you like to do langars from time to time. I am complete novice here.

D = Sikh morality is about creating Begumpura on Earth with the ethos of Sarbat da Bhala (the welfare of all humanity) paramount. Ie the target of Sikh morality is that there should be no child globally suffering from malnutrition, there should not be tens of millions of child orphans searching through waste to find food, there should not be millions dying from lack of medical treatment, there should not be millions killed by Genocide murdered in this new century. That is what Sikh morality is about and how we actually practically achieve this "Begumpura" in reality. The fact is that it will only occur when Sikhs have a critical population mass in order for the Khalsa Panth (supported by an enlarged wider Panth generally) have the numbers to make a positive impact on the ground.

Ji, Have some faith in your Guru.

D = I have full faith in Guru Sahib and that's why I am arguing against the anti-Gurmat actions of those protesting Anand Karaj's

When the Wuddha Ghullighara occurred maybe 40,000 Sikhs were killed and that was when the Sikh numbers were already so low, a sizable chunk was whipped out.

D = Yes you are correct that 80 to 90% of the Sikh Panth was killed off at the time by the Muslims - a greater number of fatalities in percentage terms than even the Jews suffered in the 2nd World War.

But due to Gurus kirpa we came back.

D = Absolutely. Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj! (Bole So Nihal - Sat Sri Akaal!)

This is Akaal Purkh Dhi fauj, no matter what the odds we will survive.

D = Agreed, Sikhi is unstoppable no matter what. The Truth is eternal and can never be stopped. But shooting ourselves in the foot by protesting such Anand Karaj's and alienating the couple and their subsequent future generations of children away from Sikhi is nothing to congratulate ourselves about or correlate with the above.

When I was little I would go to the Gurdwara I would see mostly short haired youth, now you go to the Gurdwara and there are young Sikhs with dhamallas and full saroop, this is a great improvement, Sikhi is growing, more then it ever was outside Punjab. So I would not be down hearted.

D = Agreed that there are pockets of hope to be seen in the Diaspora. But let's not be under any illusions that if we don't aggressively fight (on an individual level as part of the Sikh Panth) for the expansion of Sikhi globally in order for the Panth to do more for Sarbat da Bhala then we as Sikhs can look forward to more of what the last 35years since Indira Gandhi's re-election in 1980 have given us ... an increase in drugs, alcohol, female infanticide, biraderi apartheid, illiteracy, cancer and poverty. We as Sikhs should always remain in Chardi Kala but that does not mean ignoring problems we face.

Sorry Bhaji but how can you capitalize on the anad karaj ceremony by engaging with these people, are you kidding me?

D = That's up to us as Sangat to encourage the said couples to build their links with the Sangat. If we protest their Anand Karaj that hardly encourages them.

They are there for just one thing , the whole show. they are dressed to the nines, full makeup, full suits, freshly trimmed beards. They want the lava done, an very quickly, so that they can get the photographs and then off to the main events. How are you going to engage with them? When? They have no desire to listen to you or to the gianis or to the raggies.

D = Agreed, that may be so in some cases but that also applies where both spouses are nominally Sikh. So again it's up to us as ordinary Sangat to explain why Sikhi is so important for the greater global good and show via pyaar why they and there children and wider humanity will benefit from them being part of the Sikh Panth.

Mostly don't even know the protocol. This is a rare trip to the Gurdwara. When are you going to engage with them ?

D= That's our job as ordinary Sangat (not theirs). If Guru Sahib can reform the worst of the worst can we as local Sangat not try to reach out to ordinary human beings who wish to marry in a Gurdwara?

anyways way past my bedtime :-)

D = Fair enough Bhai Sahib :-) And like I said before you and your wife are very talented artists (though lol I'm not a fan of artistic representation of our Guru Sahib)

In your mind it is alright to break the rule of Sikhi; sikh can only marry a sikh. But you will never share your wife with another man to increase sikh population. Your loyalty is with your wife and you don't care for sikhi.

D = No rule is broken as both spouses who marry by Anand Karaj are acknowledging that they are Sikh (regardless of erstwhile background) by bowing down before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

D = If I was infertile I would have no problem with the wife going to a sperm bank (though I would advocate adoption before that).

D = The fact is Akalifauj Ji you still failed to address the issue in terms of how it mathematically affects our Panth's demographics going forward.

D = So there are 5 million Sikhs in this generation of marriageable age (let's assume for argument's sake).

