Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
singhcity

Sikhi Pantheistic ?

Recommended Posts

I know we are monotheists (Ik onkar) but i was recently asked by someone to describe how sikhi understands the idea of god and evelution, i said we dont deny evelution as we believe god is a part of nature and god us eberything, but then i was questioned if sikhi was pantheistic then (seeing God as part of the universe and nature) the desription of Waheguru also matches that title, so are we a pntheistic and monotheistic religion?

Thanks

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know we are monotheists (Ik onkar) but i was recently asked by someone to describe how sikhi understands the idea of god and evelution, i said we dont deny evelution as we believe god is a part of nature and god us eberything, but then i was questioned if sikhi was pantheistic then (seeing God as part of the universe and nature) the desription of Waheguru also matches that title, so are we a pntheistic and monotheistic religion?

Thanks

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

There's nothing in Gurbani that contradicts evolution, or any of science. But we believe that God is the universe, but the universe is just a manifestation of Waheguru, a part of his creation. Waheguru is also a separate divine being who is perfectly conscious and capable of thinking,creating,destroying. Waheguru is hard to describe in so little words but he is isn't just a word for the universe. So no Pantheistic would be wrong.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's nothing in Gurbani that contradicts evolution, or any of science. But we believe that God is the universe, but the universe is just a manifestation of Waheguru, a part of his creation. Waheguru is also a separate divine being who is perfectly conscious and capable of thinking,creating,destroying. Waheguru is hard to describe in so little words but he is isn't just a word for the universe. So no Pantheistic would be wrong.

thanks light yagami

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
capable of thinking,

Waheguru is not a human. How can it "think"? How can the all pervading One, how can the force in the bacteria, to the great elephant, the force driving the sun, the orbits of the planets, how can that One be anything like a human?

How is it possible for us to understand how it works, how it acts?

Panenthiestic is a better word to describe the concept of Waheguru.

Waheguru is the Universe, it drives it. But Waheguru is beyond the Universe, it is above this manifestation. Everything is simply a "manifestation" of that One. When these things are destroyed, they simply return to the One.

ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥

Logaa Bharam N Bhoolahu Bhaaee ||

O people, O Siblings, do not wander deluded by doubt.

ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Khaalik Khalak Khalak Mehi Khaalik Poor Rehiou Srab Thaanee ||1|| Rehaao ||

The Creation is in the Creator, the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places. ||1||Pause||

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Waheguru is not a human. How can it "think"? How can the all pervading One, how can the force in the bacteria, to the great elephant, the force driving the sun, the orbits of the planets, how can that One be anything like a human?

How is it possible for us to understand how it works, how it acts?

Panenthiestic is a better word to describe the concept of Waheguru.

Waheguru is the Universe, it drives it. But Waheguru is beyond the Universe, it is above this manifestation. Everything is simply a "manifestation" of that One. When these things are destroyed, they simply return to the One.

Panthestic belief is that the Universe with all it's laws, structures, being is god and the concept of a God as in the one who creates,destroys,sustains,communicates is redundant. It's mentioned countless times that Waheguru is able to communicate, The Japji Sahib is said to be given to Guru Nanak by Waheguru, Waheguru even speaks to Guru Gobind Singh Ji before he is born in this world. Perhaps I was a bit rash to suggest "think" is the right word, he's beyond that. But the key concept of Pantheistic is the belief that the universe is god. Our Gurbani tells us this is true but Waheguru is also a completely separate divinity as well.

Pantheistic would be the wrong word as it eradicates the concept of a God which is also separate from the Universe. Waheguru is the universe but the universe isn't waheguru. The Universe can be destroyed, Waheguru can't.

ਸਚ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ सच खंडि वसै निरंकारु ॥ Sacẖ kẖand vasai nirankār. In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides.

ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥ करि करि वेखै नदरि निहाल ॥ Kar kar vekẖai naḏar nihāl. Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.
ਤਿਥੈ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡ ॥ तिथै खंड मंडल वरभंड ॥ Ŧithai kẖand mandal varbẖand. There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਥੈ ਤ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਅੰਤ ॥ जे को कथै त अंत न अंत ॥ Je ko kathai ṯa anṯ na anṯ. If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.
ਤਿਥੈ ਲੋਅ ਲੋਅ ਆਕਾਰ ॥ तिथै लोअ लोअ आकार ॥ Ŧithai lo▫a lo▫a ākār. There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.
ਜਿਵ ਜਿਵ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਵੈ ਤਿਵ ਕਾਰ ॥ जिव जिव हुकमु तिवै तिव कार ॥ Jiv jiv hukam ṯivai ṯiv kār. As He commands, so they exist.
ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਕਰਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ वेखै विगसै करि वीचारु ॥ vekẖai vigsai kar vīcẖār. He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.
ਨਾਨਕ ਕਥਨਾ ਕਰੜਾ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੩੭॥ नानक कथना करड़ा सारु ॥३७॥ Nānak kathnā karṛā sār. ||37|| O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel! ||37||

