Question For Gusikhs/gurmukhs

[KhoonKaBadlaKhoon]

Anyone who touches Guru Granth Sahib Ji, regardless if even just one ang, in my opinion is no Sikh. For or against Ragmala. No better than the Indian army or Hindus who have attacked Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It truly does seem like now a days Singhs are only good for fighting each other. Can't recall the last time any Jatha hum huma ke turned out to face our enemies. These debates should be put aside until we can learn to debate like logical adults.

[Guest Jacfsing2]

Anyone who touches Guru Granth Sahib Ji, regardless if even just one ang, in my opinion is no Sikh. For or against Ragmala. No better than the Indian army or Hindus who have attacked Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It truly does seem like now a days Singhs are only good for fighting each other. Can't recall the last time any Jatha hum huma ke turned out to face our enemies. These debates should be put aside until we can learn to debate like logical adults.

It didn't happen since 1978 Visakhi. The Maryada stands that all Saroops of Guru Sahib MUST have RAGMALA. "Since there is a difference of opinion within the Panth on this issue, NOBODY should dare to write or print a copy of SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI excluding the RAAG MALA" (except it's not really a difference of opinion, it's just AKJ vs Everybody Else).

[singh_khalsa]

I'm glad you brought this up. Anti raag mala group have not ripped out angs but they did ink the raag mala. NOTE: this was nothing to do with AKJ, it was panthic scholars of that time who gathered together and were 100% sure raag mala was not bani. And guess where this happended? Akal Takth Sahib! They were panthic gursikh scholars who didn't assign themselves to any group. The tables have turned now, the majority believe in raag mala today, but it was the opposite then. It just happens to be that out of the main groups of today it is AKJ who doesn't believe. In those times panthic sikhs didn't really belong to a group but to the panth and put faith only in Guru Sahib, rather then a particular sant.

So the scholars (again not linked with akj at all) inked the raag mala as they did 100% believed raag mala was kachi bani. They had real proper knowledge, gained after many decades, not like us.

Now let's look at the extremist pro raag mala "sikhs". They believed in the gurbani that they burned! They did it intentionally. Where as the scholars only inked that portion due to believing it was definately kachi bani. So those that burned all those saroops without raag mala, knowing it was sachi bani, well I can't imagine what they will have to face in dargah.

Ram rai INTENTIONALLY changed one word of gurbani to satisfy the moghuls, ram rai knew he was changing sach bani and he knew what he was changing was infact gurbani.

Panthic scholars GENUINELY believed raag mala was kachi bani and not fit to be in Guru Granth Sahib. They only inked on that occasion in a panthic setting with all types of panthic scholars present.

You have the nerve to try and justify burning of puratan saroops.

p.s. pro raag mala have no answer to MANY puratan saroops being without raag mala which were written decades/centuries before Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh was even born!

Whereas saroops with raag mala typically contain other kachi bani (ratan mala etc) which was removed by khalsa panth. It's only, for some reason, that raag mala became a big deal. The panth was about to remove raag mala along with the other kachi bani contained in some saroops at the end. There was no opposition to removing things like ratan mala, but removing raag mala turned into a big controversy for some reason.

[Guest]

I'm glad you brought this up. Anti raag mala group have not ripped out angs but they did ink the raag mala. NOTE: this was nothing to do with AKJ, it was panthic scholars of that time who gathered together and were 100% sure raag mala was not bani. And guess where this happended? Akal Takth Sahib! They were panthic gursikh scholars who didn't assign themselves to any group. The tables have turned now, the majority believe in raag mala today, but it was the opposite then. It just happens to be that out of the main groups of today it is AKJ who doesn't believe. In those times panthic sikhs didn't really belong to a group but to the panth and put faith only in Guru Sahib, rather then a particular sant.

So the scholars (again not linked with akj at all) inked the raag mala as they did 100% believed raag mala was kachi bani. They had real proper knowledge, gained after many decades, not like us.

Now let's look at the extremist pro raag mala "sikhs". They believed in the gurbani that they burned! They did it intentionally. Where as the scholars only inked that portion due to believing it was definately kachi bani. So those that burned all those saroops without raag mala, knowing it was sachi bani, well I can't imagine what they will have to face in dargah.

Ram rai INTENTIONALLY changed one word of gurbani to satisfy the moghuls, ram rai knew he was changing sach bani and he knew what he was changing was infact gurbani.

Panthic scholars GENUINELY believed raag mala was kachi bani and not fit to be in Guru Granth Sahib. They only inked on that occasion in a panthic setting with all types of panthic scholars present.

You have the nerve to try and justify burning of puratan saroops.

p.s. pro raag mala have no answer to MANY puratan saroops being without raag mala which were written decades/centuries before Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh was even born!

