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Sikhi Pantheistic ?

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I know we are monotheists (Ik onkar) but i was recently asked by someone to describe how sikhi understands the idea of god and evelution, i said we dont deny evelution as we believe god is a part of nature and god us eberything, but then i was questioned if sikhi was pantheistic then (seeing God as part of the universe and nature) the desription of Waheguru also matches that title, so are we a pntheistic and monotheistic religion?

Thanks

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

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I know we are monotheists (Ik onkar) but i was recently asked by someone to describe how sikhi understands the idea of god and evelution, i said we dont deny evelution as we believe god is a part of nature and god us eberything, but then i was questioned if sikhi was pantheistic then (seeing God as part of the universe and nature) the desription of Waheguru also matches that title, so are we a pntheistic and monotheistic religion?

Thanks

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

There's nothing in Gurbani that contradicts evolution, or any of science. But we believe that God is the universe, but the universe is just a manifestation of Waheguru, a part of his creation. Waheguru is also a separate divine being who is perfectly conscious and capable of thinking,creating,destroying. Waheguru is hard to describe in so little words but he is isn't just a word for the universe. So no Pantheistic would be wrong.

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There's nothing in Gurbani that contradicts evolution, or any of science. But we believe that God is the universe, but the universe is just a manifestation of Waheguru, a part of his creation. Waheguru is also a separate divine being who is perfectly conscious and capable of thinking,creating,destroying. Waheguru is hard to describe in so little words but he is isn't just a word for the universe. So no Pantheistic would be wrong.

thanks light yagami

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capable of thinking,

Waheguru is not a human. How can it "think"? How can the all pervading One, how can the force in the bacteria, to the great elephant, the force driving the sun, the orbits of the planets, how can that One be anything like a human?

How is it possible for us to understand how it works, how it acts?

Panenthiestic is a better word to describe the concept of Waheguru.

Waheguru is the Universe, it drives it. But Waheguru is beyond the Universe, it is above this manifestation. Everything is simply a "manifestation" of that One. When these things are destroyed, they simply return to the One.

ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥

Logaa Bharam N Bhoolahu Bhaaee ||

O people, O Siblings, do not wander deluded by doubt.

ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Khaalik Khalak Khalak Mehi Khaalik Poor Rehiou Srab Thaanee ||1|| Rehaao ||

The Creation is in the Creator, the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||

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Waheguru is not a human. How can it "think"? How can the all pervading One, how can the force in the bacteria, to the great elephant, the force driving the sun, the orbits of the planets, how can that One be anything like a human?

How is it possible for us to understand how it works, how it acts?

Panenthiestic is a better word to describe the concept of Waheguru.

Waheguru is the Universe, it drives it. But Waheguru is beyond the Universe, it is above this manifestation. Everything is simply a "manifestation" of that One. When these things are destroyed, they simply return to the One.

Panthestic belief is that the Universe with all it's laws, structures, being is god and the concept of a God as in the one who creates,destroys,sustains,communicates is redundant. It's mentioned countless times that Waheguru is able to communicate, The Japji Sahib is said to be given to Guru Nanak by Waheguru, Waheguru even speaks to Guru Gobind Singh Ji before he is born in this world. Perhaps I was a bit rash to suggest "think" is the right word, he's beyond that. But the key concept of Pantheistic is the belief that the universe is god. Our Gurbani tells us this is true but Waheguru is also a completely separate divinity as well.

Pantheistic would be the wrong word as it eradicates the concept of a God which is also separate from the Universe. Waheguru is the universe but the universe isn't waheguru. The Universe can be destroyed, Waheguru can't.

ਸਚ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ सच खंडि वसै निरंकारु ॥ Sacẖ kẖand vasai nirankār. In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides.

ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥ करि करि वेखै नदरि निहाल ॥ Kar kar vekẖai naḏar nihāl. Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.
ਤਿਥੈ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡ ॥ तिथै खंड मंडल वरभंड ॥ Ŧithai kẖand mandal varbẖand. There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਥੈ ਤ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਅੰਤ ॥ जे को कथै त अंत न अंत ॥ Je ko kathai ṯa anṯ na anṯ. If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.
ਤਿਥੈ ਲੋਅ ਲੋਅ ਆਕਾਰ ॥ तिथै लोअ लोअ आकार ॥ Ŧithai lo▫a lo▫a ākār. There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.
ਜਿਵ ਜਿਵ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਵੈ ਤਿਵ ਕਾਰ ॥ जिव जिव हुकमु तिवै तिव कार ॥ Jiv jiv hukam ṯivai ṯiv kār. As He commands, so they exist.
ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਕਰਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ वेखै विगसै करि वीचारु ॥ vekẖai vigsai kar vīcẖār. He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.
ਨਾਨਕ ਕਥਨਾ ਕਰੜਾ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੩੭॥ नानक कथना करड़ा सारु ॥३७॥ Nānak kathnā karṛā sār. ||37|| O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel! ||37||

I'll admit my understanding Pantheistic point of view on life is rather limited. But to my understanding Associating Waheguru with Pantheism completely is a bit of a stretch.
Then again us trying to contemplate him is foolhardy haha.

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Panthestic belief is that the Universe with all it's laws, structures, being is god and the concept of a God as in the one who creates,destroys,sustains,communicates is redundant. It's mentioned countless times that Waheguru is able to communicate, The Japji Sahib is said to be given to Guru Nanak by Waheguru, Waheguru even speaks to Guru Gobind Singh Ji before he is born in this world. Perhaps I was a bit rash to suggest "think" is the right word, he's beyond that. But the key concept of Pantheistic is the belief that the universe is god. Our Gurbani tells us this is true but Waheguru is also a completely separate divinity as well.

Pantheistic would be the wrong word as it eradicates the concept of a God which is also separate from the Universe. Waheguru is the universe but the universe isn't waheguru. The Universe can be destroyed, Waheguru can't.

ਸਚ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ सच खंडि वसै निरंकारु ॥ Sacẖ kẖand vasai nirankār. In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides.

ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥ करि करि वेखै नदरि निहाल ॥ Kar kar vekẖai naḏar nihāl. Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.
ਤਿਥੈ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡ ॥ तिथै खंड मंडल वरभंड ॥ Ŧithai kẖand mandal varbẖand. There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਥੈ ਤ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਅੰਤ ॥ जे को कथै त अंत न अंत ॥ Je ko kathai ṯa anṯ na anṯ. If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.
ਤਿਥੈ ਲੋਅ ਲੋਅ ਆਕਾਰ ॥ तिथै लोअ लोअ आकार ॥ Ŧithai lo▫a lo▫a ākār. There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.
ਜਿਵ ਜਿਵ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਵੈ ਤਿਵ ਕਾਰ ॥ जिव जिव हुकमु तिवै तिव कार ॥ Jiv jiv hukam ṯivai ṯiv kār. As He commands, so they exist.
ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਕਰਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ वेखै विगसै करि वीचारु ॥ vekẖai vigsai kar vīcẖār. He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.
ਨਾਨਕ ਕਥਨਾ ਕਰੜਾ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੩੭॥ नानक कथना करड़ा सारु ॥३७॥ Nānak kathnā karṛā sār. ||37|| O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel! ||37||

I'll admit my understanding Pantheistic point of view on life is rather limited. But to my understanding Associating Waheguru with Pantheism completely is a bit of a stretch.
Then again us trying to contemplate him is foolhardy haha.

Which is why I suggested the word panenthiestic, where Waheguru is the Universe, but beyond it as well.

This is just my interpretation.

Thank you for not attacking me or calling me a nastik or RSS agent, I've had some people start to attack me for sharing ideas.

I disagree with Waheguru "communicating", my idea is not of this man or entity who communicates with people. Sure, Waheguru is pervading within all of us right now, everywhere. We can form that connection with this singular force. We can experience Waheguru, the awesome enlightener.

Does that mean he sits there talking to people and comes up with plans and ideas for them? I mean I doubt Waheguru would behave anything like a human, talking and thinking.

Bani tells us that Waheguru is beyond our understanding, so It is nothing like a human. It is not limited by a brain or a body to be able to "think" and react to stimuli.

