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I am currently an organiser for Sikh events. My job role is organise events for Sikhs and also non Sikhs. This inlcudes trips to Sikh temples or museums. It is diffiuclt however to think of activities that will appeal to Sikh youth and also non sikhs.

At the moment I am thinking about a trip to Southall Temple. Can anyone reccomend the best times to visit? ie weekends and what times? . Aslo if anyone has any suggestions for Sikh related activities or events I could organise?

Its good you are organising these events. First thing you need to get straight is that a Gurdwara is not a 'temple'.

Personally, I'd take them to visit Park Avenue on a Sunday afternoon just after midday as it is far busier than Havelock and the experience I find is more suited to finding inner peace. For info, November 15, is when the Nagar Kirtan takes place in Southall for Guru Nanak Sahibs Gurpurab.

If non Sikhs want to experience meditation, take them to Park Avenue any day between 0400-0500 in the morning for Simran.

Outside of this there are many University Sikh soc events that take place frequently in and around London.

Then of course you have the Langar Seva Societies performing excellent work in London and the Midlands.

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Won't make a difference to the majority of the Sangat. Just gives more options for Anand Karajs, Akhand Paths,Sukhmani Paths, though it will create more problems with parking in an extremely congested area.

Its more than mere 'congestion' Ranjeet. It is actually 'history' unfolding right in front of our eyes but, as usual, we as a quom, are too asleep too see it.

It is, in a sense, deja vu. The conversations we're having today about ramgharia gurdwaras are the same our children will be having in 20 years time on the internet about the Arora / Khatri Gurdwaras being established in the UK by the Afghan Sikhs. Our children will log onto Sikh forums and ther'l be discussions about the problems associated with 'caste based' Gurdwaras. Just like is happening today, the sons and daughters of those Afghan Sikhs will say the jatts prevented them from entering their gurdwaras and they had no choice but to build their own ones. Just like is happening today most people will swallow their story and not pin the blame on them for creating those caste based Gurdwaras for no reason in the first place.

But thats the future. We're alive and allegedly awake today. We're living in a time where the news stoies are full of the desperate suffering of Sikhs in Afganistan and the discovery of dead Afghan Sikh bodies in shipping containers so shouldn't we be asking why on earth these Afghan sikhs think it is appropriate to spend tens of millions of dollars on a brand new gigantic Gurdwara when an aready stupendously giant Gurdwara already exists exactly 200 yards away ??????????

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Its more than mere 'congestion' Ranjeet. It is actually 'history' unfolding right in front of our eyes but, as usual, we as a quom, are too asleep too see it.

It is, in a sense, deja vu. The conversations we're having today about ramgharia gurdwaras are the same our children will be having in 20 years time on the internet about the Arora / Khatri Gurdwaras being established in the UK by the Afghan Sikhs. Our children will log onto Sikh forums and ther'l be discussions about the problems associated with 'caste based' Gurdwaras. Just like is happening today, the sons and daughters of those Afghan Sikhs will say the jatts prevented them from entering their gurdwaras and they had no choice but to build their own ones. Just like is happening today most people will swallow their story and not pin the blame on them for creating those caste based Gurdwaras for no reason in the first place.

But thats the future. We're alive and allegedly awake today. We're living in a time where the news stoies are full of the desperate suffering of Sikhs in Afganistan and the discovery of dead Afghan Sikh bodies in shipping containers so shouldn't we be asking why on earth these Afghan sikhs think it is appropriate to spend tens of millions of dollars on a brand new gigantic Gurdwara when an aready stupendously giant Gurdwara already exists exactly 200 yards away ??????????

Jags wats the name of this new afghan gurdwara? Id love to see wat it looks like. Also i think afghans tbf, r wanting a seperate gurdwara, probably bcoz their 1st language isnt panjabi, and only some of them can speak panjabi. Most of them either speak pashtun or dari. I remember seeing on sikh channel a while back of inside their afghan gurdwaras, n most of the writing inside was in dari and the stage speakers all spoke english/dari/pashtun. But i agree tho, y bother building such huge gurdwaras, wen the money cud b better spent elsewhere.

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Ive jus realised by looking on google earth, that its that big unfinised building on king st. I mean it looks nice, but damn wat a load of money to spend tho!

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Jags wats the name of this new afghan gurdwara? Id love to see wat it looks like. Also i think afghans tbf, r wanting a seperate gurdwara, probably bcoz their 1st language isnt panjabi, and only some of them can speak panjabi. Most of them either speak pashtun or dari. I remember seeing on sikh channel a while back of inside their afghan gurdwaras, n most of the writing inside was in dari and the stage speakers all spoke english/dari/pashtun. But i agree tho, y bother building such huge gurdwaras, wen the money cud b better spent elsewhere.