I'll admit my understanding Pantheistic point of view on life is rather limited. But to my understanding Associating Waheguru with Pantheism completely is a bit of a stretch.
Then again us trying to contemplate him is foolhardy haha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Panthestic belief is that the Universe with all it's laws, structures, being is god and the concept of a God as in the one who creates,destroys,sustains,communicates is redundant. It's mentioned countless times that Waheguru is able to communicate, The Japji Sahib is said to be given to Guru Nanak by Waheguru, Waheguru even speaks to Guru Gobind Singh Ji before he is born in this world. Perhaps I was a bit rash to suggest "think" is the right word, he's beyond that. But the key concept of Pantheistic is the belief that the universe is god. Our Gurbani tells us this is true but Waheguru is also a completely separate divinity as well.

Pantheistic would be the wrong word as it eradicates the concept of a God which is also separate from the Universe. Waheguru is the universe but the universe isn't waheguru. The Universe can be destroyed, Waheguru can't.

ਸਚ ਖੰਡਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ सच खंडि वसै निरंकारु ॥ Sacẖ kẖand vasai nirankār. In the realm of Truth, the Formless Lord abides.

ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥ करि करि वेखै नदरि निहाल ॥ Kar kar vekẖai naḏar nihāl. Having created the creation, He watches over it. By His Glance of Grace, He bestows happiness.
ਤਿਥੈ ਖੰਡ ਮੰਡਲ ਵਰਭੰਡ ॥ तिथै खंड मंडल वरभंड ॥ Ŧithai kẖand mandal varbẖand. There are planets, solar systems and galaxies.
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਥੈ ਤ ਅੰਤ ਨ ਅੰਤ ॥ जे को कथै त अंत न अंत ॥ Je ko kathai ṯa anṯ na anṯ. If one speaks of them, there is no limit, no end.
ਤਿਥੈ ਲੋਅ ਲੋਅ ਆਕਾਰ ॥ तिथै लोअ लोअ आकार ॥ Ŧithai lo▫a lo▫a ākār. There are worlds upon worlds of His Creation.
ਜਿਵ ਜਿਵ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤਿਵੈ ਤਿਵ ਕਾਰ ॥ जिव जिव हुकमु तिवै तिव कार ॥ Jiv jiv hukam ṯivai ṯiv kār. As He commands, so they exist.
ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਕਰਿ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ वेखै विगसै करि वीचारु ॥ vekẖai vigsai kar vīcẖār. He watches over all, and contemplating the creation, He rejoices.
ਨਾਨਕ ਕਥਨਾ ਕਰੜਾ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੩੭॥ नानक कथना करड़ा सारु ॥३७॥ Nānak kathnā karṛā sār. ||37|| O Nanak, to describe this is as hard as steel! ||37||

I'll admit my understanding Pantheistic point of view on life is rather limited. But to my understanding Associating Waheguru with Pantheism completely is a bit of a stretch.
Then again us trying to contemplate him is foolhardy haha.

Which is why I suggested the word panenthiestic, where Waheguru is the Universe, but beyond it as well.

This is just my interpretation.

Thank you for not attacking me or calling me a nastik or RSS agent, I've had some people start to attack me for sharing ideas.

I disagree with Waheguru "communicating", my idea is not of this man or entity who communicates with people. Sure, Waheguru is pervading within all of us right now, everywhere. We can form that connection with this singular force. We can experience Waheguru, the awesome enlightener.

Does that mean he sits there talking to people and comes up with plans and ideas for them? I mean I doubt Waheguru would behave anything like a human, talking and thinking.

Bani tells us that Waheguru is beyond our understanding, so It is nothing like a human. It is not limited by a brain or a body to be able to "think" and react to stimuli.

Sach khand is not this special place where the "formless" One resides. By definition, the formless One cannot be restricted by residing in a specific place. This means that sach khand must be everywhere Waheguru is. So sach khand can be reached by us anywhere. Sach khand is the state of being when we become one with our creator. When we lose the power of maya, the duality and begin to experience life through the One.

Waheguru is everything, the bacteria, the ant, the human and the elephant or just part of the play. Waheguru is the director, but It is the actor as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Which is why I suggested the word panenthiestic, where Waheguru is the Universe, but beyond it as well.

But Panthiestic don't really accept the concept of a god that's beyond the universe. It's more the universe is god and that's it.

This is just my interpretation.

Nothing wrong it :D

Thank you for not attacking me or calling me a nastik or RSS agent, I've had some people start to attack me for sharing ideas.

