Mixed Marriages, I.j. Singh And Guruka Singh Views Analyzed

[Ranjeet01]

Hmm... great point. I never considered that angle.

I feel there's also those that have an attitude of, "What can you [other Sikhs] do about it?" Almost like goading or rubbing people's noses in it. Not sure why, but there's that element of discarding the restrictive shackles of an oppressive culture - not my opinion but I'm trying to place myself in their shoes - and a need to celebrate this glorious act of emancipation and rebellion in the very place where such unions would be frowned upon; the final act of victory as it were.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into it, lol.

I think it is more of having your cake and eating it.

Hypergamy does not care for Rehit Maryada.

[Quantavius]

Hmm... great point. I never considered that angle.

I feel there's also those that have an attitude of, "What can you [other Sikhs] do about it?" Almost like goading or rubbing people's noses in it. Not sure why, but there's that element of discarding the restrictive shackles of an oppressive culture - not my opinion but I'm trying to place myself in their shoes - and a need to celebrate this glorious act of emancipation and rebellion in the very place where such unions would be frowned upon; the final act of victory as it were.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into it, lol.

I believe it to be the real reason. The Sikh men who marry a person of different religion are more confident. They don't care and will settle with a marriage ceremony outside the Gurdwara.

It's usually always the women who insist to have their marriage in the Gurdwara. What I believe the underlying reason is that they want validation from their family and the larger community and what better way then a marriage via the Gurdwara. If they have a normal wedding outside of the Gurdwara, more then likely the Punjabi friends and family members will make excuses not to attend especially feeling out of place with another race. In a Gurdwara setting, more then likely the attendance will be better. They fear that after marriage, like so many others, they will be ignored and avoided.

Just my 2 cents. I could be wrong.

You are thinking like a typical male, which is to think pragmatically.

A lady needs to have a different outfit with different accessories for each particular event.

And why they can't do that during lunch and dinner events? The marriage in the Gurdwara is just but one event out many, many events in a Punjabi wedding.

[Ranjeet01]

I believe it to be the real reason. The Sikh men who marry a person of different religion are more confident. They don't care and will settle with a marriage ceremony outside the Gurdwara.

It's usually always the women who insist to have their marriage in the Gurdwara. What I believe the underlying reason is that they want validation from their family and the larger community and what better way then a marriage via the Gurdwara. If they have a normal wedding outside of the Gurdwara, more then likely the Punjabi friends and family members will make excuses not to attend especially feeling out of place with another race. In a Gurdwara setting, more then likely the attendance will be better. They fear that after marriage, like so many others, they will be ignored and avoided.

Just my 2 cents. I could be wrong.

And why they can't do that during lunch and dinner events? The marriage in the Gurdwara is just but one event out many, many events in a Punjabi wedding.

Male wiring is very different from female wiring.

You are correct in that females always require more validation as they are more social than males.

A female dreams about their big day since they were little girls. They want to be the centre of attention, the groom is just another accessorie.

They want to be told how beautiful they are, and in our culture to validate you need to have red sparkling lengha with the gold jewellry. A white gown in a registry office does not quite cut it.

The comment about wearing nice suits for lunches and dinners is not enough. If the rest of the girl's female peers have had Anand Karaj then they must keep up with them. Female group think is very powerful, males tend to be more individualistic in their thinking.

If you use Facebook, you see this validation all the time from females. They change their profile pics and there is over 100 likes and comments about how beautiful they are or how amazing they look by other other females ( whether they actually mean it is another matter).

[Singh, Mahan]

I have not followed this topic here. Someone may have already posted the guide lines prepared by the Sikh Council U.K.. However, a clearly written version can be seen at the Sikh Siyasat website..

In that write up a coloured chart showing “The Steps to be Taken When Booking an Anand Karaj” is also given at the end.

To read click at the link below

http://sikhsiyasat.net/2015/08/30/sikh-council-uk-issues-advisory-to-uk-gurdwaras-on-anand-karaj-protocols/

[Quantavius]

Male wiring is very different from female wiring.

You are correct in that females always require more validation as they are more social than males.

A female dreams about their big day since they were little girls. They want to be the centre of attention, the groom is just another accessorie.

They want to be told how beautiful they are, and in our culture to validate you need to have red sparkling lengha with the gold jewellry. A white gown in a registry office does not quite cut it.

The comment about wearing nice suits for lunches and dinners is not enough. If the rest of the girl's female peers have had Anand Karaj then they must keep up with them. Female group think is very powerful, males tend to be more individualistic in their thinking.

If you use Facebook, you see this validation all the time from females. They change their profile pics and there is over 100 likes and comments about how beautiful they are or how amazing they look by other other females ( whether they actually mean it is another matter).

