Quran Found Before Prophets Time

[Balkaar]

Furthermore if you ever ask a scholar as to why there are verses in the Quran which refer to the subjucation and killing of non-believers, then he will probably say that those passages relating to when Muhammed and his followers were being attacked by Quraysh and other tribes.

Yet the question from that arises as to whether the Quran is meant to be a divine revelation or a history book?

Actually, those more questionable passages were written in Madinah when Muhammad established himself as an autocrat.

The Surahs of the Quran are not ordered chronologically, but by length. They can be separated into one of two categories: The Makkiyah, those written in Makkah when Muhammad and his followers existed in a state of aggrieved ignominy, and the Madiniyyah, those written in Madina where Muhammad acquired some semblance of power. Those revelations written earlier in Makkah are more subdued and peaceful, which is to be expected, considering that their author was hardly in a comfortable position whereby he could afford to antagonize his enemies any more than necessary. But when he became ascendant later in Madinah, he was at liberty to disclose his more sanguinary opinions which he had hithero kept secret.

Apparently, the discrepancy between the earlier peaceful verses and their violent successors didn't go unnoticed, because Muhammad went on to have another 'revelation' which included the so called 'verse of abrogation':

None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things? —Qur'an 2:106,

So to account for his blunder, Muhammad basically told his followers that Allah changed his mind about the business. Utter nonsense.

[jkvlondon]

Waheguru Ji ka khalsa waheguru Ji ki fateh. Seems the online sangat is quite knowledgeable when it comes to Islam / muhammed. Ask yourself do you know the names of our guru sahibs; panj pyare and chaar sahibzade?

Maybe it's me can someone explain why they as sikhs have so much interest in Islam?

veer ji

Guru Gobind SIngh ji da hukham is to learn about other peoples faiths and languages so you can understand their worldview and traditions , of course focus should always remain on Gurbani and all learned material should be judged in light of that . Khalsa are of the universe and as such accept all peoples and understand all whilst remaining niarey .

[WaljinderSingh]

veer ji

Guru Gobind SIngh ji da hukham is to learn about other peoples faiths and languages so you can understand their worldview and traditions , of course focus should always remain on Gurbani and all learned material should be judged in light of that . Khalsa are of the universe and as such accept all peoples and understand all whilst remaining niarey .

In that case put the facts in one post with bullet points rather than this

' Ladeevaar veechaar '

This thread has become sadly I am afraid a masaledar behas than education

[Balkaar]

Waheguru Ji ka khalsa waheguru Ji ki fateh. Seems the online sangat is quite knowledgeable when it comes to Islam / muhammed. Ask yourself do you know the names of our guru sahibs; panj pyare and chaar sahibzade?

Maybe it's me can someone explain why they as sikhs have so much interest in Islam?

Yes. I know the names of our Gurus, our Panj Piaare, our Chaar Sahibzade and the five Takhats. May I ask, does my admitting this to you mean you will take me more seriously?

Well brother, I am personally interested in discussing Islam because it is one of the most backward and dangerous ideologies in the world today, and if we are to protect our young people from being ensnared in its tendrils (as many of them, particularly girls, are), we have to let them know the truth about it. Too many of our people are in thrall to the stupid and childish notion that all religions, including Islam, are paths to the same God. A set of ideas which completely contradicts Gursikhi on so many issues cannot be true.

[gsingh12345]

Waheguru Ji ka khalsa waheguru Ji ki fateh. Balkaar veer and jkv London penji my understanding is that it's optional to learn about other faiths. There's so much to learn about sikhi and we have little time to take it in and understand. Our focus should be sikhi. Respect people of other faiths. Bhuk chuk maaf ji.

[WaljinderSingh]

Waheguru Ji ka khalsa waheguru Ji ki fateh. Balkaar veer and jkv London penji my understanding is that it's optional to learn about other faiths. There's so much to learn about sikhi and we have little time to take it in and understand. Our focus should be sikhi. Respect people of other faiths. Bhuk chuk maaf ji.

I second that.

[SheikhYoBooty]

Nobody is dissing innocent people who are indoctrinated into any cult.

All peeps are saying is that they disagree with the Prophet Muhammad's pedophilia, terrorism, slave trading + rapes.

Truly what beautiful teachings from the Quran below

TheReligionofPeace.com
Guide to Understanding Islam

What does the
Religion of Peace
Teach About...

