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Basics Of Sikhi - Anand Karaj (Addressing The Controversy)


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Never heard or seen Nihal, Friction or S Hundal kick up a fuss about the 'lack' of inter-faith marriages in Mosques. Are they scared of upsetting them?

It is precisely Muslims would have have kicked up a much bigger fuss if a nikah happened and what the repercussions would be far greater that they would not dare say anything.

This type of attack and labelling Sikhs as fundamentalists is because they think can get away with it precisely because Sikhs are far more tolerant.

These Nihal/Friction/Hundal types have a warped mindset in thinking that they will keep prodding with foolish comments and then cry wolf when someone gives them a befitting reply.

We Sikhs are by in large are easy going, tolerant bunch but others mistake that for weakness and try to take advantage of it. When we stick up for ourselves we are called Taliban and fundamentalists.

I wonder what the background of Hundal/Friction is. I reckon there is some Hindu Punjabi in there somewhere.

I recall seeing Friction on a documentary in the late 1990s on the BBC. I remember him stating that he likes nothing better than seeing Asian girls losing it sexually on the dance floor, that's how much a k*njar he is. They interviewed his parents, his dad was playing pool in the Glassy Junction and he was speaking this weird Hindi/Punjabi hybrid language, my parents were making fun of him. His mother looked Hindu Punjabi, it's that particular short boy hair cut that is dyed tinted with a light brown/reddish highlight.

Hundal's whole rant came from his Skype with his mother. If he was any sort of journalist he would have investigated properly rather than going by heresay.

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The only people making noise about Sikhs standing up for the rehit are those hippies who never attend a Gurdwara anyway unless it is someone's wedding. While they are they way they are, but what is su

Please, please, please watch this entire video. Not because you don't know the who, what and why of the Anand Karaj, but because of the way Bhai Jagraj Singh addresses the issue in a very diplomatic a

whats amazing is this type of topic somehow manages to get 500-600+ comments on fb posts, from mostly coconut/hippy fake sikhs, who come out from under their rocks, yet they are NOWHERE to be seen, wh

Nihal, Friction and co, have made it into their 'roles' as they represent views that their peers approve of. If it wasn't them, there are plenty of others willing to take their place. There is nothing to stop 'inter faith' marriages being 'blessed' in a gurdwara, but the anand karaj is for sikhs (yes, there is an issue over what constitutes a 'sikh', ideally it would amritdhari).

Its also not a liberal vs fundamentalist thing, as most of the liberals I know would say that be the best you whatever religion you are as long as you abide by the 'rule of law'. Its generally the atheist's (of all political persuations)/ 'being modern' brigade who raise such issues.

As the youtube video mentioned if people before the anand karaj were educated on what it means, sikhi would be in a better place. We should all respect 'house rules' and instead of aiming for what 'we' want, abide by what our 'guru' wants.

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So was it stopped by the same people for the same reasons. We believe in a lot of things when it suits us.

What on earth r u goin on about? Here read this article on dailysikhupdates.

http://dailysikhupdates.com/singhs-protest-against-outerfaith-marriage-in-uk-gurdwara/

There was going to be beadbi of the sacred Anand Karaj ceremony where a Hindu guy was going to marry a Sikh girl.

After already having the Hindu marriage ceremony, the groom spoke to local Sikhs and realised and agreed that he should not participate in an Anand Karaj ceremony.

Respect to those who came to peacefully protest and dialogue with the committee and family.

The family agreed not to go ahead with the outerfaith Anand Karaj.The committee did call the police and allowed them to walk upstairs with their shoes on, but the Singhs soon saw the police off and the planned beadbi by the committee of the sacred Anand Karaj was stopped.

Dhan Dhan Sikhi

Please if you are from an outer faith and are going to consider having an Anand Karaj ceremony, please ensure you follow the full protocol.

