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Basics Of Sikhi - Anand Karaj (Addressing The Controversy)


Singh559
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Hardly so Quantavius Ji. I strongly believe we need to increase Sikh numbers from present levels to hundreds of millions so that Sikhi can have a direct positive impact on billions of people. If we accept sehajdhari Sikhs as equals that does not prevent the Khalsa Panth from remaining niyara. If we permit those that wish to blessed by Anand Karaj to be so, I believe Sikhi can strengthen demographically instead of weaken.

By compromising it's principles you're weakening it. Sikhism then becomes meaningless.

Sikhi is not a social club or accident of birth. I passionately believe the primary raison d'etre behind Sikhi is Sarbat da Bhala globally so that no child is starving from malnutrition, nobody is subjected to Genocide, all children get access to clean water and education and that we build a just society for all globally (Khalsa Raj). That will never happen so long as we de facto seek to decrease Sikh numbers. Sikhi is amazing. It is the Truth. It is our duty that this Truth is projected worldwide for the betterment of all humanity rather than restricted to as few people as possible who happen to be born into a 0.3% minority globally.

IMHO, by compromising on it's principles, you are effectively turning it into a social club. IMHO Sikhism was not created so that we can boast large numbers. That is not it's purpose. As for wanting to spread Sikhism through marriage, how does it happen when a Non Sikh refuses to convert wants to marry a Sikh in a Gurdwara? Secondly, if you're willing to compromise, even the would be convert would have no respect for you or your religion, just my take.

If Sikhi is an strictly an individual spiritual journey then why worry about who has an Anand Karaj.

IMHO,

Because that spiritual journey starts or ignited in a Gurdwara, thats why. And that Gurdwara should not compromise on it's principles.

The duty of all Sikhs is to help those less fortunate. But whilst we remain small in numbers our ability to help globally is limited.

I passionately believe the Khalsa Panth should be a global fauj preventing Genocides, providing relief after natural disasters, combatting Ebola or chil slavery or global illiteracy. But due to our low numbers we can barely help our own in Punjab and it sincerely pains me that via the protest and blocking of Anand Karaj's such a pristine Truth is becoming irrelevant to more and more young people's lives instead of spreading like wildfire as Sikhi should.

And what has this got to do with Non Sikhs wanting to marry Sikhs in a Gurdwara?

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I always thought you had to take amrit to become a Sikh? So, a Christian who refuses to leave his religion and bows down to Guruji Maharaj is now a Sikh? I've never heard this. BTW I'm a 'mona'.

Sorry but I disagree. There may be many inter race marriages but the numbers are not that significant. If you disagree, please provide hard numbers and cite your source. You obviously have never traveled to these countries.

Nobody is a pure Dravidian or Aryan from the Indian subcontinent. We're all mutts.

I'm no Sikh scholar but isn't a Non Sikh not wanting to take amrit and wanting to get married with a Sikh in a Gurdwara contradicts Gurmat as well? Did not Guru Nana Dev Ji initiate Sikhs with 'charan phul' amrit?

Brother I believe that all sehajdhari's are Sikhs if they accept Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj as the embodiment of Truth.

I don't have statistics for intermarriage in ASEAN bloc nations but from memory I do recall that Malaysia has the highest percentage of Sikhs there at around 0.3% ... ie 99.7% of the population are non-Sikhs. If you foresee that all marriages in Malaysia and other countries in this century will be Sikhs marrying those of Sikh parentage in the face of such overwheming statistics then I believe you are underestimating the effects of globalisation and assimilation upon the Sikh Diaspora as the arranged marriage model becomes a relic of history.

The point was not that one of our Panj Piare was of pure Dravidian ancestry but more so that we fail to educate the significant Tamil population in countries like Malaysia and Singapore of such facts and then complain about girls marrying Hindu's (when if we educate the said so-called Hindu's about Sikhi logically they ought to orientate towards the undeniable Truth of Sikhi).

Do you really think that Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj dribbled water over their toes that Mata Sulakhani Ji drank at the point of their marriage?

Charan pahul is academically contested as the method of administering Amrit prior to 1699 (as the water over toes thing is pure Hinduism).

Why is it so hard to believe that Mata Sulakhani Ji became Sikh by virtue of bowing down before Shabad Guru (Ik Onkar)?

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Sikhs only come through Guru Sahib himself. Your not separating people that call themselves Sikhs and those who are Gurmukhs.