Well, you have a good point there. Males are definitely more individualistic. They don't really care what others think and other males couldn't care less how the marriage takes place, as long as there's good food, entertainment and if you're a drinker, some booze. LOL! OTOH they're not that individualistic. We've got our group think too. For example, men (who drink) will make sure the will be plenty of booze less they be accused of being stingy. I think it boils down to priorities. Men couldn't care less on the setting of the wedding. You could have it out in the middle of a soccer field and they coudn't care less. As long as there is good food and entertainment, that's all that matters.

Yes I've noticed that women are far more active in FB then men. Some are so in love their reflection so they'll post like a million pictures of themselves. It's just fascinating to see so many people so in love with their looks. Some will post various pictures in various poses..."that faraway look while thinking of something", "that smiling face while posing with some friends at a fancy diner", "while working at the computer at work", "a million selfies"....etc, etc. Men OTOH will post pictures of say, a bottle of beer. LOL!

PS They want to be told how beautiful they are? Thats funny! LOL! Red sparkling lengha with gold jewellry? Wow! Are you a wedding planner by any chance? LOL!

[garch]

Whats disgraceful, is on facebook posts, hippy liberal lefty sikhs, have even made comments such as...."anand karaj for only sikhs? Wait wats next, anand karaj for only amritdharis?"

This is how stupid the ppl within our kaum are! They dont even know, that anand karaj's WERE ONLY FOR amritdharis originally.

Stupid are those that challenge the rehit maryada; throwing the panth into disrepute, these issues have already been resolved by qualified gurmukhs.

Get on with improving our jeevans and stop shoveling the same old crap.

[DTF]

MISTERRSINGH:

If I was a white guy who wanted to marry a Sikh girl and all I had to do was memorise verses from the Sikh scriptures and regurgitate them infront of a priest in order to make the marriage official, I'd struggle to keep a straight face.

If the sanctity of the Anand Karaj hadn't already been adversely affected, this'll be pushing things towards "sham" territory.

I'm amazed how Sikhs have jumped on this like it's a magical solution to this issue.

Bhai Sahib Ji i understand your valid concerns but I strongly support educational parchar about Sikhi as a must for all couples regardless of background. It will reinforce knowledge of what Sikhi is all about and why the couples should be active members of the Sikh community and also raise their children as Sikhs. Though undoubtedly a few crooks might creep through the net the overall effect will be overwhelmingly beneficial to the Sikh Panth.

MISTERRSINGH:

The problem is we're a minority as it is. Our numbers aren't the strongest.

We can't play at this stuff. We don't have that luxury at all. This is a half measure; a sticking plaster over a gaping wound. If I had my way I'd go the whole nine yards and insist the Akal Takhat pass a universal ruling that only those who've taken Amrit can have an Anand Karaj. Sure, it's throwing the kaka out with the bathwater, but then we'd see how many are truly serious about Sikhi. It'd punish those who have an affinity for Sikhi who aren't Gursikh (amongst other knock-on issues), but at least we wouldn't be open to accusations of double standards or racism, etc.

There's just so many related issues that branch off from this seemingly basic problem; issues that will have a long lasting impact on things beyond the Anand Karaj.

Oh well, I suppose all religions and philosophies go through periods of change where the problems and issues of the age affect them. It's to be expected as the years roll by. I shouldn't get too caught up in these shenanigans, I'm sure wiser and more knowledgeable Sikhs than I have a plan.

I agree with you Bhai Sahib that people are simply not factoring the reality that in Diaspora societies we are surrounded by a 99% non-Sikh population (indeed even so in India outside of Punjab).

However, I believe that this education about Sikhi is a step in the right direction.

Anand Karaj being reserved for Amritdhari Sikhs might be a possible solution so long as a Sikh Marriage Blessing is available as an alternative at Gurdwara for all those others that desire their marriage to blessed at a Gurdwara. Does Guru Sahib (Shabad Bani) feel insulted or suffer Beadbi depending upon the convictions (that only Akaal Purakh can truly see) of those that circumambulate Guru Sahib? I personally do not believe so.

BALKAAR:

The only way we could ever be sure that the prospective bride and groom are practicing Sikhs is if they are Amritdhari.

Maybe, but that might generate an even worse problem. If it becomes mandatory for budding couples to have received Pahul, is it possible that non-Sikhs might take Amrit so that they can then marry a Sikh? How will these infiltrators be weeded out? A test? We will just run into the same problem all over again. Perhaps we should just make the whole thing so protracted and complicated for those not of our people that the non-Sikh decides they would rather bail and give up than continue with the marriage, lol.

Balkaar Singh Ji i think you rightly identify a lot of issues. Restricting Anand Karaj to those that profess to be Amritdhari like Sukhbir Badal whilst alienating the 90% of Sikhs that are sehajdhari and the 5% of that are Kesdhari non-Amritdhari's without offering the 95% majority of the community at least a Sikh Marriage Blessing as suggested would be a total recipe for long term disaster to our Panth's demographics.