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forgot to mention that the 'anand karaj' on its own is not recognised as a legal marriage in this country. Hence the need to court marriage (or signing the papers in the gurdwara before the anand karaj). Why the gurdwara's don't just say to the inter-faith couples, sign the papers in the gurdwara and then straight afterwards you can have a blessing before Guru Ji. Then there is no drama.

If it is important to have a 'ceremony' in the gurdwara surely they can sign the legal papers there too.

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Ranjit Singh doesn't have Sikhs.

Pardon?

The chap in the video says clearly because Maharaja married a Muslim, the Sikhs of his Kingdom stopped talking to him?

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If Sikh community in UK can get on the same page, then the hippy fake liberals who will be apologists for muslims/islam will just be letting out hot air with nothing of substance.

Singh559 Ji good to see your posts on here again but I disagree with you on this subject as no Sikh like myself that does not want Anand Karaj restricted or protested for those that wish to solemnise their marriage via it is proposing that Muslim men be allowed to marry at any Gurdwara.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/76978-muslim-getting-married-in-shepherds-bush-gurdwara-this-friday/page-4

Sunny Hundal the scumbag (Sorry Jagraj) has started stirring on FB following an article in the independent about 2 Sikh fellas who confronted the head Giani at Havelock Road about a Polish male marrying a so called Sikh girl.

https://www.facebook.com/sunnyhundalorg/videos/875037319233019/

Inderjit Bhai Sahib i usually agree with yourself and disagree with Hundal but on this point we really need to think objectively as to what will be the best for our Panth in the long term. Alienating such couples so that they abandon all links to Sikhi and so that their children and future generations are all non-Sikhs is a recipe for the demographic annihilation of our Panth in Diaspora countries and indeed outside of Punjab. A couples desire to be blessed with Anand Karaj should be used as a starting point to fully integrate the couple and thus their future children and onward generations fully within the Sikh Panth. Blocking 20% of marriages every generation from Anand Karaj will mean the Sikh population will collapse to less than half of what it currently is within a couple of generations as a consequence.

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StarStriker Ji i don't agree with Hundal and Friction on most things but on this issue I believe they are seeing the future consequences of what blocking such Anand Karaj's will mean for Sikhi better than the people that protested. The bottom line is in my life I would not be Sikh today had these protestors existed in the heyday of the Singh Sabha era when hundreds of thousands (possibly over a million) non-Sikhs came into Sikhi precisely via the mode of Anand Karaj as so-called high caste Qureshi Qazi's and Hindu Pandits would refuse refuse to marry those of poor backgrounds that they despised. Ask yourself this brother, would the people who are protesting nowadays have protested at the Anand Karaj of Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj (which was around Ik Onkar drawn on the Earth by Guru Sahib) and the Anand Karaj of countless numbers of our Panth's bravest shaheeds? Would blocking your cousin's Gujarati husband from an Anand Karaj have been good news or would it be better for us to educate him that one of the Panj Piare was Gujarati? Sikhi will only flourish if we use such marriages to bring in new members of the Panth.

I saw the video as well, it wasn't violent or aggressive. With that said, towards the end of the video the dudes making the video lost all composure and began to interact with the Giani Ji in a highly disrespectful manner not respecting his position and that he's older than him.

The Sikh Council in the UK needs to establish a more structured org that has outreach and clear programs for Anand Karaj. I think the requirement should be if someone claims to be a Sikh they should declare it and that they believe in and understand what the Anand Karaj means. With that point established, the Sikh Council in UK also needs to effectively communicate that non-Sikh and a Sikh have an unquestioned freedom to get married and are welcome to get Hukamnama blessing from Guru Sahib. Giani Jis or sangat could take on the sewa of doing the interpretation and katha of it for those who don't understand.