I don't care what manmukhs do as long as they don't disgrace the Satguru and his Hukam.

Yes i believe that Amritdhari, Kesdhari and Sehajdhari are all members of the Sikh Panth.

We all bow down to Maharaj. That alone defines us all as members of the Sikh Panth (though not all Gurmukhs).

DTF, Isn't there one of guru gobind singh jees 52 hukamnamas that sikh should marry sikh.

Agreed Bhai Sahib and that is exactly what occurs when an erstwhile non-Sikh becomes a new Sikh by bowing down before Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj during Anand Karaj (if they do so in sincerity without aims to convert the Sikh spouse after marriage).

By compromising it's principles you're weakening it. Sikhism then becomes meaningless.

IMHO, by compromising on it's principles, you are effectively turning it into a social club. IMHO Sikhism was not created so that we can boast large numbers. That is not it's purpose. As for wanting to spread Sikhism through marriage, how does it happen when a Non Sikh refuses to convert wants to marry a Sikh in a Gurdwara? Secondly, if you're willing to compromise, even the would be convert would have no respect for you or your religion, just my take.

IMHO,

Because that spiritual journey starts or ignited in a Gurdwara, thats why. And that Gurdwara should not compromise on it's principles.

And what has this got to do with Non Sikhs wanting to marry Sikhs in a Gurdwara?

I agree with you. By making Anand Karaj something only those supposedly born into Sikh families can partake in I believe we are veering from the principles of Gurmat (Sikhi).

If numbers are not relevant then why do you worry as to who marries who in an Anand Karaj?

If Sikh were a 99.7% majority in India instead of a 1.7% minority do you think any Indian government would have attacked Sri Darbar Sahib?

Had we been more significant than only 13% of Punjabi's in 1947 do you think we would have suffered the Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs?

The estrangement and alienation of Sikhs and their future generations away from Sikhi is central to what the Panth can achieve globally. The more Sikhs there are the more we can achieve for the global good. The less Sikhs there are the more vulnerable a minority we become.

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I don't have statistics for intermarriage in ASEAN bloc nations but I do not that Malaysia has the highest percentage of Sikhs there at around 0.3% ie 99.7% of the population are non-Sikhs. If you foresee that all marriages in this century will be Sikhs marrying those of Sikh parentage then I believe you are underestimating the effects of globalisation and assimilation upon Diaspora as the arranged marriage model become a relic of history.

The Sikhs living in Malaysia and all neighboring asian countries are already mostly 3rd generation or 4th. If what you say is true, it should have happened by now. So why don't you provide proof to your assertion? Why don't you provide census data that confirms this? You don't have statistics but that is surely not stopping you from making tall claims.

Truth is not ascertained to what you and i 'believe' in. If I believe the moon is made out of cheese, will this make it true?

The point was not that one of our Panj Piare was of pure Dravidian ancestry but more so that we fail to educate the significant Tamil population in countries like Malaysia and Singapore and then complain about girls marrying Hindu's (when if we educate the said so-called Hindu's about Sikhi logically they ought to orientate towards Sikhi).

Nobody is stopping you from spreading the teachings of Sikhism. However IMHO our Gurdwara should not have to compromise on it's principles. Do you think a person will have respect for you if you're willing to compromise your principles?

Do you really think that Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj dribbled water over their toes that Mata Sulakhani Ji drank?

Charan pahul is academically contested as the method of administering Amrit prior to 1699 (as the water over toes thing is pure Hinduism).

Why is it so hard to believe that Mata Sulakhani Ji became Sikh by virtue of bowing down before Shabad Guru (Ik Onkar).

That is what my Sikh source states and I've read this elsewhere. I believe it's based on Sakhias. I don;t know what to believe as I'm still learning.

If by simply bowing in front of Guruji makes one a Sikh, what about all those Muslims in ancient times who bowed to Guruji in the Gurdwara? Did they becomes Sikhs after that?

If you disagree, why don't you provide proof to your counter argument? You're making a lot of claims but you're providing no proof at all.

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The Sikhs living in Malaysia and all neighboring asian countries are already mostly 3rd generation or 4th.

If you disagree, why don't you provide proof to your counter argument?

As I already explained to you brother, the 3rd or so generations have remained broadly in tact so long as arranged marriages were the norm within our community. If you believe that these Malaysian Sikhs will magically avoid increasing rates of intermarriage with a 99.7% majority in this century then I respectfully believe you are mistaken.