Sach khand is not this special place where the "formless" One resides. By definition, the formless One cannot be restricted by residing in a specific place. This means that sach khand must be everywhere Waheguru is. So sach khand can be reached by us anywhere. Sach khand is the state of being when we become one with our creator. When we lose the power of maya, the duality and begin to experience life through the One.

Waheguru is everything, the bacteria, the ant, the human and the elephant or just part of the play. Waheguru is the director, but It is the actor as well.

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Which is why I suggested the word panenthiestic, where Waheguru is the Universe, but beyond it as well.

But Panthiestic don't really accept the concept of a god that's beyond the universe. It's more the universe is god and that's it.

This is just my interpretation.

Nothing wrong it :D

Thank you for not attacking me or calling me a nastik or RSS agent, I've had some people start to attack me for sharing ideas.

If you want I can start now. :)

I disagree with Waheguru "communicating", my idea is not of this man or entity who communicates with people. Sure, Waheguru is pervading within all of us right now, everywhere. We can form that connection with this singular force. We can experience Waheguru, the awesome enlightener.

True, Very true. But what my point was Guru Nanak not only experienced Waheguru but Waheguru assigned him the task of starting our faith. He also gave him Japji Sahib. In his autobiography Guru Gobind Singh Ji even mentions how Waheguru sent him down to extinguish evil. That;s why I believe Waheguru isn't just a force, but a conscious one.Obviously this is me being very simplistic, he's beyond words and I do apologize to waheguru for trying to describe him.

Does that mean he sits there talking to people and comes up with plans and ideas for them? I mean I doubt Waheguru would behave anything like a human, talking and thinking.

Depends how you look at it. Waheguru has limitless forms. Creator,destroyer,sustainer,father,mother. I believe experiencing Waheguru is just the beginning. I may be wrong of course.

Bani tells us that Waheguru is beyond our understanding, so It is nothing like a human. It is not limited by a brain or a body to be able to "think" and react to stimuli.

Completely true. Might I turn your attention to a theory that the universe is a living being? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it.

Sach khand is not this special place where the "formless" One resides. By definition, the formless One cannot be restricted by residing in a specific place. This means that sach khand must be everywhere Waheguru is. So sach khand can be reached by us anywhere. Sach khand is the state of being when we become one with our creator. When we lose the power of maya, the duality and begin to experience life through the One.

also true. Many sikhs believe that the Spiritual realms described in Japji sahib are more like steps. But there is a school of thought that suggests they are actual physical realms as well. Obviously Waheguru is everywhere but at the same time are we really inclined to say what he can't and can do. My own interpretation of that was more like Sach Khand is the heart. Again not saying Waheguru has a heart but like sach Khand is that region where one's duality is abandoned completely and they merge with the lord. As a result that region is where Waheguru "resides" in a sense.

If that makes sense.

Waheguru is everything, the bacteria, the ant, the human and the elephant or just part of the play. Waheguru is the director, but It is the actor as well.

everything is within his Hukham, no one is outside of it :0 agree there completely.

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But Panthiestic don't really accept the concept of a god that's beyond the universe. It's more the universe is god and that's it.

Nothing wrong it :D

If you want I can start now. :)

True, Very true. But what my point was Guru Nanak not only experienced Waheguru but Waheguru assigned him the task of starting our faith. He also gave him Japji Sahib. In his autobiography Guru Gobind Singh Ji even mentions how Waheguru sent him down to extinguish evil. That;s why I believe Waheguru isn't just a force, but a conscious one.Obviously this is me being very simplistic, he's beyond words and I do apologize to waheguru for trying to describe him.

Depends how you look at it. Waheguru has limitless forms. Creator,destroyer,sustainer,father,mother. I believe experiencing Waheguru is just the beginning. I may be wrong of course.

Completely true. Might I turn your attention to a theory that the universe is a living being? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it.

also true. Many sikhs believe that the Spiritual realms described in Japji sahib are more like steps. But there is a school of thought that suggests they are actual physical realms as well. Obviously Waheguru is everywhere but at the same time are we really inclined to say what he can't and can do. My own interpretation of that was more like Sach Khand is the heart. Again not saying Waheguru has a heart but like sach Khand is that region where one's duality is abandoned completely and they merge with the lord. As a result that region is where Waheguru "resides" in a sense.

