Basics Of Sikhi - Anand Karaj (Addressing The Controversy)

[Quantavius]

Why must education be through Anand Karaj?

D = I'm saying that is a good time to ensure it. Obviously education should begin as children

Sorry but one does not get married in order to learn about a religion. That is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. Why don't the 'good time' be before marriage? Why after marriage? Who decides when is this 'good time'?

Why can't one learn without getting married?

D = Of course people can learn without being married. But when a couple resolve to marry should we educate them or push them away from Sikhi?

You can't push away someone who never accepted Sikhi in the first place. If you truly accepted Sikhi, you would respect the Gurdwara and not try circumvent Gurmat by getting married with a Non Sikh in the Gurdwara. It's that simple. If you can't even respect that, you will NEVER accept Sikhi in the future. Like I said earlier, lots of assumptions and hyperbole with zero evidence to back anything.

If the Non Sikh is unwilling to convert at the time of the marriage, what makes you think they will convert later?

D= There is no guarantee of course but in the case of sincere spouses they are accepting themselves to be sehajdhari Sikhs at the least by virtue of prostrating down in humility before Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. So why force them to get married at a Church or Mandir and raise their kids most likely as Christians or Hindu's as a result?

Exactly no guarantees. A Sehajdhari Sikh still accepts amrit. One who does not take amrit is no Sikh. No where is it written that by bowing to Guruji Maharaj that makes one a Sikh. What a joke! So when foreign dignitaries or cops visiting Gurdwaras and the bow to Guruji Maharaj, they became Sikhs without know it? LOL!

By not allowing them to be married in the Gurdwara, they are not forced to marry in the Church or Mandir. What a skewed perception of reality.

[InderjitS]

Inderjit Bhai Sahib i usually agree with yourself and disagree with Hundal but on this point we really need to think objectively as to what will be the best for our Panth in the long term. Alienating such couples so that they abandon all links to Sikhi and so that their children and future generations are all non-Sikhs is a recipe for the demographic annihilation of our Panth in Diaspora countries and indeed outside of Punjab. A couples desire to be blessed with Anand Karaj should be used as a starting point to fully integrate the couple and thus their future children and onward generations fully within the Sikh Panth. Blocking 20% of marriages every generation from Anand Karaj will mean the Sikh population will collapse to less than half of what it currently is within a couple of generations as a consequence.

There is no reason for the non sikh to perform lavaan, What are they trying to profess, if they have piaar for Sikhi (in 99% cases) they wont have as it's love and lust which drives these marriages, then why not become Sikh. If this is not a choice both should convert to the other's religion, practice it as best as possible and bring up their offspring in a non-confused manner. We are not after quantity in Sikhi. A handful of Chardhikala Gursikhs like Sants in the early part of this century or ones that gave their heads for the panth can have an impact worldwide, this is the type of population we should aim to nurture.

[JagsawSingh]

Shut the hell up all of you (especially DTF) with your nonsense talk abut 'dilution' 'mixed faith' etc. All of this has absolutely nothing to do with the issue and just plays into the hands of the mainstream media (with the help of Sunny Hundal and Bobby Friction) who want to portray this as an issue where Sikhs are shown as racists who don't want their children marrying white people.

The kind of things you people, thanks to DTF, ae talking about blatantly plays into their hands.

You all need shut up with that talk and be very clear on this simple issue, so that that they can hear and understand it very well:

We, the Sikhs, couldn't care less if a Sikh man or girl marries a Nigerian, Pole, Englishman or Latvian etc. Its none of our business. The personal life of the individual is the business of the individual. We never give them lectures about their proposed marriage and we never try and stop their marriage. Its their own personal life and we respect that.

What we say to them is; their wedding should take place in a secular setting because obviously the religious setting and its vows in front of our living Guru, make it clear that you're both Sikhs. Obviously then, as that would be a lie, and neither we nor you would want to blatantly insult Guru ji like this, a seular setting like a town hall is the right place for you to get married, and we hope you're both really happy together.

That ^ is what we're saying. That ^ is what we need the mainstream media to understand because right now we're not explaining anything to them with any clarity while Sunny Hundal and Bobby Friction are,... from the inside.

What we don't need....and what is of absolutely no benefit whatsoever to us in this issue.....is the nonsense conversation thats been going on here. Stop it. Concentrate on explaining the issue with clarity to the media and, because of its simplicity, they will understand.

[DTF]

There is no reason for the non sikh to perform lavaan, What are they trying to profess,

D = To me bowing down before Maharaj is an expression of humility. At the very least it is an expression of respect for a spouse which can in time bring one closer to Sikhi if we do proper parchar. It is only for Akaal Purakh to judge who is sincere and insincere when bowing down before Maharaj.

if they have piaar for Sikhi (in 99% cases) they wont have as it's love and lust which drives these marriages, then why not become Sikh.

