It's Official:

[dallysingh101]

Well there were some great GurSikhs who served the British like Attar Singh, so it couldn't have purely been economically.

There were also great Sikhs who served Brits but then had a spiritual awakening and left to serve Sikhi. Sant Ishar Singh from Malwa is an example.

I think serving a foreign, occupying force who are playing all sorts of manipulative games with your people and faith (not to mention doing all sorts of dubious, greedy, selfish escapades in other foreign lands) isn't ever going to be the actions of the spiritually inclined.

[dallysingh101]

Look, what are you talking about? Even this sant excused himself of serving Brits as soon as he could.

Attar Singh left his village, Chima, after three months. Since he was not formally discharged from the army as yet, he decided to submit himself before army authorities at Abbotabad in Rawalpindi district (now in Pakistan) for completing the formalities required for his final discharge from the military. The Colonel and Commanding Officer of his unit was appreciative of his services and tried to persuade him not to leave the army, but Attar Singh did not relent and was finally granted the discharge he had sought.

Thus, he became totally free to pursue the Divine Mission of his life.

[InderjitS]

Well, if anyone is simple-minded, they'd struggle to do this.

Their simple brain would get 'overwhelmed' by complex situations, so they wouldn't even be in a position to comprehend the matter(s) at hand.

Then because they are simple, they wouldn't even get the intuition that they are way off the mark. You see dumb people doing this all the time, vehemently upholding/defending a position when information contradicting their stance is blatantly in their face.

Being simple minded makes you partially blind in a complex world.

I don't believe I mentioned what type of simple but thanks for the analysis.

What you mentioned about Jatts in an earlier post applies to all ethnic groups in the Sikh Diaspora:

'Those who have and are manipulating the faith for their own personal and tribal aggrandisement (past and present) will always be treacherous snakes, deserving of the highest contempt in my eyes'.

[jkvlondon]

I don't believe I mentioned what type of simple but thanks for the analysis.

What you mentioned about Jatts in an earlier post applies to all ethnic groups in the Sikh Diaspora:

'Those who have and are manipulating the faith for their own personal and tribal aggrandisement (past and present) will always be treacherous snakes, deserving of the highest contempt in my eyes'.

guys how about in light of gurmatta today we drop the lengthy diatribes on casteism , ta much appreciated

[dallysingh101]

I don't believe I mentioned what type of simple but thanks for the analysis.

What you mentioned about Jatts in an earlier post applies to all ethnic groups in the Sikh Diaspora:

'Those who have and are manipulating the faith for their own personal and tribal aggrandisement (past and present) will always be treacherous snakes, deserving of the highest contempt in my eyes'.

It's you being in denial again. All those problems people are crying about today in Panjab today are a direct consequence of Badal, a man who has built his empire on the back of jat caste loyalty in the scarcely concealed form of the Akali Dal.

Using this blind peasant solidarity, he's managed to infiltrate and corrupt almost every Sikh institute going. Thing with jats though, is that they've created this problem with their tribal clannishness and are amongst the ones suffering the most as a consequence. Talk about own goal. Then people wonder why we have the santa/banta stereotype. Then when you point out this ugly truth, they run around trying to ignore it or wildly point at others (like you are trying) to deflect from it.

Many jats feel like they are the only ones who should lead the panth (for whatever reason); well, we can all see what a grand job they've done with that...

If you hog all the seats of power and control (like jats have in Panjab), you shouldn't really act surprised when people call you out for doing such an appalling job in leading.

guys how about in light of gurmatta today we drop the lengthy diatribes on casteism , ta much appreciated

Why? It's at the very core of most our problems, back home and in the diaspora. We've been ignoring it for long enough.

It's high time we faced it square on.

[jkvlondon]

It's you being in denial again. All those problems people are crying about today in Panjab today are a direct consequence of Badal, a man who has built his empire on the back of jat caste loyalty in the scarcely concealed form of the Akali Dal.

Using this blind peasant solidarity, he's managed to infiltrate and corrupt almost every Sikh institute going. Thing with jats though, is that they've created this problem with their tribal clannishness and are amongst the ones suffering the most as a consequence. Talk about own goal. Then people wonder why we have the santa/banta stereotype. Then when you point out this ugly truth, they run around trying to ignore it or wildly point at others (like you are trying) to deflect from it.

Many jats feel like they are the only ones who should lead the panth (for whatever reason); well, we can all see what a grand job they've done with that...

If you hog all the seats of power and control (like jats have in Panjab), you shouldn't really act surprised when people call you out for doing such an appalling job in leading.

Why? It's at the very core of most our problems, back home and in the diaspora. We've been ignoring it for long enough.

It's high time we faced it square on.

OK let's do it:

KHALSA HAS ONLY ONE CASTE, ONE JAAT ...HUMANITY

I will not countenance Beadbhi of My Father by unthinking individual's who insult Khande da pahul by calling it water through their actions . Those who build Gurdwarey to honour their kul, jaat need to be beaten black and blue ...Dharamshala belongs to Akal Purakh alone and the praise of his qualities and actions .

Instead of putting it squarely on the individual's faults ,who is sitting and judging a whole swathe of people now ? there are many illustrious Gursikhs from the same group so not all is a black and white , individual's actions are what count or haven't you been paying attention to what Guru ji taught you. Yes there is a sad group of people who believe the sun shines out of their hoo-ha just bcos they are jat ... they serve their jaat rather than their Guru in this delusion you should feel pity at their ignorance and try to show them the better path ...

[dallysingh101]

Yes there is a sad group of people who believe the sun shines out of their hoo-ha just bcos they are jat ... they serve their jaat rather than their Guru in this delusion you should feel pity at their ignorance and try to show them the better path ...