I don't believe Gurmat is being compromised by two people who will marry anyway being allowed an Anand Karaj and thus encouraged to raise their children as Sikhs rather than ensuring that they will not by blocking them from Anand Karaj.

Yes those former Muslims that bowed down before Guru Sahib (instead of to Mecca) did indeed become new Sikhs.

The proof is pretty obvious Quantavius Ji. If you have a bottle of Coca-Cola that is losing some liquid every day (as Sikhs every day choose to marry partners of an erstwhile non-Sikh background) then the bottle will be 50% full as time progresses if we continue to alienate and estrange such couples their future generations away from Sikhi.

Think about it logically brother. Think of the Amish community that already do exactly what you advocate. Unlike Sikhs their fertility rate is above replacement level. How will the Sikh Panth with a low fetility rate and losing adherents blocked from Anand Karaj flourish demographically if we do not do everything we can to accept and encourage new blood into the Panth?

It's a no brainer to me.

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Yes i believe that Amritdhari, Kesdhari and Sehajdhari are all members of the Sikh Panth.

We all bow down to Maharaj. That alone defines us all as members of the Sikh Panth (though not all Gurmukhs).

Agreed Bhai Sahib and that is exactly what occurs when an erstwhile non-Sikh becomes a new Sikh by bowing down before Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj during Anand Karaj (if they do so in sincerity without aims to convert the Sikh spouse after marriage).

I agree with you. By making Anand Karaj something only those supposedly born into Sikh families can partake in I believe we are veering from the principles of Gurmat (Sikhi).

I'm sorry but this not what I learnt. I learnt that you have to take amrit in order to be a Sikh. I don;t think anybody is stopping a Non Sikh having Anand Karaj marriage so long they convert.

If numbers are not relevant then why do you worry as to who marries who in an Anand Karaj?

I have already answered this question. I'm not 'worried', I'm concerned that our principles are being compromised.

If Sikh were a 99.7% majority in India instead of a 1.7% minority do you think any Indian government would have attacked Sri Darbar Sahib?

Had we been more significant than only 13% of Punjabi's in 1947 do you think we would have suffered the Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs?

The estrangement and alienation of Sikhs and their future generations away from Sikhi is central to what the Panth can achieve globally. The more Sikhs there are the more we can achieve for the global good. The less Sikhs there are the more vulnerable a minority we become.

IMHO, no use having large numbers when you're willing to compromise your principles. If we follow your way, Sikhism would be severely weakened or maybe even destroyed. Today it's Non Sikh being allowed Anand Karaj marriage, tomorrow it would be gay marriage, then meat in langar hall....etc, etc and finally Sikhism would not be recognizable anymore. But hey, we got the numbers! LOL! More then likely the 'panth' will break up to several smaller sects.

If numbers guarantees you a win, how come N. India with such huge number of Hindus were under Muslim rule for centuries? And I believe the Muslims were a much smaller number compared to the Hindus. How does tiny Israel are able to fight and win with more then one Arab country attacking it? How did a smaller number of Japanese invade the larger China during World War 2 and the rest of Asia?

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As I already explained to you brother, the 3rd or so generations have remained broadly in tact so long as arranged marriages were the norm within our community. If you believe that these Malaysian Sikhs will magically avoid increasing rates of intermarriage with a 99.7% majority in this century then I respectfully believe you are mistaken.

That is merely your belief nothing more. You can believe that the moon will some day fall on Earth, that does not make it true.

Secondly, Why must Sikhs increase in numbers? Why is this so and where is this mentioned as a requirement?

I don't believe Gurmat is being compromised by two people who will marry anyway being allowed an Anand Karaj and thus encouraged to raise their children as Sikhs rather than ensuring that they will not by blocking them from Anand Karaj.

Then you need to convince yourself and all other Sikhs with scripture and not your 'beliefs' of increasing population of Sikh numbers. As for them raising their kids as Sikhs, if they were not willing to convert at the time of the wedding, what makes you believe that they will raise their kids as Sikhs? You're simply fooling yourself.

Yes those former Muslims that bowed down before Guru Sahib (instead of to Mecca) did indeed become new Sikhs.

I don't think so. Not gonna argue over this as I'm no Sikh scholar but this is the first time I'm hearing this. I believe Muslims like Pir Buddhu Shah remained a Muslim till death.