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Ive jus realised by looking on google earth, that its that big unfinised building on king st. I mean it looks nice, but damn wat a load of money to spend tho!

should be helping afghan sikhs who are stuck in afghanistan, poor have no money, living in gudwara buildings, kids cant go to school. On the documentary they were complaining how afghan sikhs abroad arent helping them then they go build this.

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Its more than mere 'congestion' Ranjeet. It is actually 'history' unfolding right in front of our eyes but, as usual, we as a quom, are too asleep too see it.

It is, in a sense, deja vu. The conversations we're having today about ramgharia gurdwaras are the same our children will be having in 20 years time on the internet about the Arora / Khatri Gurdwaras being established in the UK by the Afghan Sikhs. Our children will log onto Sikh forums and ther'l be discussions about the problems associated with 'caste based' Gurdwaras. Just like is happening today, the sons and daughters of those Afghan Sikhs will say the jatts prevented them from entering their gurdwaras and they had no choice but to build their own ones. Just like is happening today most people will swallow their story and not pin the blame on them for creating those caste based Gurdwaras for no reason in the first place.

But thats the future. We're alive and allegedly awake today. We're living in a time where the news stoies are full of the desperate suffering of Sikhs in Afganistan and the discovery of dead Afghan Sikh bodies in shipping containers so shouldn't we be asking why on earth these Afghan sikhs think it is appropriate to spend tens of millions of dollars on a brand new gigantic Gurdwara when an aready stupendously giant Gurdwara already exists exactly 200 yards away ??????????

One of the observations I have is that these "divisions" are mainly a result of too much empowerment rather than lack of empowerment. This is where the ego come from.

People bleat on about caste division, but it is not really. It is more to do with particular animosities built over by partly stereotypes.

I do not see the "Singh Sabha/Ramgharia" divide as caste division, I see it as a Punjab/Kenya divide. I think that would probably be a more accurate divide.

This new Gurdwara built by Afghani Sikhs is part of the Diaspora divide.

However, what I have noticed that over time, these so called divides will disappear over time as the British identity takes over.

My local Gurdwara is a Ramgharia one and a lot of their sangat is made up of non-Ramgharias. Some of them live in my local area and if we follow this so called divide they would be going to Singh Sabha.

I have also seen "inter-caste" marriages and also "all-Jat" marriages too in this Gurdwara. I have seen the same at Singh Sabha too.

One of the ironies of the Gurdwara commitees is that we often mention how money hungry they are, they may discriminate who they have on their board, but they do not discriminate on who they marry. If we worry about non-Sikhs marrying at Gurdwarae , we fail to notice the mixed caste marriages taking place.

The test is to see if this new Gurdwara has Indian based/origin Khatri /Arora switch sangat attendance to the "Kabuli" Gurdwara. That would see if there is a caste divide.

If we see other backgrounds go there to whatever functions people want to arrange because bookings are full in Havelock /Park Avenue/ Ramgharias that will also tell you what regular Sangat thinks of these "caste divisions".

Apologies if I have used the word caste or Jat or Ramgharia or any words that offend anyone.

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That's an easy way for you to gloss over genuine and real grievances spanning a long period of time rather than reflect on your own communities part in creating this situation.

You are entitled to your view, which I think is an incorrect one.

We as a community are moving forward, just don't fall behind whilst you are trying to address whatever perceived aggrievance you may have.

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You are entitled to your view, which I think is an incorrect one.

We as a community are moving forward, just don't fall behind whilst you are trying to address whatever perceived aggrievance you may have.

I hope you are right. And I hope your people acknowledge and act on mistakes and the feedback of other Sikhs instead of teh usual dismissing everything being said.

And don't worry about me being left behind, I'm quite an adaptable cat. What you might want to be worrying about is living in lala land where no real change is taking place amongst your own lot but wishful thinking makes you think that it is.

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That's an easy way for you to gloss over genuine and real grievances spanning a long period of time rather than reflect on your own communities part in creating this situation.

I hope you are right. And I hope your people acknowledge and act on mistakes and the feedback of other Sikhs instead of teh usual dismissing everything being said.

And don't worry about me being left behind, I'm quite an adaptable cat. What you might want to be worrying about is living in lala land where no real change is taking place amongst your own lot but wishful thinking makes you think that it is.

What are you trying to say?

Why are you creating divisions?

It would be nice if you replaced all of that with 'we'.

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