D = De facto the spouses are becoming sehajdhari Sikhs by bowing down before Maharaj of their own volition

If this is not a choice both should convert to the other's religion, practice it as best as possible and bring up their offspring in a non-confused manner.

D = Bhai Sahib the most important thing is that the children of such marriages are raised as Sikhs. Excluding one's parents from Anand Karaj is a guaranteed way to ensure the children and future generations will have no connection to Sikhi

We are not after quantity in Sikhi. A handful of Chardhikala Gursikhs like Sants in the early part of this century or ones that gave their heads for the panth can have an impact worldwide, this is the type of population we should aim to nurture.

D = 100% agreed. The Khalsa Panth is about quality as opposed to quantity. But the more Sikhs there are worldwide the more we can do for Sarbat da Bhala and the greater ability we have to defend our own Panth and the more Amritdhari GurSikhs will arise. Had our population been 100 million strong in 1849, 1947 and 1984 we would not have experienced the defeats we did and we would have greater ability to defeat the damage are enduring to drugs, alcohol, female infanticide, biraderi apartheid, cancer, illiteracy and poverty currently destroying many millions in our Panth.

[StarStriker]

I would like to ask DTF why he/she votes to like for both sides of the argument.

Sukhmani Kaur was Amritdhari at the time they married so I don't understand Sunny's point, its not like they met before taking Amrit. My personal preference is arranged marriage but that's another subject in itself.

Singh559, on 13 Aug 2015 - 18:53, said:

I too feel for the Granthis they are treated like dirt, paid less than minimum wage and fear the committee members. In an ideal world, like if we had Gursikhs running the Akal Takhat and our own Desh, they would be protected for walking out and the committees members severely punished for openly flouting the sandesh from Takhat Sahib.

This shows u how much of a liar sunny hundal is, jagraj singhs wife, was already an amridhari, prior to them getting married, so there was never any other inevitability, apart from them havin a sikh wedding with sikh kids, since they both r sikhs anyways. This shows u wat sort of person this guy is. Wat protest wud there have been in 2 amritdharis gettin married? Id love to see jagrajs answer to that scandalous comment. Sunny behaves like a little girl on his social media accounts. Whenever any1 gives him any stick, he cant hack it, n printscreens/screenshots the comments, and reposting them, lookin for sympathy from his hippy followers, cryin wolf.

[DTF]

StarStriker Ji this is half of what I am saying.

We are ourselves giving ammunition to our enemies to attack us by acting the way we are.

Instead of using a couple's desire for an Anand Karaj as a springboard to ensure couples raise their children as Sikhs.

Sikhi is the undeniable Truth. It is the most universal, accepting, inclusive philosophy out there for Sarbat da Bhala.

But thanks to these protest & blocking of Anand Karaj video's we are being denigrated in the media as an ethnic cult.

[Balkaar]

I wonder why some of our people are so eager to abandon it with such relish? What is it in our make-up as a race or cultural group that leads to such a situation?

The reason is one which you yourself have hit upon in other topics brother.

Our people are too bloody accommodating. The conviction that all religions are respectable paths to God is wrongly assumed to be a part of Sikh doctrine by so many. So the abundance of Sikhs who make concessions to their non-Sikh partners in the matter of their childrens' religious upbringing isn't something to be marveled at. Sikh parents are convinced that these unpleasant cults into which they are selling their own children are Sikhi's equals.

We should take steps to shake off all these hippy accretions, God knows where they came from.

[InderjitS]

There is no reason for the non sikh to perform lavaan, What are they trying to profess,

D = To me bowing down before Maharaj is an expression of humility. At the very least it is an expression of respect for a spouse which can in time bring one closer to Sikhi if we do proper parchar. It is only for Akaal Purakh to judge who is sincere and insincere when bowing down before Maharaj.

if they have piaar for Sikhi (in 99% cases) they wont have as it's love and lust which drives these marriages, then why not become Sikh.

D = De facto the spouses are becoming sehajdhari Sikhs by bowing down before Maharaj of their own volition

If this is not a choice both should convert to the other's religion, practice it as best as possible and bring up their offspring in a non-confused manner.

D = Bhai Sahib the most important thing is that the children of such marriages are raised as Sikhs. Excluding one's parents from Anand Karaj is a guaranteed way to ensure the children and future generations will have no connection to Sikhi

We are not after quantity in Sikhi. A handful of Chardhikala Gursikhs like Sants in the early part of this century or ones that gave their heads for the panth can have an impact worldwide, this is the type of population we should aim to nurture.