The Sex Life of the Prophet

Question:

Was Islam's "perfect man" sexually restrained?

Summary Answer:

The Quran (which was created and narrated by Prophet Muhammad) refers to Prophet Muhammad's life as "as beautiful pattern of conduct for anyone whose hope is in Allah" (33:21) and "an exalted standard of character" (68:4). Yet, thanks to Allah's extraordinary interest in his personal sex life (as immortalized in the Quran) the prophet of Islam had sex with just about anyone he pleased.

Although the Qur'an didn't appear to have enough space for topics like universal love and brotherhood (which Muslims sometimes insist are there, but aren't), the list of sexual partners that Prophet Muhammad was entitled to is detailed more than once, sometimes in categories and sometimes in reference to specific persons (ie. Zaynab and Mary).

Prophet Muhammad was married to thirteen women, including eleven at one time. He relegated them to either consecutive days or (according to some accounts) all in one night. He had sex with a 9-year-old girl and married his adopted son's wife (after arranging a quick divorce). On top of that, Prophet Muhammad had a multitude of slave girls and concubines with whom he had sex - sometimes on the very days in which they had watched their husbands and fathers die at the hands of his army.

So, by any realistic measure, the creator of the world's most sexually restrictive religion was also one of the most sexually indulgent characters in history.

The Qur'an:

Allah managed to hand down quite a few "revelations" that sanctioned Prophet Muhammad's personal pursuit of sex to the doubters around him. Interestingly they have become part of the the eternal, infallible word of the Qur'an, to be memorized by generations of Muslims for whom they have no possible relevance.

Qur'an (33:37) - "But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed." No doubt millions of young Muslims, trying to outdo one another at memorizing the Qur'an, have wondered about what this verse means and why it is there. In fact, this is a "revelation" of convenience that Allah just happened to hand down at a time when Muhammad lusted after his daughter-in-law, Zaynab, - a state of affairs that disturbed local customs. The verse "commands" Muhammad to marry the woman (following her husband's gracious divorce). As for why this should be part of the eternal word of God...?

Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those slavegirls whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who fled with you; and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess in order that no blame may attach to you; " This is another special command that Muhammad handed down to himself that allows virtually unlimited sex, divinely sanctioned by Allah. One assumes that this "revelation" was meant to assuage some sort of disgruntlement in the community over Muhammad's hedonism.

Qur'an (33:51) - "You may put off for sex whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased" This is in reference to a situation in which Muhammad's wives were grumbling about his preference for sleeping with a slave girl (Mary the Copt) instead of them. Accordingly, Muhammad may sleep with whichever wife (or slave) he wishes without having to hear the others complain... as revealed in Allah's literal and perfect words to more than a billion Muslims.

Qur'an (66:1-5) - "O Prophet! Why do you ban (for yourself) that which Allah has made sexually lawful to you, seeking to please your wives?... Allah has already ordained for you, the dissolution of your oaths" Another remarkably personal passage of sexual convenience in a book billed as Allah's perfect and eternal message to mankind. Muhammad was caught sleeping with a slave woman on the night that he was supposed to be with one of his wives. Initially promising to be faithful, "Allah" tells his prophet to break that promise and enjoy sex with his slaves. If his wives objected then "it may be if he divorced you (all) that his Lord will give him instead of you, wives better than you."

Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those married slavegirls whom your right hands possess." Allah even permitted Muhammad and his men to have sex with married slaves, such as those captured in battle.

From the Hadith:

Muslim (8:3309) - Muhammad consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was only nine. (See also Bukhari 58:234 and many other places). No where in the reliable Hadith or Sira is there any other age given. Other references are Sahih Bukhari 3896, 5158 and 3311.