Agreed Bhai Sahib. Even if Anand Karaj were to be restricted to Amritdhari Sikhs in the future, we need to arrive at a solution whereby sehajdhari Sikhs and erstwhile non-Sikhs are welcome as full members of the Sikh Panth by virtue of the fact that they bow down before Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Alienating couples and their future generations and the negative PR being generated against Sikhi as a result of these protests is like celebrating our Panth's long term demographic decline in the Diaspora.

From the video it is clear that the Granthi has no answers, so he attacks the guys making the video for not being keshdharis.

Proactive Bhai Sahib 99% of the time I always agree but with you being an expert on statistics let me respectfully request you to analyse what you will feel will happen to our Panth's population in Diaspora countries if say 20% of marriages each generation are blocked? Agreed that the people who don't care about Sikhi can use this as a platform to paint Sikhi in a poor light but I passionately care about Sikhi and I am worried that we are not analysing the demographic consequences of what will happen by alienating couples and their future children away from Sikhi. Where the male spouse is a Sikh i simply cannot understand why we Sikhs would even oppose that given that most red blooded males would raise their sons as fellow Sikhs too.

I applaud for those guys who made a stand.

Ranjeet Singh Ji i often agree with you but how are these sehajdhari's who protested helping Sikhi for the long term by alienating such couples and their future generations away from Sikhi permanently? If we don't work out what is in our Panth's long term interests demographically and do so soon, I can easily see the day when those very same sehajdhari's themselves that protested will be denied an Anand Karaj and the consequence of that will be that the vast majority of the Sikh Panth will be alienated from Sikhi.

I too commend the guys for making a stand against these masands and pimps who feel little guilt at selling their Guru to the highest bidder.

However, these gentlemen should also consider abandoning those aspects of their own lifestyles that contradict Sikhi, such as the drinking (I'm assuming) and the cutting of hair, so that when they do stand up against beadbi they can't be criticised for their own shortcomings. It's all good and well standing up for one aspect of the Sikh faith, but knowingly choosing to ignore the others is slightly hypocritical on their part.

I hear what you say MisterrSingh Ji but let me sincerely put it to you that the likes of Hundal have better understood what will harm Sikhi's image amongst the wider non-Sikh public at large then the sehajdhari's who (in equal sincerity) protest such marriages. Just because Muslims and Christians employ certain strategies it doesn't mean we should copy them especially when the u.s.p. of Sikhi is that it is a universal and welcoming and inclusive faith in stark contrast to the rigid falsehoods of Islam and Taliban or Islamic State ideology.

But I think a lot of positives will come out of this.

Ranjeet Ji people said the same thing after Swindon. In even the couple of years since such marriages are on the increase and they will continue to increase year after year as assimilation increases over time. What is being achieved by these protests is that those who were already due to marry someone of another background are resolving not to partake in Anand Karaj and thereby our Panth loses a major opportunity to re-integrate such people into fully feeling that Sikhi is something they can benefit from and indeed the World can benefit from the more Sikhs that there are.

I think a lot of our people are stuck in the matrix and they need to take the red pill.

Ranjeet Ji if swallowing a certain pill leads to the guaranteed demographic decline of our Panth's population in Diaspora countries then what is the benefit to the Sikh Panth of that?

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/77308-beadbi-at-brent-sikh-centre-uk/

The only people making noise about Sikhs standing up for the rehit are those hippies who never attend a Gurdwara anyway unless it is someone's wedding.

Agreed Jonny Bhai Sahib that some opposing the sehajdhari protestors aren't too connected with Sikhi. However, that is not good enough reason to refute the overall point that by alienating such couples away from Sikhi (by ignoring their desire for Anand Karaj as a God-given opportunity for those that care about Sikhi to help orientate the new couple into the Sikh Panth so that their children are also raised as Sikhs).

I had a similar line of thinking about inter-faith anand karaj. I was all for it. I had a really long discussion with a more wise sikh and after we went over the Lavan I agreed I was wrong.