If that makes sense.

everything is within his Hukham, no one is outside of it :0 agree there completely.

Haha, I'm saying panENtheistic, not pantheistic. PanENtheism means Waheguru is the Universe, but is also greater than it. This is what Sikhi (I believe) says about Waheguru, it is the Universe, it is the Hukam, the law, but it is above this form.

It is part of the Hukam. I'm not going to say Waheguru communicated with Guru Nanak Dev Ji to spread Sikhi, rather the Hukam was for Guru Nanak Dev Ji to spread Sikhi. Guru Nanak Dev Ji took it upon themselves to spread the truth in the form of Sikhi.

I don't think Waheguru "gave" Japji Sahib to Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Rather, I think Japji Sahib comes from sach khand, a state where Guru Nanak Dev Ji was one with Waheguru. So it is divinely inspired, but I don't think Waheguru literally wrote it (but everything is Waheguru, so technically, Waheguru did do it).

I reject the idea of prophets, I don't think Waheguru shoots down prophets and messengers to Earth like a post man. Waheguru will enlighten whoever needs to be enlightened.

Karmi apo apni kai nerhe kai door - our actions are own, some are drawn closer, some go further away (according to their actions). If someone attempts to align with Waheguru, they will be enlightened.

Whether the Universe is a living being? Well at one point, the Universe became conscious of itself. When it spawned us humans, it became aware of itself. We are not separate from creation. Waheguru is not separate from us. Perhaps Waheguru wanted beings to be aware of themselves.

Sach khand are those people who realise Waheguru. I agree with you, bani does say there is no difference between Waheguru and the devotee.

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Haha, I'm saying panENtheistic, not pantheistic. PanENtheism means Waheguru is the Universe, but is also greater than it. This is what Sikhi (I believe) says about Waheguru, it is the Universe, it is the Hukam, the law, but it is above this form.

Ahh right, I misread I do apologize.

It is part of the Hukam. I'm not going to say Waheguru communicated with Guru Nanak Dev Ji to spread Sikhi, rather the Hukam was for Guru Nanak Dev Ji to spread Sikhi. Guru Nanak Dev Ji took it upon themselves to spread the truth in the form of Sikhi.

Guru Nanak disappeared for 3 days, I wonder if you're familiar with this Sakhi as its one of the more well documented ones. During those three days people searched for him and when he returned that's when he proclaimed no hindu and no muslim and also revealed the Japji Sahib. Going from that I would say Waheguru did "communicate" with Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Physically speaking you're right. But the Shabad, the word of god isn't bound by physicality. It comes in many forms, our Gurbani is just one form of it. The Bhagats who Waheguru blessed and then our teachers put their bani into our Guru Granth Sahib all had similar if not the same line of thought as our Guru Sahib. God isn't restricted to one set form in bani.

I reject the idea of prophets, I don't think Waheguru shoots down prophets and messengers to Earth like a post man. Waheguru will enlighten whoever needs to be enlightened.

The Dasam Granth sort of alludes to something against that.

Karmi apo apni kai nerhe kai door - our actions are own, some are drawn closer, some go further away (according to their actions). If someone attempts to align with Waheguru, they will be enlightened.

Very true.

Whether the Universe is a living being? Well at one point, the Universe became conscious of itself. When it spawned us humans, it became aware of itself. We are not separate from creation. Waheguru is not separate from us. Perhaps Waheguru wanted beings to be aware of themselves.

I mean like a living being, thinking, "living" in the sense it has a heart and stuff. Our self awareness is a pretty hot topic. I think our self awareness was something we developed through Evolution. Obviously by Waheguru's kirpa.

Sach khand are those people who realise Waheguru. I agree with you, bani does say there is no difference between Waheguru and the devotee.

Very true also.

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Ahh right, I misread I do apologize.

Guru Nanak disappeared for 3 days, I wonder if you're familiar with this Sakhi as its one of the more well documented ones. During those three days people searched for him and when he returned that's when he proclaimed no hindu and no muslim and also revealed the Japji Sahib. Going from that I would say Waheguru did "communicate" with Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Physically speaking you're right. But the Shabad, the word of god isn't bound by physicality. It comes in many forms, our Gurbani is just one form of it. The Bhagats who Waheguru blessed and then our teachers put their bani into our Guru Granth Sahib all had similar if not the same line of thought as our Guru Sahib. God isn't restricted to one set form in bani.

