All The "singhs" Are Good For.

[Bundha]

DTF Ji,

To say that an example of Abrahamic faiths then leads to us condoning slavery is far fetched, and you know it.

There faiths started well before us and they believe in one God, and so do we, does that lead on to us condoning slavery as well?

It was not a comparison and not an attempt to denigrate any faith. Simple fact, when they marry they get their partners to convert first. That is a good thing, all faiths have good aspects. Yet we disrespect our Guru by standing infont of Him making adraas's, making commitments yet it is all a formality. It is all part of the wedding package. That is all it is. In the morning dress up to the hilt go to Gurdwara get the lava and then party in the afternoon - where is the respect and adhave of your Guru?????

You say 'the human being that bows before Guru Ji with a sincere heart ....' these couples and their families only step foot in the Gurdwara on the day of their wedding and you know full well they will not step in to gurughar until they go to another wedding or death. They are already lost to Sikhi !!! No big loss.

No , there will be no annihilation of the Sikhs because a number marry outside. They are already lost to Sikhi, they will not raise their kids as Sikhs so why go along with their charade of a Sikh wedding when it is just a facade.

[DTF]

That's the thing, brother, when a Muslim man marries a non-Muslim the overriding feeling is that she is now in the Muslim fold (unless the Muslim male is ultra relaxed in his adherence to Islam), and any children born as a result of that union will be raised as Muslims. And there you have their ever-increasing numbers.

Bhai Sahib Ji, compare and contrast that with the current Sikh approach (in the case of Sikh males marrying females of a previously non-Sikh background) whereby we seek to alienate even such marriages where the male is a Sikh in a patriarchal society!

Nonetheless, whilst Islam can happily survive in Muslim majority societies or where Muslim men can regularly kill Muslim females for marrying out (with ever increasing numbers of Muslim females in the West wishing to marry non-Muslims due to the greater equality and dignity they can enjoy through marrying non-Muslims) ... but in western societies where there is theoretically no Muslim immigration ... the both husband and wife being Muslim requirement would even result in their demographic disadvantage over time. Remember that Muslims have a 1.6 billion population with constant immigration so we as a smaller population cannot employ the same tactics they are as some kind of effort to preserve our population (when in fact the exact opposite will occur by people blocking so-called mixed marriages at Gurdwara's and consequently alienating the couple and their following future generations from Sikhi).

[Bundha]

DTF Ji,

nobody is against mixed marriage , by all means if you want to marry outside then marry outside, the Gurdwara.

Very few mixed marriages result in the children being brought up as Sikhs, more often then not they cut the kids hair from a few months - Sikhi lost.

So, if these people have not commitment to their Guru, if they had they would ask, nay insist, that the partner converts to Sikhi first, but being oh so liberal they do not. So why should the Gurdwara dilute its values for them. Where does it stop? We allow mixed marriages, there was one recently where the hindu bride did not even have her head covered while doing lava, I ask you is this right ? because this is where it is leading to. And the guests are just outside Darbar sahib all sitting on chairs, time will come when they will have chairs inside the hall. Is this correct?

Guru Gobind Singh Ji, your father, said that if you do not remain Niara, then He will withdraw His support.

[DTF]

Bundha = To say that an example of Abrahamic faiths then leads to us condoning slavery is far fetched, and you know it.

DTF = Not at all Bhai Sahib. If non-Sikhs faiths are wrong on a certain point, why should we as ordinary Sikhs copy them?

DTF = Obviously Sikhi is clear cut against slavery as we both agree.

Bundha = There faiths started well before us and they believe in one God, and so do we, does that lead on to us condoning slavery as well?

DTF = Bhai Sahib Ji you are not appreciating the analogy. Monotheism we believe. Slavery we do not advocate.

Bundha = Simple fact, when they marry they get their partners to convert first.

DTF = That's fine. Let them do what they want to do. Let us do what is correct for our own future.

Bundha = You say 'the human being that bows before Guru Ji with a sincere heart ....' these couples and their families only step foot in the Gurdwara on the day of their wedding and you know full well they will not step in to gurughar until they go to another wedding or death. They are already lost to Sikhi !!! No big loss.

DTF = I understand your point (and respect it in this context) however, that says more about our own failure as ordinary Sikhs.

DTF = If we cannot capitalise upon their desire for an Anand Karaj as a reason to engage with the couple and build their links to Sikhi then that is a catastrophic failure on our part (not theirs). The attitude that losing 20% or more of the Sikh population in the diaspora every generation is fine is absolutely shocking to me. Particularly in the context that we need all the population we can get for Sarbat da Bhala.

Bundha = No , there will be no annihilation of the Sikhs because a number marry outside. They are already lost to Sikhi, they will not raise their kids as Sikhs so why go along with their charade of a Sikh wedding when it is just a facade.