Kira Ji i think it's probably the first time I've ever disagreed with you but think this topic over rationally. We all know that the sehajdhari brothers protesting are doing so because they care about Sikhi. But the net consequence of our actions (those that protest such marriages) is that we are driving an ever increasing percentage away from Sikhi year after year when Gurmat teaches us that we should spread Sikhi via engagement and interaction with the couples so that their children fully feel that they are members of the Sikh Panth. Sikh numbers in the Diaspora will not hold up in the long term if 20% of each generation (and more as time goes in) are alienated away from all connection to Sikhi in this way.

It is futile to protest against the family members of those marriages being held.

Also, doing so damages our image everywhere.

Well pointed out Bhai Sahib

As to the point about Sikhs drinking, smoking.....at the end of the day they're still Sikhs. Maybe not a practicing Sikh but still they're Sikhs. This is simply not comparable to someone from another faith wanting to marry in a Gurdwara.

Sikhi is shown via our actions which align with Gurmat brother. It is not an ethnic birthright.

Sikhi is a universal faith for all brother. Regardless of the race or religion they were born into.

Let's say you have a 1000 ml bottle of water which is losing 200ml of water every hour (akin to 20% marrying those whose both parents are not Sikhs) then after a few generations the bottle of water will be empty. We cannot stop such marriages taking place when Sikhs are just over a 1% minority in Canada, a 0.7% minority in the UK and a 0.1% minority in the USA. The only way Sikhi can flourish in the Diaspora is by accepting these inevitable marriages and then ensuring that via positive engagement from Gurdwara staff and more importantly Sangat we ensure that the children of such marriages comprise new Sikhs of the future.

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Singh559 Ji good to see your posts on here again but I disagree with you on this as no Sikh like myself that does not want Anand Karaj restricted or protested for those that wish to solemnise their marriage via it is proposing that Muslim men be allowed to marry at any Gurdwara.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/76978-muslim-getting-married-in-shepherds-bush-gurdwara-this-friday/page-4

Inderjit Bhai Sahib i usually agree with yourself and disagree with Hundal but on this point we really need to think objectively as to what will be the best for our Panth. Alienating such couples so that they abandon all links to Sikhi and so that their children and future generations are all non-Sikhs is a recipe for the demographic annihilation of our Panth in Diaspora countries and indeed outside of Punjab. A couples desire to be blessed with Anand Karaj should be used as a starting point to fully integrate the couple and thus their future children and onward generations fully within the Sikh Panth. Blocking 20% of marriages every generations will mean the Sikh population will collapse to less than half of what it currently within a couple of generations.

StarStriker Ji i don't agree with Hundal and Friction on most things but on this issue I believe they are seeing the future consequences of what blocking such Anand Karaj's will mean for Sikhi better than the people that protested. The bottom line is in my life I would not be Sikh today had these protestors existed in the heyday of the Singh Sabha era when hundreds of thousands (possibly over a million) non-Sikhs came into Sikhi precisely via the mode of Anand Karaj as so-called high caste Qureshi Qazi's and Hindu Pandits would refuse refuse to marry those that despised. Ask yourself this brother, would the people who are protesting nowadays have protested at the Anand Karaj of Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj (which was Ik Onkar drawn on the Earth by Guru Sahib) and the Anand Karaj of countless numbers of our Panth's bravest shaheeds?

Agreed Bhai Sahib. Even if Anand Karaj were to be restricted to Amritdhari Sikhs in the future, we need to arrive at a solution whereby sehajdhari Sikhs and erstwhile non-Sikhs are welcome as full members of the Sikh Panth by virtue of the fact that they bow down before Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. Alienating couples and their future generations and the negative PR being generated against Sikhi as a result of these protests is like celebrating our Panth's long term demographic decline in the Diaspora.