The Dasam Granth sort of alludes to something against that.

Very true.

I mean like a living being, thinking, "living" in the sense it has a heart and stuff. Our self awareness is a pretty hot topic. I think our self awareness was something we developed through Evolution. Obviously by Waheguru's kirpa.

Very true also.

Ahh right, I misread I do apologize.

Guru Nanak disappeared for 3 days, I wonder if you're familiar with this Sakhi as its one of the more well documented ones. During those three days people searched for him and when he returned that's when he proclaimed no hindu and no muslim and also revealed the Japji Sahib. Going from that I would say Waheguru did "communicate" with Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Physically speaking you're right. But the Shabad, the word of god isn't bound by physicality. It comes in many forms, our Gurbani is just one form of it. The Bhagats who Waheguru blessed and then our teachers put their bani into our Guru Granth Sahib all had similar if not the same line of thought as our Guru Sahib. God isn't restricted to one set form in bani.

The Dasam Granth sort of alludes to something against that.

Very true.

I mean like a living being, thinking, "living" in the sense it has a heart and stuff. Our self awareness is a pretty hot topic. I think our self awareness was something we developed through Evolution. Obviously by Waheguru's kirpa.

Very true also.

Our Gurus told us to respect nature, and the animals. Also, Albert Enstine was a Pantheistic too.

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Our Gurus told us to respect nature, and the animals. Also, Albert Enstine was a Pantheistic too.

They (Satguru) respected nature as they new their was one Vaheguru who was truly omnipresent. Pantheism is the idea that everyone is their own God.