Additional Notes:

Prophet Muhammad's sexual antics are an embarrassment to those Muslims who are aware of them. This is particularly so for their prophet's consummation of his marriage to child wife Aisha when she was only nine years of age. The thought of a 54-year-old Arab man called Prophet Muhammad having sex when aged 54 and bathing with a young girl of nine years age is intensely unpleasant and it reflects the disgusting character of a sexual glutton rather than a holy man. Critics even allege that Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile as a consequence of him sexually consummating his marriage with Aisha when was only 9years old and he was aged 54.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTeAB4l0KCM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNCz9MXmcsw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbD2BZZsMbY

[Pakandi baba]

You have taken this Pangti out of context. And it's not surprising since you have read that incorrect English translation. Read Prof Sahib Singh Jee's teeka and then read the entire Shabad, it is full of metaphors using Islamic terminology. Read each and every Tukh from that Shabad how Guru Sahib is using Islamic words and redefining them in light of Gurmat. For example, it says in that Shabad "Sach Nivaj, Yakeen Musala" meaning: Vaheguru De Naam nu apni Namaz Bana te rab te yakeen nu apna Mussala bana(make the Naam of Vaheguru your Nimaz and make trust in Vaheguru as your prayer mat). And the whole shabad goes on like this using metaphor after metaphor. The tukh you mentions means as Prof Sahib Singh Jee has translated it is "In your mind do Kamaee of the Naam of Vaheguru, this for you is the wisdom of Quran and Katebs(bible, torah)." And anyone who has read Quran and Katebs knows they don't talk about Naam. So this is obviously not talking about the actual Quran or Katebs.

Some Back ground info is needed for the readers here: The theory behind this Shabad is that this Shabad of Guru Arjun Dev Jee was addressed to those Sikhs who were previously of Islamic background so Guru Sahib using Islamic terminology and redefining them in order to explain the message of Gurmat that for you this path of Gurmat/Sikhi is your new Makkah, Haj, Namaz, Quran, Mussala, Sharah, Bhisht, Hoors etc. During the time of Guru Arjun Dev Jee, half of the Sikh converts came from Islamic background. Sheikh Sirhindi who is regarded as the Mujjadid(reviver) of Islam was alarmed by seeing so many Muslims becoming Sikhs. So he used his power and influence to have Guru Arjun Dev Jee become Shaheed. Even Jahangir in Tauzke Janangiri mentions that the reason why he executed Guru Arjun dev Jee was because many Muslims had become his followers.

As for Guru Gobind Singh Jee's Bani, that Shabad(ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ) is a part of our Daily Nitnem. This Shabad is read out in Rehras Sahib by all Amritdharis. Furthermore, this Shabad is read out in all Gurdwaras around the world including Sri Darbar Singh and Panj Takhts. So it is undisputed fact that this is Gurbani. This Shabad is very important for Sikhs because it strengthens our religious boundaries in straight forward words for those misguided Sikhs who do not mind becoming a Hardeghi Chamach(A spoon used in all foods) as Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha called those Sikhs who say they are believers in the Guru but go around following Vedas, Bible, Quran and rituals and festivals of other religions.

When you disown Bani of your father(Guru Gobind Singh Jee) but are tirelessly defending Bani of Mohammad one cannot help but nod his head in apsos and disappointment of how much you have mixed up your priorities.

Look, those that oppose the Dasam Granth do it out of love for the Guru Sahib as they can't fathom such wording used in Charitropakhyan to be attributed to Mahraaj ji, same with those who defend it, they do it with love for him and say the definitions are not as they appear. So I'm not here to discuss that.

In simple terms, all the Gurus said that one should follow the path you follow, be it Christian, Islam, etc etc

Those who understand will, those that do not, won't. Jisnu toon janai so jan jaanai. All the Guru Sahibs preached tolerance, and never once ridiculed any scripture, instead respected and stated that all Bhagats, Gurus, Prophets are all sent by the ONE God. Now for some clearly when we go to the Sacha Darbar and are questioned to why they chose to ridicule the faith of another and their scripture whilst claiming, we are TRUE Sikhs of the Guru Sahibs and practice what they preached, well the outcome is obvious.

[SheikhYoBooty]

Pakandi bro i agree with that Guru Sahibaan were not Hindu Khatri Kings in previous life.

And I agree with u that peeps saying that some of the charitars are autobiographical like 16, 22, 23, 24 is out of order.

But bro look what the Quran says above+below + please dont defend this pedophile slave trader Prophet Muhammad.

U are a good dude + u don't wanna attack innocent peeps. Props for that.

But Prophet Muhammad was a pedophile slave trader rapist who doesn't deserve any respect at all. Fact.

Guru Sahib never said follow the bs you were born + raised with as they totally rejected the janeu + all falsehood

[WaljinderSingh]

Dasam Granth Bani in its current form should not be challenged - take this as a warning.