If you want I can start now. :)

I disagree with Waheguru "communicating", my idea is not of this man or entity who communicates with people. Sure, Waheguru is pervading within all of us right now, everywhere. We can form that connection with this singular force. We can experience Waheguru, the awesome enlightener.

True, Very true. But what my point was Guru Nanak not only experienced Waheguru but Waheguru assigned him the task of starting our faith. He also gave him Japji Sahib. In his autobiography Guru Gobind Singh Ji even mentions how Waheguru sent him down to extinguish evil. That;s why I believe Waheguru isn't just a force, but a conscious one.Obviously this is me being very simplistic, he's beyond words and I do apologize to waheguru for trying to describe him.

Does that mean he sits there talking to people and comes up with plans and ideas for them? I mean I doubt Waheguru would behave anything like a human, talking and thinking.

Depends how you look at it. Waheguru has limitless forms. Creator,destroyer,sustainer,father,mother. I believe experiencing Waheguru is just the beginning. I may be wrong of course.

Bani tells us that Waheguru is beyond our understanding, so It is nothing like a human. It is not limited by a brain or a body to be able to "think" and react to stimuli.

Completely true. Might I turn your attention to a theory that the universe is a living being? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it.

Sach khand is not this special place where the "formless" One resides. By definition, the formless One cannot be restricted by residing in a specific place. This means that sach khand must be everywhere Waheguru is. So sach khand can be reached by us anywhere. Sach khand is the state of being when we become one with our creator. When we lose the power of maya, the duality and begin to experience life through the One.

also true. Many sikhs believe that the Spiritual realms described in Japji sahib are more like steps. But there is a school of thought that suggests they are actual physical realms as well. Obviously Waheguru is everywhere but at the same time are we really inclined to say what he can't and can do. My own interpretation of that was more like Sach Khand is the heart. Again not saying Waheguru has a heart but like sach Khand is that region where one's duality is abandoned completely and they merge with the lord. As a result that region is where Waheguru "resides" in a sense.

If that makes sense.

Waheguru is everything, the bacteria, the ant, the human and the elephant or just part of the play. Waheguru is the director, but It is the actor as well.

everything is within his Hukham, no one is outside of it :0 agree there completely.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But Panthiestic don't really accept the concept of a god that's beyond the universe. It's more the universe is god and that's it.

Nothing wrong it :D

If you want I can start now. :)

True, Very true. But what my point was Guru Nanak not only experienced Waheguru but Waheguru assigned him the task of starting our faith. He also gave him Japji Sahib. In his autobiography Guru Gobind Singh Ji even mentions how Waheguru sent him down to extinguish evil. That;s why I believe Waheguru isn't just a force, but a conscious one.Obviously this is me being very simplistic, he's beyond words and I do apologize to waheguru for trying to describe him.

Depends how you look at it. Waheguru has limitless forms. Creator,destroyer,sustainer,father,mother. I believe experiencing Waheguru is just the beginning. I may be wrong of course.

Completely true. Might I turn your attention to a theory that the universe is a living being? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it.

also true. Many sikhs believe that the Spiritual realms described in Japji sahib are more like steps. But there is a school of thought that suggests they are actual physical realms as well. Obviously Waheguru is everywhere but at the same time are we really inclined to say what he can't and can do. My own interpretation of that was more like Sach Khand is the heart. Again not saying Waheguru has a heart but like sach Khand is that region where one's duality is abandoned completely and they merge with the lord. As a result that region is where Waheguru "resides" in a sense.

If that makes sense.

everything is within his Hukham, no one is outside of it :0 agree there completely.

Haha, I'm saying panENtheistic, not pantheistic. PanENtheism means Waheguru is the Universe, but is also greater than it. This is what Sikhi (I believe) says about Waheguru, it is the Universe, it is the Hukam, the law, but it is above this form.

It is part of the Hukam. I'm not going to say Waheguru communicated with Guru Nanak Dev Ji to spread Sikhi, rather the Hukam was for Guru Nanak Dev Ji to spread Sikhi. Guru Nanak Dev Ji took it upon themselves to spread the truth in the form of Sikhi.

I don't think Waheguru "gave" Japji Sahib to Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Rather, I think Japji Sahib comes from sach khand, a state where Guru Nanak Dev Ji was one with Waheguru. So it is divinely inspired, but I don't think Waheguru literally wrote it (but everything is Waheguru, so technically, Waheguru did do it).

I reject the idea of prophets, I don't think Waheguru shoots down prophets and messengers to Earth like a post man. Waheguru will enlighten whoever needs to be enlightened.

Karmi apo apni kai nerhe kai door - our actions are own, some are drawn closer, some go further away (according to their actions). If someone attempts to align with Waheguru, they will be enlightened.