Proactive Bhai Sahib 99% of the time I always agree but with you being an expert on statistics let me respectfully request you to analyse what you will feel will happen to our Panth's population in Diaspora countries if say 20% of marriages each generation are blocked? Agreed that the people who don't care about Sikhi can use this as a platform to paint Sikhi in a poor light but I passionately care about Sikhi and I am worried that we are not analysing the demographic consequences of what will happen by alienating couples and their future children away from Sikhi. Where the male spouse is a Sikh i simply cannot understand why we Sikhs would even oppose that given that most red blooded males would raise their sons as fellow Sikhs too.

Ranjeet Singh Ji i often agree with you but how are these sehajdhari's who protested helping Sikhi for the long term by alienating such couples and their future generations away from Sikhi permanently? If we don't work out what is in our Panth's long term interests demographically and do so soon, I can easily see the day when those very same sehajdhari's themselves that protested will be denied an Anand Karaj and the consequence of that will be that the vast majority of the Sikh Panth will be alienated from Sikhi.

I hear what you say MisterrSingh Ji but let me sincerely put it to you that the likes of Hundal have better understood what will harm Sikhi's image amongst the wider non-Sikh public at large then the sehajdhari's who (in equal sincerity) protest such marriages. Just because Muslims and Christians employ certain strategies it doesn't mean we should copy them especially when the u.s.p. of Sikhi is that it is a universal and welcoming and inclusive faith in stark contrast to the rigid falsehoods of Islam and Taliban or Islamic State ideology.

Ranjeet Ji people said the same thing after Swindon. In even the couple of years since such marriages are on the increase and they will continue to increase year after year as assimilation increases over time. What is being achieved by these protests is that those who were already due to marry someone of another background are resolving not to partake in Anand Karaj and thereby our Panth loses a major opportunity to re-integrate such people into full feeling that Sikhi is something they can benefit from and indeed the World can benefit from the more Sikhs that there are.

Ranjeet Ji if swallowing the red pill leads to the guaranteed demographic decline of our Panth's population in Diaspora countries

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/77308-beadbi-at-brent-sikh-centre-uk/

Agreed Jonny Bhai Sahib that some opposing the sehajdhari protestors aren't too connected with Sikhi. However, that is not good enough reason to refute the overall point that by alienating such couples away from Sikhi (by ignoring their desire for Anand Karaj as a God-given opportunity for those that care about Sikhi to help orientate the new couple into the Sikh Panth so that their children are also raised as Sikhs).

Kira Ji i think it's probably the first time I've ever disagreed with you but think this topic over rationally. We all know that the sehajdhari brothers protesting are doing so because they care about Sikhi. But the net consequence of our actions (those that protest such marriages) is that we are driving an ever increasing percentage away from Sikhi year after year when Gurmat teaches us that we should spread Sikhi via engagement and interaction with the couples so that their children fully feel that they are members of the Sikh Panth. Sikh numbers in the Diaspora will not hold up in the long term if 20% are alienated away from all connection to Sikhi in this way.

Well pointed out Bhai Sahib

Sikhi is shown via our actions which align with Gurmat brother. It is not an ethnic birthright. Sikhi is a universal faith for all brother.

Let's say you have a 1000 ml bottle of water which is losing 200ml of water every hour (akin to 20% marrying those whose both parents are not Sikhs) then after a few generations the bottle of water will be empty. We cannot stop such marriages taking place when Sikhs are just over a 1% minority in Canada, a 0.7% minority in the UK and a 0.1% minority in the USA. The only way Sikhi can flourih in the Diaspora is by accepting such marriages and ensuring that via positive engagement from Gurdwara staff and more importantly Sangat we ensure that the children of such marriages comprise new Sikhs of the future.

DTF

Nobody has alienated Sikhs who engaged into mixed - marriages. There needs to be protocols that have to be followed none the less.

The case at Southall Gurdwara is a blessing in disguise because it brings to light what is going on for a lot of people not aware of what is going on. If this was dealt with in a clandestine way then the commitee members would keep on getting away with things which would mean more further problems down the line.