Whereas saroops with raag mala typically contain other kachi bani (ratan mala etc) which was removed by khalsa panth. It's only, for some reason, that raag mala became a big deal. The panth was about to remove raag mala along with the other kachi bani contained in some saroops at the end. There was no opposition to removing things like ratan mala, but removing raag mala turned into a big controversy for some reason.

Again GIVE SOME PROOF OF THEM BURNING SAROOPS! I gave proof of the anti raag mala Crew defacing a whole ang and I will give proof where they ripped out raag mala.

http://frontlinepunjabiyouth.blogspot.ca/2007/12/polite-warning-to-all-raagmala-bashers.html?m=1

In this post it shows that the uk anti raag mala Crew ripped out raag mala in Gutkas and still don't know if they did rip out in maharaj Ji.

The granths your talking about are the ones that have been created in the mid 1800s when the British wanted to mislead the Khalsa.

The sant samaj was the biggest society of saints back then. The whole of sant samaj agreed raag mala is gurbani. You can't say that there were the majority the anti raag mala Crew. On these panthic meeting were the likes of baba band Singh nanaksar vale invited? Or sant bishan singh Taksal vale or sant sundar Singh bhindra vale? No they only invited the people who had the same ideology as them.

[MisterrSingh]

Neither side is going to say, "You know, you're right. I'll abandon my jatha-baji ways. I've seen the light!" So just agree to disagree and move on. The original question posed by the OP was decent in itself.

[Guest Jacfsing2]

Neither side is going to say, "You know, you're right. I'll abandon my jatha-baji ways. I've seen the light!" So just agree to disagree and move on. The original question posed by the OP was decent in itself.

This isn't an argument on something small, rather it is an argument on the only one who gives us life: Guru Sahib himself. Ram Rai was excommunicated for changing one word of Guru Sahib. Do you know just how serious Guru Sahib and each of his Angs are? More valuable than everything in the world put together.

[MisterrSingh]

This isn't an argument on something small, rather it is an argument on the only one who gives us life: Guru Sahib himself. Ram Rai was excommunicated for changing one word of Guru Sahib. Do you know just how serious Guru Sahib and each of his Angs are? More valuable than everything in the world put together.

Start a new topic titled "Raag Mala or Not?"

[Sa1nam]

This isn't an argument on something small, rather it is an argument on the only one who gives us life: Guru Sahib himself. Ram Rai was excommunicated for changing one word of Guru Sahib. Do you know just how serious Guru Sahib and each of his Angs are? More valuable than everything in the world put together.

In before closure xD

Yes but like someone said, either you call Bhai Randeer singh a lier or Sant Kartar Singh Bhindranwale a lier, no ones going to do so, though it obvious what both sides think. The issue remains one side has to be right, i know which side i stand on, the question is believing in or not believing in Raag mala and having zero Jeevan, being trapped to Kaam kroad and the other 3 vices, not having a solid Nitnem, or waking early to do your Simran abiaas, stop you from going to Naraak.

I can answer that gurbani says educated and un-educated people can get to bruhm giaan, its not predicated on you knowing punjabi its comes down to who reaches Naam, who ever does is given the full knowledge of Lock and parlock (physical universe and the unseen universe of vaheguru)

So get to less debating and figure out the vices that trouble you and get working on ridding those from your life. As we are judged on the thoughts we have in this short period on earth.

[Kira]

can someone kindly explain to me why there is hostility towards this ang. I'm not an expert on Gurbani so im a bit confused by this.

[Balkaar]

can someone kindly explain to me why there is hostility towards this ang. I'm not an expert on Gurbani so im a bit confused by this.

Well Kira the only jathebandi of any significance which disputes the Raagmala is the AKJ, on the grounds that there are several Raags used throughout Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which are not mentioned in the Raagmala, and because no distinction is made between Raags and Raginis in the rest of Gurbani as in the Raagmala. They claim its authorship is also ambiguous because there is no indication of which Patshaah or Bhagat authored it.

I personally find it odd that they should object to it on these grounds considering their Jatha does not even perform Kirtan according to Raag Maryada.

We can debate and debate which group of 19th/20th century panthic scholars supports it and which don't. Neither the AKJ nor the Tat Khalsa movement can trace their origins to Puraatan times.

The Damdami Taksaal on the other hand, can. It's lineage reaches all the way back to Guru Gobind Singh's time, and to Sri Damdama Sahib, the center for the dissemination of Santhiya and study of Gurbani in the old Sikh world. Their Samparda has no doubt about Raagmala's veracity. I'd say their testimony carries more weight than the conjecturing of some individuals 200 years after it was said to have been written down.