From a certain date onwards anyone who takes Amrit should have their picture taken on the day they took Pahul, and in the picture they should be holding that day's newspaper clearly showing that particular day's headline, you know, like those weight loss before and after pictures, lmao.

I actually wouldn't put it past some people to fake Gursikhi (externally at least) in order to bypass the requirement.

True. We should do our best to explain the benefits of the Truth of Sikhi but we can't really act as the thought police as only Akaal Purakh can judge.

RANJEET01:

A lot of good points made,maybe the best solution would be to have only Amritdharis have Anand Karaj.

Speaking for myself, I think that if decided so by the Sarbat Khalsa that could be reluctantly supported however, with the vital fallback that all sehajdhari, kesdhari and other couples that desire for their marriage to be blessed at a Gurdwara are still able to receive a Sikh Marriage Blessing at their local Gurdwara at the very least.

STARSTRIKER:

They dont even know, that anand karaj's were only for amritdharis originally.

Bro this is what anti-Sikh opponents of Singh Sabha ideology like to portray in some books. However, the reality is that sehajdhari and kesdhari Sikhs have always been accommodated in Anand Karaj and furthermore to this day couples where both spouses are from non-Sikh backgrounds are blessed in matrimony via Anand Karaj. Given how Hindu and Muslim marriages are predicated on money and the burden they impose upon the poor, it would break my heart if such couples were turned away in the future.

Bhai Sarbjit Singh Rangila, Bhai Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale, Bhai Panthpreet Singh Khalsa have also bought thousands into Sikhi via support for their subsidised Anand Karaj seva.

JSINGHNZ:

Anand Karaj has always been for Sikhs and never only for Amritdhari's "originally".

Agreed brother but remember that Anand Karaj in of itself is an affirmation (if sincerely proferred) that the 2 participants are indeed Sikhs.

You do realise thats wat they r doin thugger, thats wat i said initally on other topics n threads. 'misterrsingh' jus scoffed at the idea. Jagraj singh frm basic of sikhi has been sayin this for a loooong time. Prior to wedding, every1 (sikh/non sikh) must do an anand karaj course. Its wat the sikh council have now proposed now too.

Bro i don't think MisterrSingh Ji scoffed at the idea but rather had reservations as to how it too could easily be breached by insincere parties. But you are absolutely right to support this education about Sikhi to all couples (regardless of background) as only by educating people about the Truth of Sikhi will they believe in it and become a part of the Gurdwara Sangat and thus raise their children as Sikhs if we handle everything sensibly seeking to include rather than alienate. The Sikh Council's advisory is emphatic that youth cannot turn up to protest and block as that is very counter-productive to the interests of the Sikh Panth moving forwards.

SIKHISTAN:

And all Sikhs are supposed to be Amritdharis after 1699

Brother all Sikhs are meant to strive to become Amritdhari's but it is counter-productive to our own interests as Sikhs for the 95% majority of the Panth that are sehajdhari and kesdhari to be excluded from the Panth (as not being Sikhs according to your definition).

HRMAN:

Sir (we) are on the path of brahmins , then next (we) will say Only amritdhari can enter darbar hall ,Only amritdhari can read Guru Granth Sahib , Only Amritdhari can have langar at gurudwara .

This is not Sikhi ,Guru Granth sahibji is not for so called "Sikhs" only .its universal thats why Guru sahib included the contribution from (Gurmukhs and Bhagats of previously) Hindu (or) Muslim (parentage) ....You ppl are doing just opposite ,you are doing beadbi of Guru Sahib .

Bhai Sahib Ji i agree with the intent of your message. I can sincerely vouch that MisterrSingh is not part of the biprenwaad element determined to make Sikhi as small and microscopic a population as possible but was rather pointing out his fears for our Panth's future.

I absolutely share your pain and frustration at where it seems some elements of the Panth want to lead the Panth.

I strongly and fervently feel Anand Karaj should be made the number one mode for marriage within India as it would free hundreds of millions of poor families from the onerous financial requirements imposed by Hindu and Muslim marriages and that the same could be a springboard for millions to become new Sikhs as was the case at the height of Singh Sabha parchar in the first four decades of the 20th century.

Just to add Veer Ji that the message of Gurbani is consistent and Dhan Dhan Baba Kabir Ji Maharaj, Dhan Dhan Baba Ravidas Ji Maharaj and Dhan Dhan Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj, for example, despite being born to Hindu and Muslim parents all roundly rejected everything about Hinduism and Islam and condemned both Hinduism and Islam as evil ideologies built upon slavery and oppression. Ancestry is irrelevant and conviction is everything in Sikhi.