It's like how things were between the end of Khalsa Raj and pre Singh Sabha era, when the Masands were booted out and the murtis were removed from Hari Mandir. If Sunny Hundal was around in those days, he would called them fanatics and extremists as well. Also, by removing murtis and masands, there were no - one being alienated and any kind of demographic decline either, people of all creeds and races are still welcome.

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StarStriker Ji i don't agree with Hundal and Friction on most things but on this issue I believe they are seeing the future consequences of what blocking such Anand Karaj's will mean for Sikhi better than the people that protested. The bottom line is in my life I would not be Sikh today had these protestors existed in the heyday of the Singh Sabha era when hundreds of thousands (possibly over a million) non-Sikhs came into Sikhi precisely via the mode of Anand Karaj as so-called high caste Qureshi Qazi's and Hindu Pandits would refuse refuse to marry those that despised. Ask yourself this brother, would the people who are protesting nowadays have protested at the Anand Karaj of Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj (which was Ik Onkar drawn on the Earth by Guru Sahib) and the Anand Karaj of countless numbers

Complete nonsense regarding the whole singh sabha era of anand karaj's. U do realise, in those days, u HAD to be an amritdhari to have an anand karaj, so those hindus and muslims who had anand karajs in those days, were sikh converts wen they took amrit, PRIOR to having anand karaj's, so no mix faith marriages took place in that arguement, so ur argument doesnt hold weight. Non-amritdhari sikhs have been allowed to have anand karajs only afterwards in 50's onwards i believe. I remember watchin a programme on tv, called 'who do u think u are?', where gurinder chadha went back to kenya to discover her roots. In the gurdwara where her mum and dad got married in, it was written how her mum, had to take amrit in order to marry her dad in the gurdwara to participate in anand karaj.

If 2 non practising sikh take part in anand karaj, atleast the kids will have sikhi connection from both sides, which is the case with me. If the kids of 1 sikh and 1 christian, r raised with the sikh parent not givin a damn, yet the christian side more stronger in their religion, how has that helped sikhi exactly? Yet u wanna advocate for those mix faith sham weddings to take place? We r killing our future through this stupidity! You support bobby friction in callin sikhs talibans yea? Show me where these sikhs beat up ppl? Show me where a threat of suicide bomb wud b detonated if proceedings carry on? Geezer u need to get real. A member in my own family recently had a sham wedding in gurdwara, i did not attend it, and asked her, wat will her kids be? Will they be sikhs? She could even give me a straight answer, and tried to fobb me off. Wat pyar they got for sikhi, if they marry non sikhs, then dont raise sikh kids?

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Let's say you have a 1000 ml bottle of water which is losing 200ml of water every hour (akin to 20% marrying those whose both parents are not Sikhs) then after a few generations the bottle of water will be empty. We cannot stop such marriages taking place when Sikhs are just over a 1% minority in Canada, a 0.7% minority in the UK and a 0.1% minority in the USA. The only way Sikhi can flourih in the Diaspora is by accepting such marriages

What a total load of crap DTF.

We Sikhs have exactly the same rule regarding who can and who cannot get married in our place of worship as the Jews, Muslims and Christians.

But how come you don't hear people calling the Archbishop of Canterbury a "thug" ? After all, he holds exactly the same viewpoint as the Singhs that stopped this marriage.

How come you don't hear people calling The Chief Rabbi of Great Britain a "thug" and "taliban" ? After all, he holds exactly the same viewpoint as the Singhs that stopped this marriage.

These people who are calling us "thugs" and "taliban" are quite frankly TERRORISTS !!! The very definition of terrorism is to bully and intimidate people into accepting their viewpoint. Our stance, as Sikhs, is entirely moderate and understandable as it is the same stance that the Christians, Jews and Muslims have...i.e the fact that if you are going to stand in your place of worship making vows of that faith then you should, at the very least, be of that faith. This is basic common sense and basic religious decency.