D = Remarkably only 20% find a spouse who doesn't happen to be born in a Sikh family background (despite the populations of the two main diaspora bastions of Sikh populations ie the UK and Canada being 99% non-Sikh and even India itself supposedly being 98% non-Sikh).

D = So OK via your method people like you stand at the gates and ruin the most joyous day of a couple's life.

D = And you successfully ban 1 million erstwhile Sikhs (of the 5million = 20%) from having an Anand Karaj at a Gurdwara.

D = The consequence of which is that the couple and all their future generations are lost from Sikhi permanently.

D = Via these tactics the Diaspora Sikh populations will be half of what they currently are within just 2 generations.

D = Explain this to me mathematically Bhai Sahib in the context of the numbers I gave you.

D = Ok let's look at it that you have a 1000 ml bottle of milk ... which is losing 200ml of milk every hour (in the context of 20% marrying spouses from a different family background) ... how soon will it be before only a few drops of milk are left in the bottle? This is a simple issue which you have thus far failed to answer.

[JSinghnz]

Billy bob, calm down and go wash your panties. Sharing with your cousin larry is not a good idea.

Have some shame and stop behaving like a clown.

If you cannot change your nonsense change your user name .

Low life mercenary will be more suitable.

[JSinghnz]

Muslim men do marry non-Muslim women.

. Muslim men will make non Muslim women convert to Islam before marrying them

and the Muslim women will do the same to non Muslim men.

[Guest Jacfsing2]

D = No rule is broken as both spouses who marry by Anand Karaj are acknowledging that they are Sikh (regardless of erstwhile background) by bowing down before Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

D = If I was infertile I would have no problem with the wife going to a sperm bank (though I would advocate adoption before that).

D = The fact is Akalifauj Ji you still failed to address the issue in terms of how it mathematically affects our Panth's demographics going forward.

D = So there are 5 million Sikhs in this generation of marriageable age (let's assume for argument's sake).

D = Remarkably only 20% find a spouse who doesn't happen to be born in a Sikh family background (despite the populations of the two main diaspora bastions of Sikh populations ie the UK and Canada being 99% non-Sikh and even India itself supposedly being 98% non-Sikh).

D = So OK via your method people like you stand at the gates and ruin the most joyous day of a couple's life.

D = And you successfully ban 1 million erstwhile Sikhs (of the 5million = 20%) from having an Anand Karaj at a Gurdwara.

D = The consequence of which is that the couple and all their future generations are lost from Sikhi permanently.

D = Via these tactics the Diaspora Sikh populations will be half of what they currently are within just 2 generations.

D = Explain to this to me mathematically Bhai Sahib in the context of the numbers I gave you.

D = Ok let's look at it that you have a 1000 ml bottle of milk ... which is losing 200ml of milk every hour (in the context of 20% marrying spouses from a different family background) ... how soon will it be before only a few drops of milk are left in the bottle? This is a simple issue which you have thus far failed to answer.

Why do you put "D=" in front of every line?

[Guest Jacfsing2]

What a joke. Muslim men will make non Muslim women convert to Islam before marrying them

and the Muslim women will do the same to non Muslim men.

I'm not sure you understand, but Muslim men can according to their Sharia marry women of other faiths as long as their from "the book"(Christian and Jewish), without conversion, while a Muslim woman according to Sharia is put to death if their spouse doesn't change their faith. (In your terms, Islam is sexist).

[Balkaar]

Have some shame and stop behaving like a clown.

If you cannot change your nonsense change your user name .

Low life mercenary will be more suitable.

That's a rich bit of hypocrisy coming from this forum's most notorious merchant of meanness.

[JSinghnz]

That's a rich bit of hypocrisy coming from this forum's most notorious merchant of meanness.

Lol really. these things are beyond your small minded understanding who

wouldnt know if someone is misbehaving on our forum.

[Balkaar]

Lol really. these things are beyond your small minded understanding who

wouldnt know if someone is misbehaving on our forum.

You say that as if to prove my point

[Guest Guest]

Reality is

-2 "Punjabis" getting married in a Gurdwara is just as bad as interfaith. I don't approve of either. The first will happen forever. The second will eventually be approved everywhere due to PC liberal mindset

[eduardo]

The Islamic perspective on marriage has been explained to me as thus:

A non Muslim woman can marry a Muslim man and stay non Muslim because the religion of the children will follow that of the father and hence the children will be Muslims.

A Muslim woman can marry a non Muslim man but the man must convert to Islam so that again the religion of the children is guaranteed to become Islam because that is the religion of the father.