DTF = Explain this to me mathematically Bhai Sahib in the context of the numbers I gave you.

DTF = Ok let's look at it that you have a 1000 ml bottle of milk ... which is losing 200ml of milk every hour (in the context of 20% marrying spouses from a different family background) ... how soon will it be before only a few drops of milk are left in the bottle? This is a simple issue.

[MisterrSingh]

Bhai Sahib Ji, compare and contrast that with the current Sikh approach (in the case of Sikh males marrying females of a previously non-Sikh nackground) whereby we seek to alienate even marriages where the male is a Sikh in a patriarchal society!

Nonetheless, whilst Islam can happily survive in Muslim majority societies or where Muslim men can regularly kill Muslim females for marrying out (with ever increasing numbers of Muslim females in the West wishing to marry non-Muslims due to the greater equality and dignity they can enjoy through marrying non-Muslims) ... but in western societies where there is theoretically no Muslim immigration ... the both husband and wife being Muslim requirement would even result in their demographic disadvantage over time. Remember that Muslims have a 1.6 billion population with constant immigration so we as a smaller population cannot employ the same tactics they are as some kind of effort to preserve our population (when in fact the exact opposite will occur by people blocking so-called mixed marraiges at Gurdwara's)

It's a tough situation, brother, there's no doubt about it.

I'd love for people to discover the beauty in Sikhi and flock to its path of their own accord, but religion (as a whole, not just Sikhi) has an image problem in this day and age, with people conflating strict adherence to a religion with dogma and extremism, and most people just don't want to be seen as extremists of any variety.

Equally, we can't bend over backwards and chop & change our ways (which, of themselves, are more than reasonable) in order to accommodate fickle individuals who want everything molded to their own desires. I wouldn't want any philosophy or religion to be in a constant state of flux in order to appeal to the whims of potential followers, etc. That defeats the entire purpose of it IMO.

[eduardo]

I hear you Eduardo. But speaking for myself (as a poor example of a Sikh) I very much see the reason for more people to become Sikh globally as being exemplified through clear cut differences between the various religions in relation to issues such as slavery, gender discrimination, racism, pilgrimages, superstitions, fasts etc. Only by highlighting the said differences can we avoid the "all religions are equally beneficial to humanity" approach.

It's true that if you represent a religion then you represent a morality so the whole thing is about morality and not control.

The example of morality is what will bring adherents to you as a religion

I don't know much about Sikh morality all I see is the beard and the Turban, don't really know much more except you like to do langars from time to time.

I am complete novice here.

[Balkaar]

Has anyone considered that a lot of the so called 'Sikhs' marrying other 'Sikhs' can hardly be said to be Sikhs either? There are plenty of Punjabis who are wed in Guru Ghars who have no idea about their professed faith, but whose unions are not scrutinized at all simply because the participants both have Punjabi names. Why is this not reacted to with outrage in the manner of an Anand Karaj involving a non-Sikh who is also a non-Punjabi?

[MisterrSingh]

Has anyone considered that a lot of the so called 'Sikhs' marrying other 'Sikhs' can hardly be said to be Sikhs either? There are plenty of Punjabis who are wed in Guru Ghars who have no idea about their professed faith, but whose unions are not scrutinized at all simply because the participants both have Punjabi names. Why is this not reacted to with outrage in the manner of an Anand Karaj involving a non-Sikh who is also a non-Punjabi?

What you've highlighted, brother, is something that does my head in. We should hold Punjabis to the same standard as non-Punjabis. To not do so is hypocrisy at best, discrimination at worst. Picket the marriages of the Punjabi couple who treat the Anand Karaj as something to be overcome and tolerated for the sake of appearances; why just target the non-Sikhs?

[Bundha]

DTF Ji,

Have some faith in your Guru.

When the Wuddha Ghullighara occurred maybe 40,000 Sikhs were killed and that was when the Sikh numbers were already so low, a sizable chunk was whipped out. But due to Gurus kirpa we came back. This is Akaal Purkh Dhi fauj, no matter what the odds we will survive.

When I was little I would go to the Gurdwara I would see mostly short haired youth, now you go to the Gurdwara and there are young Sikhs with dhamallas and full saroop, this is a great improvement, Sikhi is growing, more then it ever was outside Punjab. So I would not be down hearted.

Sorry Bhaji but how can you capitalize on the anad karaj ceremony by engaging with these people, are you kidding me?

They are there for just one thing , the whole show. they are dressed to the nines, full makeup, full suits, freshly trimmed beards.

They want the lava done, an very quickly, so that they can get the photographs and then off to the main events. How are you going to

engage with them? When? They have no desire to listen to you or to the gianis or to the raggies.

Mostly don't even know the protocol. This is a rare trip to the Gurdwara. When are you going to engage with them ?

anyways way past my bedtime :-)

[Akalifauj]

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