But the terrorists are trying to terrorise us Sikhs into accepting their alternative view, and they do so by calling us names, de-humanising us. This is terrorism plain and simple. The fact that you, and that Southall Gurdwara president, support this terrorism can only lead me to conclude that both you and he have family members that have had such marriages in Gurdwaras and are now torn between the wider Sikh community and family loyalty.

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The question the protestors need to ask themselves is would they have dared to protest the Anand Karaj of Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj and the Anand Karaj marriages of the bravest shaheeds of our Panth. I am a Sikh today as a result of non-Sikhs being permitted to marry via Anand Karaj and I would hazard a guess that every Sikh has ancestors who came into Sikhi via Anand Karaj.

Well y wud they protest guru nanak dev jis marriage, wen the anand karaj wasnt around wen guru ji got married? He REJECTED the hindu wedding ceremony, drew the mool mantar on the floor and married around the lord therefore. Ananda karaj came after from guru amardas jis time, and if im not mistaken, the 1st participant was his son in law, guru ramdas. Im not quite sure wat ur going on about, seems like ur clutchin at straws here.

Also isnt it funny how the dopey pardhan and sunny hundal call these guys thugs, well wat thuggery went on? If there was thuggery goin on, how come the police, whom were called by the pardhan, left instantaniously, without any arrests, or call for armed swat back up?....oh thats right because the singhs dealt with the matter in a cool n calm manner. This was also confirmed by 2 callers on nihals radio discussion, 1 was a protestor, other was a regular member of the sangat. The protestors consisted of old and young, mona and kesdhari, men and women.

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DTF

Nobody has alienated Sikhs who engaged into mixed - marriages.

Ranjeet Ji isn't blocking a Sikh who wishes to marry by Anand Karaj a de facto alienation of that person and their future generations of children away from Sikhi?

I myself wholeheartedly support the ejection of the Hindu Mahants by the Akali Singh Sabha Lehar so I don't agree with your analogy being relevant to the point. As the Hindu Mahants that worked for the British actively excluded people from entering Gurdwara's whereas the Akali Singh Lehar freed entry to all people in tandem with everything Sikhi stands for.

If around 20% of marriages denied an Anand Karaj each generation won't lead to our Panth's demographic decline in the long term then I don't know what will.

Non-amritdhari sikhs have been allowed to have anand karajs only afterwards in 50's onwards i believe.

That's not so Star Striker Ji as my ancestors didn't take Amrit when they came into Sikhi via Singh Sabha parchar. Do you realistically think that the possibly million plus new Sikhs who came to Sikhi via Singh Sabha parchar were forced to become Amritdhari in order to have Anand Karaj. That's simply not the case. The affirmation to Guru Sahib (being a Sikh) was key not the insistence that only Amritdhari's be considered Sikh. It was only in 1950 that non-Punjabi sehajdhari Sikhs were de facto excluded from the Panth to the delight of our Hindutva enemies who subsequently included them in the Hindu fold. Similarly, the Walsall marriage is a victory for those that want Sikhs pushed away from Anand Karaj and pushed into Hindu wedding rituals.

What a total load of crap DTF.

The fact that you, and that Southall Gurdwara president, support these terrorism can only lead me to conclude that both you and he have family members that have had such marriages in Gurdwaras and are now torn between the wider Sikh community and family loyalty.

Jagsaw Ji I don't class any Sikh who opposes such marriages as a terrorist. I respect their viewpoint and I believe they oppose such marriages because they sincerely care about Sikhi. However, I do strongly disagree with them as I passionately believe that denying 20% of marriages each generation an Anand Karaj will lead to our demographic annihilation over time in the Diaspora.

The reason I am very passionate about it is that I am a Sikh today as a result of erstwhile non-Sikhs being permitted to marry via Anand Karaj in the 20th century so absolutely I oppose the protests and blocking of marriages which horrify me as a massive PR own goal for our Panth while we are patting ourselves on the back.