Whether the Universe is a living being? Well at one point, the Universe became conscious of itself. When it spawned us humans, it became aware of itself. We are not separate from creation. Waheguru is not separate from us. Perhaps Waheguru wanted beings to be aware of themselves.

Sach khand are those people who realise Waheguru. I agree with you, bani does say there is no difference between Waheguru and the devotee.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haha, I'm saying panENtheistic, not pantheistic. PanENtheism means Waheguru is the Universe, but is also greater than it. This is what Sikhi (I believe) says about Waheguru, it is the Universe, it is the Hukam, the law, but it is above this form.

Ahh right, I misread I do apologize.

It is part of the Hukam. I'm not going to say Waheguru communicated with Guru Nanak Dev Ji to spread Sikhi, rather the Hukam was for Guru Nanak Dev Ji to spread Sikhi. Guru Nanak Dev Ji took it upon themselves to spread the truth in the form of Sikhi.

Guru Nanak disappeared for 3 days, I wonder if you're familiar with this Sakhi as its one of the more well documented ones. During those three days people searched for him and when he returned that's when he proclaimed no hindu and no muslim and also revealed the Japji Sahib. Going from that I would say Waheguru did "communicate" with Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Physically speaking you're right. But the Shabad, the word of god isn't bound by physicality. It comes in many forms, our Gurbani is just one form of it. The Bhagats who Waheguru blessed and then our teachers put their bani into our Guru Granth Sahib all had similar if not the same line of thought as our Guru Sahib. God isn't restricted to one set form in bani.

I reject the idea of prophets, I don't think Waheguru shoots down prophets and messengers to Earth like a post man. Waheguru will enlighten whoever needs to be enlightened.

The Dasam Granth sort of alludes to something against that.

Karmi apo apni kai nerhe kai door - our actions are own, some are drawn closer, some go further away (according to their actions). If someone attempts to align with Waheguru, they will be enlightened.

Very true.

Whether the Universe is a living being? Well at one point, the Universe became conscious of itself. When it spawned us humans, it became aware of itself. We are not separate from creation. Waheguru is not separate from us. Perhaps Waheguru wanted beings to be aware of themselves.

I mean like a living being, thinking, "living" in the sense it has a heart and stuff. Our self awareness is a pretty hot topic. I think our self awareness was something we developed through Evolution. Obviously by Waheguru's kirpa.

Sach khand are those people who realise Waheguru. I agree with you, bani does say there is no difference between Waheguru and the devotee.

Very true also.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahh right, I misread I do apologize.

Guru Nanak disappeared for 3 days, I wonder if you're familiar with this Sakhi as its one of the more well documented ones. During those three days people searched for him and when he returned that's when he proclaimed no hindu and no muslim and also revealed the Japji Sahib. Going from that I would say Waheguru did "communicate" with Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Physically speaking you're right. But the Shabad, the word of god isn't bound by physicality. It comes in many forms, our Gurbani is just one form of it. The Bhagats who Waheguru blessed and then our teachers put their bani into our Guru Granth Sahib all had similar if not the same line of thought as our Guru Sahib. God isn't restricted to one set form in bani.

The Dasam Granth sort of alludes to something against that.

Very true.

I mean like a living being, thinking, "living" in the sense it has a heart and stuff. Our self awareness is a pretty hot topic. I think our self awareness was something we developed through Evolution. Obviously by Waheguru's kirpa.

Very true also.

Ahh right, I misread I do apologize.

Guru Nanak disappeared for 3 days, I wonder if you're familiar with this Sakhi as its one of the more well documented ones. During those three days people searched for him and when he returned that's when he proclaimed no hindu and no muslim and also revealed the Japji Sahib. Going from that I would say Waheguru did "communicate" with Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Physically speaking you're right. But the Shabad, the word of god isn't bound by physicality. It comes in many forms, our Gurbani is just one form of it. The Bhagats who Waheguru blessed and then our teachers put their bani into our Guru Granth Sahib all had similar if not the same line of thought as our Guru Sahib. God isn't restricted to one set form in bani.

The Dasam Granth sort of alludes to something against that.

Very true.

I mean like a living being, thinking, "living" in the sense it has a heart and stuff. Our self awareness is a pretty hot topic. I think our self awareness was something we developed through Evolution. Obviously by Waheguru's kirpa.

Very true also.

Our Gurus told us to respect nature, and the animals. Also, Albert Enstine was a Pantheistic too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Jacfsing2

Our Gurus told us to respect nature, and the animals. Also, Albert Enstine was a Pantheistic too.

They (Satguru) respected nature as they new their was one Vaheguru who was truly omnipresent. Pantheism is the idea that everyone is their own God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use