I think it's more for the people who don't want to convert, but end up going along with their Sikh partner in order to fulfil a religious obligation to him / her and their family. Basically, blind adherence to a "ritual" that holds no meaning to either party, but one that's seen as "the thing to do" because it's always been done. The same mentality, it could be argued, is shared by Panjabi Sikhs, but then that's why I think if we are having a test, it should be for everyone.

***

BTW, when would this test occur? On the wedding day itself? And what would happen if the test was failed? Would the granthi send everyone home? Would there be a re-test?

Brother, as far as I understand the course is for everyone (as it should be). Failure to commit to or understand Sikhi would mean the option of a Sikh Marriage blessing would be offered. Importantly people turning up in masks and hoodies to block a wedding being blessed at a Gurdwara would be avoided as that would have been disastrous in the long term had that been allowed to continue. Even a willingness to participate without full conviction or understanding shows an element of respect for one's partner's faith in Sikhi and via educational parchar that can be built upon into translating that into a sincere belief that Sikhi and Sarbat da Bhala are vital for the betterment of the world we live in.

If they don't want to convert, why is there even a conversation on allowing the marriage to be allowed in the Gurdwara at all? I always thought the reason for not allowing such marriages in the first place is that because one of the partners are not Sikhs.

Anand Karaj in of itself has always been an affirmation that both parties are Sikh. This is an attempt to gauge a couple's sincerity on that.

non-practicising Sikhs

Bhai Sahib i agree that there may be cultural Sikhs who have such an agenda but there also others (including Amritdhari GurSikhs) who are absolutely horrified at the suggestions that a Gurdwara would close it's doors to those who wish for their marriage to be blessed at a Gurdwara (as opposed to any other religious or secular institution).

Maybe I'm slightly liberal but I would genuinely like to see hundred of millions of Anand Karaj's throughout India and the world whereby two erstwhile non-Sikh spouses come into Sikhi and escape the lies and financial obligations imposed upon the poor by Hinduism, Islam and Christianity. Sikhi can be hundred of millions strong in a short amount of time this way with a new expanded Khalsa Fauj of millions able to do seva globally for the poor and the oppressed as a consequence.

I recognise that may not be the path on which we are headed on currently given the determination of a small but vocal minority to turn Sikhi into a small exclusive biprenwaad cult practice that continually encourages the exlcusion of people from it's ranks (rather than the opposite as our opponents do to their advantage and our consequent disadvantage as a small minority).

So lets get this straight. One partner refuses to convert. So some sort of test is administered. And if they pass that test, they're allowed to get married?

Despite one partner still not being a Sikh?

If a person says they are a new Sikh, adopts the name Singh or Kaur, can demonstrate knowledge of Sikhi and confirm their conviction of it and gets married by way of Anand Karaj ... what more do you possibly want them to do bro?

[Quantavius]

Anand Karaj in of itself has always been an affirmation that both parties are Sikh. This is an attempt to gauge a couple's sincerity on that.

No it isn't.

If a person says they are a new Sikh, adopts the name Sikh or Kaur, can demostrate knowledge of Sikhi and confirm their conviction of it and gets married by way of Anand Karaj ... what more do you possibly want them to do bro?

You have to take amrit. No 2 ways around this.

[Ranjeet01]

Well, you have a good point there. Males are definitely more individualistic. They don't really care what others think and other males couldn't care less how the marriage takes place, as long as there's good food, entertainment and if you're a drinker, some booze. LOL! OTOH they're not that individualistic. We've got our group think too. For example, men (who drink) will make sure the will be plenty of booze less they be accused of being stingy. I think it boils down to priorities. Men couldn't care less on the setting of the wedding. You could have it out in the middle of a soccer field and they coudn't care less. As long as there is good food and entertainment, that's all that matters.

Yes I've noticed that women are far more active in FB then men. Some are so in love their reflection so they'll post like a million pictures of themselves. It's just fascinating to see so many people so in love with their looks. Some will post various pictures in various poses..."that faraway look while thinking of something", "that smiling face while posing with some friends at a fancy diner", "while working at the computer at work", "a million selfies"....etc, etc. Men OTOH will post pictures of say, a bottle of beer. LOL!

PS They want to be told how beautiful they are? Thats funny! LOL! Red sparkling lengha with gold jewellry? Wow! Are you a wedding planner by any chance? LOL!

It comes from going on many shopping excursions with female relatives. I somehow get lumbered into going. If you want to learn how to haggle for a bargain, some of our bibian are the best in the business.

[Quantavius]

The word Sikh owes its origin to the language Pali – one of the languages of the common people in 15th century India, and is directly derived from the word Sikkha – In very simple terms it means “a disciple” –– a disciple of the Guru and more specifically, a disciple of Guru Nanak.

http://sikhhistory.haraman.org/sikh-history-the-origin-and-beliefs-of-sikhs/