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    • remember when the kar sewa babe tried demolishing the 200 yr old dharshan deori in the middle of the night at tarn taran darbar sahib, well 10 months on and nothing has been restored yet! no one has been arrested for the damage despite a complaint made.  Funny how the youth that damaged the statues of the dancing people at amritsar were arrested straight away, yet the people involved in demolishing a 200 yr old building at Tarn Taran darbar sahib are still walking around free. https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/10-months-on-no-progress-on-restoration-of-darshani-deori-in-tarn-taran-gurdwara/story-TUnzuVr5i9TtVxaJqbnRHK.html 10 months on, no progress on restoration of Darshani Deori in Tarn Taran gurdwara   CITIES Updated: Jan 30, 2020 22:55 IST Anil Sharma Hindustan Times, Tarn Taran A view of the partially demolished Darshani Deori of Gurudwara Darbar Sahib in Tarn Tran in on Saturday. (HT PHOTO)       Tarn Taran Ten months after Kar Sewa activists demolished a portion of the Darshani Deori, the main entrance leading to the sanctum sanctorum of the historic Gurdwara Darbar Sahib on March 31, restoration and preservation of the structure is yet to begin. Baba Jagtar Singh headed the Kar Sewa Group involved in the incident, but was not present at the spot. The only work towards restoration has been that the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) has formed a sub-committee of its members and subject experts for the preservation and renovation of this important relic of Sikh heritage. Gurdwara manager Balwinder Singh said, “Restoration work of the Deori has not been started as SAD (Amritsar) president Simranjit Singh Mann has filed a writ petition in the Punjab and Haryana high court. However, we have no stay order from the court on restoration and preservation work of the structure.” Mann has filed a plea in court seeking action against Baba Jagtar Singh and the activists, who, he claimed, had ‘destroyed’ the gurdwara. An SGPC member Bhagwant Singh Sialka claimed, “Experts from Guru Nanak Dev Engineering College, Ludhiana, have scanned the structure for its restoration.” No action against accused, despite SGPC panel indictment  The accused in the case are roaming free, in spite of a four-member SGPC probe committee’s recommendation of a police case against them. The panel comprised Sialka, Bhai Ram Singh (both SGPC members); Gurmeet Singh and Harjit Singh Lalu Ghuman (assistant secretaries). It had submitted its report to SGPC president Gobind Singh Longowal on April 5, 2019. After this, Longowal had said they will get police cases registered against the accused. The panel had held the Kar Sewa and the then manager of the gurdwara, Partap Singh, ‘guilty’ of demolishing the historic structure without its permission. It had also taken back the right of doing Kar Sewa (voluntarily religious service) at the gurdwara from Baba Jagtar Singh. “The Kar Sewa head had tendered an apology, and had claimed that he had not received the new order from the SGPC for not demolishing the historic structure. The probe into this claim is on,” Sialka told HT over phone. When questioned, if a police complaint had been lodged against the accused, SGPC chief secretary Roop Singh said, “I am not aware. I hope the manager of the gurdwara must have lodged a police complaint.” Gurdwara manager Balwinder said no complaint had been lodged. “The SGPC is not only shielding the accused, it is also playing with the sentiments of devotees,” claimed Harpal Singh, general secretary, SAD (Amritsar). Tejbir Singh, of Tarn Taran, said, “For trying to demolish folk dancers’ statues at the Heritage Street, police have registered a case of attempt to murder. For demolishing a 200-year-old historic structure, however, no action has been taken. This is shameful.” Quotes (if needed)   Restoration work of the Deori has not been started as SAD (A) president Simranjit Singh Mann has filed a writ petition in the Punjab and Haryana HC. Balwinder Singh, manager, Gurdwara Darbar Sahib, Tarn Taran The SGPC is not only shielding the accused, it is also playing with the sentiments of devotees. Harpal Singh, general secretary, SAD (A)
    • Samurai armour was really quite deceptive when it came down to appearance, it looks really fragile and not fit for purpose, but was extremely tough.  The Samurai developed a special lacquer which was used to toughen natural materials.  This enabled the armour to retain toughness and lightweight properties which enabled the Samurai to move with speed and agility.  They wore face masks that were intended to frighten the enemy whilst masking ones own expressions during battle.     
    • Today we have a major issue with Sikh youth walking into university classes like sociology and walking out extremist.  Whether that be feminist extremist or LGBTQ extremist or atheist.  When it comes to Gurbani these groups and people look for lines or a line of Gurbani and take it out of context to support their extremist LGBTQ beliefs on marriage,  gender being same or new thing no gender or infinite gender.  Like we had the ignorant couple from the states who got married by having his wife walk along with him.  The point being they dont follow Guru Sahib.   They attain 'knowledge' else where and want to force it on Sikhi.   The Sikh youth laugh at the Sikhs who bow at a fake baba's feet.  But, the irony is the Gurmukhs are shaking their head at both of them.  One is bowing to a fake baba and the other is bowing their mind by accepting secular knowledge that will always be in the trial phase.  Neither are better than the other.  The youth of today, and it's been done by a few old farts, attain masters or doctorate in fields like chemistry,  sociology or another field and then say we have a doctorate in Sikhi.  They write articles on what they want Sikhi to be and in their name they put "dr.".  Such deception is being done by these old farts.  Sikhi is about honesty, yet they start their article with deception.    If you want to be a Sikh, then Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the teacher and classroom.  Not your sociology professor who tells you abortion of a 37 week baby is a women birth right choice, but dont kill that cow because imeat industry  is killing the environment,  go vegan.   In short,  dont be the monkey with the wrench. 
    • When it comes to other religious scriptures why did Guru Sahib say to read them? Was it to understand how to be moral? Gurbani provides us with spiritual wisdom and morals of the highest kind. It would be counterproductive to look else where for morals. Guru sahib says, give me your head (completely and only focus on the shabad) when you come on the Gurmat path. Guru Sahib tells sikhs to read other religious scriptures because when a Gurmukh has fully attuned his mind with Gurbani he can see naam everywhere. So when reading other religious scripture the Gurmukh can pick up on the naam that is there and serve the humans that are lost in the vedas, gita, bible, Koran, Torah, etc. Also Gurbani makes references on other religious scriptures concepts so we can achieve a total picture of their concepts when reading their scriptures. But many lose sight of the goal and start collecting merchandise (intellectual knowledge and maya)from these scriptures. But Guru Sahib says all merchandise can be achieved from Gurbani. Anand Sahib says this path is sharper than a double edged sword and finer than a hair.  The path of Gurmat can be simple if we follow the instructions of Gurbani or life can be made difficult by losing the purpose in life as Gurbani describes it.
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