This is no fringe, small group but a majority in that community and they are dragging the wider Sikh community straight down the drain as we speak.

They've hijacked Sikh institutes to serve their caste agenda. All the way to the top.

So this isn't a small, pitiful group, but a powerful one that has sadly manipulated things to have unparalleled influence on the panth. The results are plain for all to see. These people are not remotely interested in any better path. They know exactly what they are doing.

For the rest of you, if this isn't Waheguru plainly showing us the long-term negative consequences of adopting backwards, pendu, tribal thinking with your politics, I don't know what will wake you up?

Those who build Gurdwarey to honour their kul, jaat need to be beaten black and blue

Absolutely. As should those who do this discreetly, by hiding behind the Singh Sabha badge and throwing a few tokens in their committees - they also need to be called out. Who do they think they are fooling? And you should see the relationship between this sneaky casteism and its effect of making other groups go off and form their own casteist institutes, even if they aren't as insidiously discreet as others. Cause and effect.

Instead of putting it squarely on the individual's faults ,who is sitting and judging a whole swathe of people now ? there are many illustrious Gursikhs from the same group so not all is a black and white

This is no effect of any individuals but a whole culture. Lets' face it, pointing out some untainted gems doesn't detract from the fact that the barrel is rotten.

I'm talking about right now: Sikh politics has been completely overshadowed by the jat agenda, which is totally devoid of any noble, spiritual aims and hurts poorer jats in Panjab more than anyone else.

You want to deal with the Badal problem back home, target the mentality that has hordes of jats choosing to blindly vote for him, for the price of a few botals and a false sense of caste pride. That's what people need to focus on. His support base.

[InderjitS]

It's you being in denial again. All those problems people are crying about today in Panjab today are a direct consequence of Badal, a man who has built his empire on the back of jat caste loyalty in the scarcely concealed form of the Akali Dal.

Using this blind peasant solidarity, he's managed to infiltrate and corrupt almost every Sikh institute going. Thing with jats though, is that they've created this problem with their tribal clannishness and are amongst the ones suffering the most as a consequence. Talk about own goal. Then people wonder why we have the santa/banta stereotype. Then when you point out this ugly truth, they run around trying to ignore it or wildly point at others (like you are trying) to deflect from it.

Many jats feel like they are the only ones who should lead the panth (for whatever reason); well, we can all see what a grand job they've done with that...

If you hog all the seats of power and control (like jats have in Panjab), you shouldn't really act surprised when people call you out for doing such an appalling job in leading.

Why? It's at the very core of most our problems, back home and in the diaspora. We've been ignoring it for long enough.

It's high time we faced it square on.

...and it fails to amaze me why Sikhs are not progressing.

Like I said previously and maybe you're not comprehending it very well, 'I do not mind if you curse the ones doing damage, but what you cannot do is seemingly tarnish everyone with the same brush'.

I can go into the pros and cons of what the Jatts have brought to the table and otherwise (where you're stuck), but do not have the time or interest to do so. This will be my last post on this, no matter how much you stir up the hornets nest.

[jkvlondon]

This is no fringe, small group but a majority in that community and they are dragging the wider Sikh community straight down the drain as we speak.

They've hijacked Sikh institutes to serve their caste agenda. All the way to the top.

So this isn't a small, pitiful group, but a powerful one that has sadly manipulated things to have unparalleled influence on the panth. The results are plain for all to see. These people are not remotely interested in any better path. They know exactly what they are doing.

For the rest of you, if this isn't Waheguru plainly showing us the long-term negative consequences of adopting backwards, pendu, tribal thinking with your politics, I don't know what will wake you up?

Absolutely. As should those who do this discreetly, by hiding behind the Singh Sabha badge and throwing a few tokens in their committees - they also need to be called out. Who do they think they are fooling? And you should see the relationship between this sneaky casteism and its effect of making other groups go off and form their own casteist institutes, even if they aren't as insidiously discreet as others. Cause and effect.

This is no effect of any individuals but a whole culture. Lets' face it, pointing out some untainted gems doesn't detract from the fact that the barrel is rotten.

I'm talking about right now: Sikh politics has been completely overshadowed by the jat agenda, which is totally devoid of any noble, spiritual aims and hurts poorer jats in Panjab more than anyone else.

You want to deal with the Badal problem back home, target the mentality that has hordes of jats choosing to blindly vote for him, for the price of a few botals and a false sense of caste pride. That's what people need to focus on. His support base.

bankrupt the a hole by boycotting all his businesses , stopping daswand to SGPC golaks, court cases for theft and embezzlements against makkar and Badal , highlight ALL his stooges and the unspoken rules will be no roti beti sanjh with any of those families ... money is his weak point , he can call on political favours but if he has no money his task force and security will give him jawab

[kheerja]

There were also great Sikhs who served Brits but then had a spiritual awakening and left to serve Sikhi. Sant Ishar Singh from Malwa is an example.

I think serving a foreign, occupying force who are playing all sorts of manipulative games with your people and faith (not to mention doing all sorts of dubious, greedy, selfish escapades in other foreign lands) isn't ever going to be the actions of the spiritually inclined.

Sikhs mostly served the British because they had no choice. They were also promised independence of India if they cooperated with the British in the second world war and this is why many sikhs joined the British forces. When everything was over (the war) the sikhs were left at their own devices and promises made about the independence forgotten!!

When India finally got its independence, the sikhs were ignored totally and vast region that was once part of the sikh kingdom was happily given away to the muslims. Not even one hindu expressed any annoyance or objections to this cunning move. If it wasn't for the bravery of the sikh men and women, India would have become a totally muslim country.

Khalsa was not suppose to declare illegal and unjust wars on others, it was suppose to fight just wars in self defence.