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Basics Of Sikhi - Anand Karaj (Addressing The Controversy)


Singh559
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You will probably believe Amrit isn't necessary for Sikhs. You'll say, "just be a good person".

Not at all. I passionately believe in the Khalsa Panth. I believe Amritdhari numbers will only increase via more Sikhs.

I keep my kes, I don't drink and I don't eat meat so I am not a supporter of Hundal.

Thus please do not put words into my mouth that I haven't said.

Jacfsing2 Ji you know that 99.9% of Americans are non-Sikhs.

Do you realistically think that all the Sikhs of your generation in your state will all marry Sikh spouses?

If you do believe that a high percentage of Sikhs in America are likely to marry someone from the 99.9% majority, does it not make sense to you that we accept the ever increasing reality that we see increasing year after year and look to engage, interact and educate the couples (and indeed all couples) so that the children of all such marriages are raised as Sikhs and feel part of the Sikh Panth.

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"Ranjeet Ji isn't blocking a Sikh who wishes to marry by Anand Karaj a de facto alienation of that person and their future generations of children away from Sikhi?

I myself wholeheartedly support the ejection of the Hindu Mahants by the Akali Singh Sabha Lehar so I don't agree with your analogy being relevant to the point. As the Hindu Mahants that worked for the British actively excluded people from entering Gurdwara's whereas the Akali Singh Lehar freed entry to all people in tandem with everything Sikhi stands for.

If around 20% of marriages denied an Anand Karaj each generation won't lead to our Panth's demographic decline in the long term then I don't know what will."

DTF

I do not agree with your premise. We need to uphold the standards here and not bend to the whims of a few people.

If we accommodate too much all you will be doing is creating a far more potent problem greater than some hypothetical demographic scenario.

It would be interesting to see what the percentage of Sikhs who marry out would be.

But there needs to be far more education of what the Anand Karaj is and what has happened in Southall has opened a lot of people of what Anand Karaj entails.

I place more emphasis to the sanctity of our Maharaj than to some perceived reduction in Sikh population. If those people decide to leave Sikhi because they did not want to follow the rules then I wish them well in the future.

From a Sikh perspective, they would be self-willed Manmukh.

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Sikhi is shown via our actions which align with Gurmat brother. It is not an ethnic birthright.

Sikhi is a universal faith for all brother. Regardless of the race or religion they were born into.

Let's say you have a 1000 ml bottle of water which is losing 200ml of water every hour (akin to 20% marrying those whose both parents are not Sikhs) then after a few generations the bottle of water will be empty. We cannot stop such marriages taking place when Sikhs are just over a 1% minority in Canada, a 0.7% minority in the UK and a 0.1% minority in the USA. The only way Sikhi can flourish in the Diaspora is by accepting these inevitable marriages and then ensuring that via positive engagement from Gurdwara staff and more importantly Sangat we ensure that the children of such marriages comprise new Sikhs of the future.

It is also not for you to decide who is a Sikh and who isn't. That is surely not your 'birthright' either.

Sorry, I beg to differ. IMHO you're mistaken. There are a sizable number of Sikhs living in Asia ie Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong....their number rarely make it above 0.5%. Yet, there are 3rd generation Sikhs largely who did not have to have marriage with other faiths in order to maintain their numbers. Going by your logic, they should have 'died out' by now. However I have seen many inter race marriages as well. They're usually between a Sikh and a Buddhist or Christian and usually one party converts or they don't have anad karaj ceremony.

Lets go by your logic. In the name of inclusiveness, why don't we allow alcohol, meat in our langar halls? Maybe even Gay marriage? Maybe some nice disco music with a dance floor? Think about how 'inclusive' that would be. :p

When an organization is willing to break it's own principles, it is the beginning of the end of that organization. Take the Boy Scout Association of America. They're now allowing gay instructors. People are leaving by large numbers and soon it will over for them. You're overlooking the fact that IMHO that the majority of the 'panth' will not accept this and there will be a split among Sikhs.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all condone slavery. Should we follow suit as we are doing in this instance?

Please prove this and provide scripture that backs your assertion.

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You misunderstood my point DTF. The Southall Gurdwara President Mr Sumra, Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal etc are the Terrorists for they are trying to intimidate Sikhs into standing in front Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and blatantly lying. Their intimidation / terrorism modus operandi is to de-humanise the Sikhs by calling them names such as "thugs" and "taliban". Such a tactic is the very definition of terrorism. Thus, Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal are by very definition terrorists, and you are supporting terrorists.

I agree that those labelling the protestors as terrorists perhaps need to study the atrocities of Islamic State or al Qeada a bit more.

It is not human beings that can decide whether a person is lying in front of Maharaj. Only Akaal Purakh can really know the Truth.

I don't support Hundal or Friction ideologically in any way so lol on your humourous reference to me supporting terrorists.