Well y wud they protest guru nanak dev jis marriage, wen the anand karaj wasnt around wen guru ji got married? He REJECTED the hindu wedding ceremony, drew the mool mantar on the floor and married around the lord therefore. Ananda karaj came after from guru amardas jis time, and if im not mistaken, the 1st participant was his son in law, guru ramdas. Im not quite sure wat ur going on about, seems like ur clutchin at straws here.

Star Striker Ji, Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's marriage was the 1st Anand Karaj in history. Shabad Guru was matha tek to. Obviously nowadays we matha tek to Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. But the point still stands even if you might feel that Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj did not have an Anand Karaj. The question is would the protestors also have protested at Guru Nanak Dev Ji's wedding? Anand Karaj can be a blessing to the Panth for how many new Sikhs of diverse backgrounds it can bring into the Sikh Panth if the engagement, interaction and education of all couples (including those who are both superficially considered Sikhs) is done correctly.

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Ranjeet Ji isn't blocking a Sikh who wishes to marry by Anand Karaj a de facto alienation of that person and their future generations of children away from Sikhi?

I myself wholeheartedly support the ejection of the Hindu Mahants by the Akali Singh Sabha Lehar so I don't agree with your analogy being relevant to the point. As the Hindu Mahants that worked for the British actively excluded people from entering Gurdwara's whereas the Akali Singh Lehar freed entry to all people in tandem with everything Sikhi stands for.

If around 20% of marriages denied an Anand Karaj each generation won't lead to our Panth's demographic decline in the long term then I don't know what will.

That's not so Star Striker Ji as my ancestors didn't take Amrit when they came into Sikhi via Singh Sabha parchar. Do you realistically think that the possibly million plus new Sikhs who came to Sikhi via Singh Sabha parchar were forced to become Amritdhari in order to have Anand Karaj. That's simply not the case. The affirmation to Guru Sahib (being a Sikh) was key not the insistence that only Amritdhari's be considered Sikh. It was only in 1950 that non-Punjabi sehajdhari Sikhs were de facto excluded from the Panth to the delight of our Hindutva enemies who subsequently included them in the Hindu fold. Similarly, the Walsall marriage is a victory for those that want Sikhs pushed away from Anand Karaj and pushed into Hindu wedding rituals.

Jagsaw Ji I don't class any Sikh who opposes such marriages as a terrorists. I respect their viewpoint and I believe they oppose such marriages because they care about Sikhi. However, I do strongly disagree with them as I passionately believe that denying 20% of marriages each generation an Anand Karaj each generation will lead to our demographic annihilation over time in the Diaspora.

The reason I am very passionate about is that I am a Sikh today as a result of erstwhile non-Sikhs being permitted to marry via Anand Karaj so absolutely I oppose the protests and blocking of marriages as a massive PR own goal for our Panth.

Star Striker Ji, Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj's marriage was the 1st Anand Karaj in history. Shabad Guru was matha tek to. Obviously nowadays we matha tek to Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. But the point still stands even if you might feel that Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj did not have an Anand Karaj. The question is would the protestors also have protested at Guru Nanak Dev Ji's wedding? Anand Karaj can be a blessing to the Panth for how many new Sikhs of diverse backgrounds it can to the Sikh Panth if the engagement, interaction and education of all couples is done correctly.

You will probably believe Amrit isn't necessary for Sikhs. You'll say, "just be a good person".
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Jagsaw Ji I don't class any Sikh who opposes such marriages as a terrorist.

You misunderstood my point DTF. The Southall Gurdwara President Mr Sumra, Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal etc are the Terrorists for they are trying to intimidate Sikhs into standing in front Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and blatantly lying. Their intimidation / terrorism modus operandi is to de-humanise the Sikhs by calling them names such as "thugs" and "taliban". Such a tactic is the very definition of terrorism. Thus, Bobby Friction and Sunny Hundal are by very definition terrorists, and you are supporting terrorists.

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