The proof is pretty obvious Quantavius Ji. If you have a bottle of Coca-Cola that is losing some liquid every day (as Sikhs every day choose to marry partners of an erstwhile non-Sikh background) then the bottle will be 50% full as time progresses if we continue to alienate and estrange such couples their future generations away from Sikhi.

Again the water bottle theory. LOL!!!!!!!!! Sorry but your 'theory' is flawed. By compromising your principles, you are basically 'smashing' the coca cola bottle into several smaller pieces. Once you compromise, Sikhism becomes meaningless and numbers will dwindle OR there will be a split.

Think about it logically brother. Think of the Amish community that already do exactly what you advocate. Unlike Sikhs their fertility rate is above replacement level. How will the Sikh Panth with a low fetility rate and losing adherents blocked from Anand Karaj flourish demographically if we do not do everything we can to accept and encourage new blood into the Panth?

It's a no brainer to me.

You need to take your own advice brother and think logically too. There is no provision in Sikhism to increase our numbers. There is no edict that says 'go forth and multiply'. LOL! We are not here to increase and boast our numbers. This is not our purpose. IMHO, to do so is to engross one self in this physical world and by doing that you impede your own spiritual progress.

IMHO, one day we will all die and all this nonsense about increasing numbers so that we can be some kinda 'force to be reckoned with' is all nonsense.

You're not looking at the larger picture.

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I'm sorry but this not what I learnt. I learnt that you have to take amrit in order to be a Sikh.

D = That's the modern narrative that has been pimped to us by our Hindutva opponents. Who gains by definining sehajdhari's as non-Sikhs? Our Hindutva opponents. Because that way they get to define Sikhs as a permanent microscopic minority that deserves no democratic voice.

I don't think anybody is stopping a Non Sikh having Anand Karaj marriage so long they convert.

D = I agree with you. Explanation of what Sikhi stands for is vital. Most normal human beings except for the most aggressive males following proselytising Abrahamic faiths are natural sehajdhari Sikhs especially if they bow down before Maharaj recognising the importance of gender equality as imparted via Anand Karaj.

IMHO, no use having large numbers when you're willing to compromise your principles. If we follow your way, Sikhism would be severely weakened or maybe even destroyed.

D = Sikhi will never be destroyed. Truth is eternal. But there's a sensible way to progress our Panth going forward and a self-defeating way. Decreasing our numbers via such protests and the alienation of the couples and their future generations of children away from Sikhi and into the non-Sikh fold is not the way to go in my opinion. When two people have decided to marry we should do our best to encourage them as fellow members of Gurdwara Sangat.

then meat in langar hall.

D = We covered this before that meat in the langar hall contradicts Gurmat. I repeat that the Anand Karaj protestors need to carefully consider whether they would have had the himmat to protest the marriage of Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Majaraj and many of our bravest shaheeds?

...etc, etc and finally Sikhism would not be recognizable anymore. But hey, we got the numbers! LOL! More then likely the 'panth' will break up to several smaller sects.

D = How does two people being blessed with an Anand Karaj stop you from becoming an Amritdhari Gursikh? If you think numbers are irrelevant ask yourself if we would have been defeated in 1849, 1947 and 1984 if we had one hundred fold the numbers? There are plenty of sects already.

If numbers guarantees you a win, how come N. India with such huge number of Hindus were under Muslim rule for centuries? And I believe the Muslims were a much smaller number compared to the Hindus. How does tiny Israel are able to fight and win with more then one Arab country attacking it? How did a smaller number of Japanese invade the larger China during World War 2 and the rest of Asia?

D = Do Muslims rule India now? Without American backing do you believe Israel could have held on to the Gaza strip for the time it did? Do you think Japan can rule China now? In the modern world, numbers count. If we blindly think that we can ignore the fact that we are a 0.3% minority globally then we do so at our peril. 1947 and 1984 should have taught us the importance of growing our numbers by now.

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I'm sorry but this not what I learnt. I learnt that you have to take amrit in order to be a Sikh.

D = That's the modern narrative that has been pimped to us by our Hindutva opponents. Who gains by definining sehajdhari's as non-Sikhs? Our Hindutva opponents. Because that way they get to define Sikhs as a permanent microscopic minority that deserves no democratic voice.

You can believe whatever you want brother, I'm not going to stop. To each his own. Whatever floats your boat.