"Ranjeet Ji isn't blocking a Sikh who wishes to marry by Anand Karaj a de facto alienation of that person and their future generations of children away from Sikhi?

I myself wholeheartedly support the ejection of the Hindu Mahants by the Akali Singh Sabha Lehar so I don't agree with your analogy being relevant to the point. As the Hindu Mahants that worked for the British actively excluded people from entering Gurdwara's whereas the Akali Singh Lehar freed entry to all people in tandem with everything Sikhi stands for.

If around 20% of marriages denied an Anand Karaj each generation won't lead to our Panth's demographic decline in the long term then I don't know what will."

DTF

I do not agree with your premise. We need to uphold the standards here and not bend to the whims of a few people.

Ranjeet Ji i don't think it is about bending to the whims of a few but rather a case of dealing with an ever growing reality (as a consequence of assimilation over time) in the most practical way possible.

Whatever the percentage marrying across backgrounds today you can be pretty sure that the percentage will increase year after the longer that time goes on - I am sure we agree on that. We have seen the demographic projections for what it has done and is doing to the Jewish community in America. Indeed all microscopic minorities end up being assimilated if they do not replenish or increase their population via parchar. Anand Karaj is an ideal opportunity to re-integrate people back into or newly into the Panth.

By denying a genuine couple the blessing of Maharaj it is us ourselves who are desecrating the sanctity of Jagat Guru, Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Increasing numbers of the Sikh Panth is fundamental to ensuring that Khalsa Raj occurs globally. It won't occur so long as only 1 in 300 people globally are Sikhs and we seek to estrange first sehajdhari Sikhs and now those that marry others from a different background in countries where 99 to 99.9% of the surrounding population are non Sikhs.

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DTF,

IMHO, you're basically asking for Sikhism to compromise on it's principles all in the name of inclusiveness and by doing so you're going to turn it into nothing more then a social club. If it becomes nothing more then a social club, why bother going? Just walk down to your local pub, right?

People join an organization because they 'believe' in something. If you're willing to compromise on your principles, then that 'belief' will wane and people will start leaving. This is just my take.

As for Sikh numbers disappearing. Let it be. Sikhism was not created so that Punjabis can flourish in numbers. LOL! You got it wrong. It's strictly for your spiritual journey, nothing more.

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It is also not for you to decide who is a Sikh and who isn't. That is surely not your 'birthright' either.

Sorry, I beg to differ. IMHO you're mistaken. There are a sizable number of Sikhs living in Asia ie Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong....their number rarely make it above 0.5%.

Quantavius Ji i think the puratan definition of who is a Sikh (one who bows down before Maharaj) is correct. But if you wish to exclude those that bow down before Maharaj or those that are sehajdhari, I would ask you how does that benefit the Sikh Panth going forward?

Whilst arranged marriages were the norm in the early 20th century, the Sikh community as a small minority has managed to maintain numbers in the ASEAN bloc nations. However, brother if you are not aware that intermarriage is increasing even in those Asian countries as a result of our low numbers increasing that likelihood, then I sincerely advise that you speak to family members you might have there and ask them. In Malaysia and Singapore and Thailand the percentages intermarrying are begining to become significant and we should use such marriages to project Sikhi into Chinese and Tamil and other communities. Particularly since one of the Panj Piare was a Dravidian (yet we consistently fail to educate others of such facts).

The alcohol and meat point holds no water as it directly contradicts Gurmat. We have the ultimate role model of Gurmat, Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj exemplifying that a spouse who bows down before Ik Onkar (or Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji nowadays) becomes a new Sikh should they be sincere in so doing and Sangat work to educate them on the Truth of Sikhi and how collectively we can work for the betterment of society globally.

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Quantavius Ji i think the puratan definition of who is a Sikh (one who bows down before Maharaj) is correct. But if you wish to exclude those that bow down before Maharaj or those that are sehajdhari, I would ask you how does that benefit the Sikh Panth going forward?

I always thought you had to take amrit to become a Sikh? So, a Christian who refuses to leave his religion and bows down to Guruji Maharaj is now a Sikh? I've never heard this. BTW I'm a 'mona'.

Whilst arranged marriages were the norm in the early 20th century, the Sikh community as a small minority has managed to maintain numbers in the ASEAN bloc nations. However, brother if you are not aware that intermarriage is increasing even in those Asian countries as a result of our low numbers increasing that likelihood, then I sincerely advise that you speak to family members you might have there and ask them. In Malaysia and Singapore and Thailand the percentages intermarrying are begining to become significant and we should use such marriages to project Sikhi into Chinese and Tamil and other communities. Particularly since one of the Panj Piare was a Dravidian (yet we consistently fail to educate others of such facts).