D = 100% agreed. The Khalsa Panth is about quality as opposed to quantity. But the more Sikhs there are worldwide the more we can do for Sarbat da Bhala and the greater ability we have to defend our own Panth and the more Amritdhari GurSikhs will arise. Had our population been 100 million strong in 1849, 1947 and 1984 we would not have experienced the defeats we did and we would have greater ability to defeat the damage are enduring to drugs, alcohol, female infanticide, biraderi apartheid, cancer, illiteracy and poverty currently destroying many millions in our Panth.

I think you should take time to talk to non Sikhs who have married at the Guru Ghar and see how much piaar they have for Sikhi. I have come across many and not a single one has become Sikh. Yes some of them come to the Gurdwara on main Gurpurabs to eat langar but that's as far as it goes, they remain detached from Sikhi. If one of them is religious the kids adopt that faith, usually of the mother.

Please ponder on this pangti regarding bowing/seeing Guru Ji:

Satgur noo sabh ko vekhdaa, jeta jagat sansaar

Dithe mukhat na hovee, jichar shabad na kare vichaar

Do we know where the word Sehajdhari came from, where was it first used, please advise?

The AK is hardly the best place to educate people on Sikhi. This should happen beforehand.

[JagsawSingh]

Such a simple issue. So easy to explain to the mainstream media.

But here we are. 12 pages long (so far) and all we've done is confused the media. They'll come away from this still not understanding our very basic easy to understand point and so they'll go to Sunny Hundal and Bobby Friction for an explanation and they will get one there.

Are we really that easy to manipulate ?

I mean think about it: It started with mainstream media articles about us protecting the honour of Guru ji in the Gurdwara, the media distorted it in order to portray us as racists and intolerants who don't want and won't allow mixed marriages full stop and then, before you know it the media - Sunny Hundal and Bobby Friction have got us wrapped round their finger so much and so easily they've got us making messages in this debate where we articulate that we don't like our girls marrying white and black fellas. i.e the exact same kind of messages one finds on the right wing hitler worshipping websites. So, the media, Sunny Hundal and Bobby Friction now have exactly the ammunition they were looking for in the debate. Their argument was that Sikh 'thugs' are pretending to protect the honour of the Guru but really its just a front for stopping sikh girls marrying white and black men.

You people, here on this thread, are so stupid you've actually armed your enemies. Well done you muppets. and I'm talking mosly to DTF here as its clear he or she has some personal family loyalty thing about standing up for mixed marriages in the Gurdwara....seems to be on a personal mission to ensure Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal win the debate.

[DTF]

I think you should take time to talk to non Sikhs who have married at the Guru Ghar and see how much piaar they have for Sikhi.

D = Bhai Sahib i believe anybody that is educated about Sikhi will automatically come to have pyaar for Sikhi

I have come across many and not a single one has become Sikh.

D = Bhai Sahib Ji if you mean Amritdhari Sikh then granted the incidences like that are low but I sincerely believe that all those who have married by Anand Karaj and continue to attend Gurdwara's to this day are indeed sehajdhari Sikhs and fellow members of the Sikh Panth.

Yes some of them come to the Gurdwara on main Gurpurabs to eat langar but that's as far as it goes, they remain detached from Sikhi.

D = I respect that they attend Gurdwara. I consider all who attend Gurdwara as fellow Sikhs. if they remained detached from Sikhi that isn't helped by us considering them non-Sikhs when they have an Anand Karaj and attend Gurdwara on Gurpurabs!

If one of them is religious the kids adopt that faith, usually of the mother.

D = We should strive that all children of such marriages are members of the Sikh Panth

Please ponder on this pangti regarding bowing/seeing Guru Ji:

Satgur noo sabh ko vekhdaa, jeta jagat sansaar

Dithe mukhat na hovee, jichar shabad na kare vichaar

D = Exactly Bhai Sahib i think the Gurbani substantiates my point completely (particularly in respect of only Akaal Purakh recognising who is a bhekhi and the vast numbers of so-called Sikhs that do not believe in Sikhi sincerely and drink after their Anand Karaj that we never bother to protest against).

Do we know where the word Sehajdhari came from, where was it first used, please advise?

D = Bhai Sahib i suspect that you might feel that sehajdhari's are non-Sikhs but I feel they are integral members of the Sikh Panth.

The AK is hardly the best place to educate people on Sikhi. This should happen beforehand.

D = Absolutely agreed. But when a couple are ready to get married it is a bit late to worry about what we as a community should have done from long before.