IMHO, no use having large numbers when you're willing to compromise your principles. If we follow your way, Sikhism would be severely weakened or maybe even destroyed.

D = Sikhi will never be destroyed. Truth is eternal. But there's a sensible way to progress our Panth going forward and a self-defeating way. Decreasing our numbers via such protests and the alienation of the couples and their future generations of children away from Sikhi and into the non-Sikh fold is not the way to go in my opinion. When two people have decided to marry we should do our best to encourage them as fellow members of Gurdwara Sangat.

Your ideas of 'sensibility' is basically compromising your principles nothing more.

then meat in langar hall.

D = We covered this before that meat in the langar hall contradicts Gurmat. I repeat that the Anand Karaj protestors need to carefully consider whether they would have had the himmat to protest the marriage of Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Majarajs and many of our bravest shaheeds?

And you still don't get it. Today you come up with some bright idea of change. Tomorrow someone just like you will come up with another. Then they will claim it could be done earlier, why not now too.

...etc, etc and finally Sikhism would not be recognizable anymore. But hey, we got the numbers! LOL! More then likely the 'panth' will break up to several smaller sects.

D = How does two people being blessed with an Anand Karaj stop you from becoming an Amritdhari Gursikh? If you think numbers are irrelevant ask yourself if we would have been defeated in 1849, 1947 and 1984 if we had one hundred fold the numbers? There are plenty of sects already.

How does some people eating a bucket of KFC in the langar hall stop you from becoming an Amritdhari Gursikh?

D = Do Muslims rule India now? Without American backing do you believe Israel could have held on to the Gaza strip for the time it did? Do you think Japan can rule China now? In the modern world, numbers count. If we blindly think that we can ignore the fact that we are a 0.3% minority globally then we do so at our peril. 1947 and 1984 should have taught us the importance of growing our numbers by now.

Nope, but they did. How did they do it? Thats the point. It's irrelevant how Israel wins, at the end of the day, they do. Thats all that matters. It's irrelevant if Japan can or cannot rule China today. That fact that Japan was able to defeat China and the rest of Asia blows a king sized hole in your theory of number winning in a fight.

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Secondly, Why must Sikhs increase in numbers? Why is this so and where is this mentioned as a requirement?

D = Sikhs can remain the small minority we are if you so wish. But then it's pretty futile to then complain of discrimination by bigger populations.

D = I sincerely believe that the vast majority who are humble enough to be from a former non-Sikh background but are willing to bow down before Maharaj and take on board the information about Sikhi it is our duty to provide can prove to be good Sikhs in the future.

I don't think so. Not gonna argue over this as I'm no Sikh scholar but this is the first time I'm hearing this. I believe Muslims like Pir Buddhu Shah remained a Muslim till death.

D = How could Pir Buddu Shah be wrongfully be considered a Muslim when he bowed down before Guru Sahib instead of towards Mecca. A Muslim is not allowed to bow before Guru Sahib but given that the Quran advocates the beating of women, the inferiority of women and the rape of non-Muslim women we obviously need to ensure that males of aggressively conversionary Abrahamic faiths affirm that they disavow the lies of the Quran, Book of Mormon, Torah etc.

Again the water bottle theory. LOL!!!!!!!!! Once you compromise, Sikhism becomes meaningless and numbers will dwindle OR there will be a split.

D = That's your opinion. I disagree with you and I've explained why.

You need to take your own advice brother and think logically too. There is no provision in Sikhism to increase our numbers. There is no edict that says 'go forth and multiply'. LOL! We are not here to increase and boast our numbers. This is not our purpose. IMHO, to do so is to engross one self in this physical world and by doing that you impede your own spiritual progress.

D = Well if that's the case then don't complain when the democratic majority rides roughshod over your rights. Because in the real world numbers count. If it's all about individual spirituality rather than what we Sikhs can achieve for Sarbat da Bhala globally then why worry about two people who wish to have an Anand Karaj?

IMHO, one day we will all die and all this nonsense about increasing numbers so that we can be some kinda 'force to be reckoned with' is all nonsense.

D = Agreed me and you will die one day. But it's not about being something in history books but for Sikhi and Sikhs to improve the world around us for the good of all (Sarbat da Bhala)

You're not looking at the larger picture.

D = That's exactly what I believe those protesting and blocking such Anand Karaj's are failing to do

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