Sorry but I disagree. There may be many inter race marriages but the numbers are not that significant. If you disagree, please provide hard numbers and cite your source. You obviously have never traveled to these countries.

Nobody is a pure Dravidian or Aryan from the Indian subcontinent. We're all mutts.

The alcohol and meat point holds no water as it directly contradicts Gurmat. We have the ultimate role model of Gurmat, Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj exemplifying that a spouse who bows down before Ik Onkar (or Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji nowadays) becomes a new Sikhs should they be sincere in so doing and Sangat work to educate them on the Truth of Sikhi and how collectively we can work for the betterment of society globally.

I'm no Sikh scholar but isn't a Non Sikh not wanting to take amrit and wanting to get married with a Sikh in a Gurdwara contradicts Gurmat as well? Did not Guru Nanak Dev Ji initiate Sikhs with 'charan phul' amrit?

I'm not aware that by simply bowing to Guruji Maharaj, one becomes a Sikh. Please tell me where is this stated.

From SikhiWiki

Amrit Sanskar or Amrit Sanchar or the Amrit ceremony is the Sikh ceremony of initiation or baptism. This practice has been in existence since the times of Guru Nanak Dev (1469 - 1539). During that time-period, this ceremony was known as Charan Amritor Charan Phul or the Pag Pahul, the words Charan and Pag both signifying the foot of the teacher. During that time-period, the neophytes poured water over Guru's toe to be initiated into the fold. When the Guru was not present, the masands or the local sangat leaders officiated. A reference to initiation by Charan Amrit occurs in Bhai Gurdas, Varan, I.23, born 12 years after the passing away of Guru Nanak. The water was poured on Guru's toe and then the devotees would drink it and seek blessings of the Guru. The Guru would guide the Sikhs about the Sikh teachings and instruct them to adopt them as a way of life.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Amrit_Sanchar

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DTF,

IMHO, you're basically asking for Sikhism to compromise on it's principles all in the name of inclusiveness and by doing so you're going to turn it into nothing more then a social club. If it becomes nothing more then a social club, why bother going? Just walk down to your local pub, right?

People join an organization because they 'believe' in something. If you're willing to compromise on your principles, then that 'belief' will wane and people will start leaving. This is just my take.

As for Sikh numbers disappearing. Let it be.

LOL! You got it wrong. It's strictly for your spiritual journey, nothing more.

Hardly so Quantavius Ji. I strongly believe we need to increase Sikh numbers from present levels to hundreds of millions so that Sikhi can have a direct positive impact on billions of people. If we accept sehajdhari Sikhs as equals that does not prevent the Khalsa Panth from remaining niyara. If we permit those that wish to blessed by Anand Karaj to be so, I believe Sikhi can strengthen demographically instead of weaken.

Sikhi is not a social club or accident of birth. I passionately believe the primary raison d'etre behind Sikhi is Sarbat da Bhala globally so that no child is starving from malnutrition, nobody is subjected to Genocide, all children get access to clean water and education and that we build a just society for all globally (Khalsa Raj). That will never happen so long as we de facto seek to decrease Sikh numbers. Sikhi is amazing. It is the Truth. It is our duty that this Truth is projected worldwide for the betterment of all humanity rather than restricted to as few people as possible who happen to be born into a 0.3% minority globally.

If you believe Sikhi is strictly an individual spiritual journey then why worry about who has an Anand Karaj?

The duty of all Sikhs is to help those less fortunate. But whilst we remain small in numbers our ability to help globally is limited.

I passionately believe the Khalsa Panth should be a global fauj preventing Genocides, providing relief after natural disasters, combatting Ebola or child slavery or global illiteracy. But due to our low numbers we can barely help our own in Punjab and it sincerely pains me that via the protest and blocking of Anand Karaj's such a pristine Truth is becoming irrelevant to more and more young people's lives instead of spreading like wildfire as Sikhi should.

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Guest Jacfsing2

Not at all. I passionately believe in the Khalsa Panth. I believe Amritdhari numbers will only increase via more Sikhs.

I keep my kes, I don't drink and I don't eat meat so I am not a supporter of Hundal.

Thus please do not put words into my mouth that I haven't said.

Jacfsing2 Ji you know that 99.9% of Americans are non-Sikhs.

Do you realistically think that all the Sikhs of your generation in your state will all marry Sikh spouses?

If you do believe that a high percentage of Sikhs in America are likely to marry someone from the 99.9% majority, does it not make sense to you that we accept the ever increasing reality that we see increasing year after year and look to engage, interact and educate the couples (and indeed all couples) so that the children of all such marriages are raised as Sikhs and feel part of the Sikh Panth.

Sikhs only come through Guru Sahib himself. Your not separating people that call themselves Sikhs and those who are Gurmukhs. I don't care what manmukhs do as long as they don't disgrace the Satguru and his Hukam.
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