Standing During Lava During Anand Karaj

[Sevadar84]

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I don't have very much knowledge on this topic, I have however asked this question to knowledegable Gurmukhs. They all agree that the Puratan tradition has always been to sit during the Laavan and not stand.

This is not a Taksal only belief. Nihang Singh Dals, Takhats, other Sampardas and Akhand Kirtani Jatha believe in sitting during Laavan. You may notice that recently some Sikh youth stand during Laavan, this is a new thing as Sikh Rehit Maryada (draft) published by SGPC has been forcefully pushed on the Panth. If you ask the older Gurmukhs in AKJ, they will tell you that sitting during Laavan is indeed the tradition.

Basically, long story short....in order for SGPC to make the Sikh Rehit Maryada different from the Puratan Maryada, they had to make some changes or else it would've been quite similar.

A few of the unfortunates changes SGPC made are:

- Standing during Laavan, not sitting.

- During Bir Asan position, keep the left knee raised instead of right. All other organizations raise the right knee.

- Parvaan to Degh instead of Bhog.

- Shortened Banis

- Padh ched instead of Larivaar

The list goes on and I don't want to fuel a discussion to create differences. But my view is simple, since SGPC has created their Maryada...how has the Panth benefitted?

One Gurmukh was so troubled at the changes made by the SGPC, he said a powerful quote:

'However many Padh Cheds are done to Gurbani, that's how many groups will be made....once the Panth restores the Puratan tradition of connecting the words as Larivaar, only then will the Panth connect as one'

Apologies for mistakes.

[JagsawSingh]

A few of the unfortunates changes SGPC made are:

- During Bir Asan position, keep the left knee raised instead of right. All other organizations raise the right knee.

Given how this is the ultimate warrior's position, ensuring he is forever ready for battle, I can't help wondering why either that side or the other should be enforcing their right-footed (right-handed) ideals as a ritual on left-handers and vice versa ? If one particular knee is enforced as a ritual than one way or another either the left-handers or right-handers are going to be disadvantaged as a warrior which in itself would be making a mockery of being in the warrior's position.

In other words, rituals is the key word here. Our Guru, as always, gave us something quite beautiful and profound but man, as usual, has turned it into a ritual.

So, lets take our marriage ceremony as an example: Our forefathers left Hinduism because it was a religion full of meaningless rituals. So they left the darkness and came into the light. Since then however, man in the Sikh faith, has added so many rituals that the Sikh wedding ceremony, and other aspects, has more rituals involved than the Hinduism one our forefathers left behind because of too many rituals. Indeed, we have reached a stage where a man may well be able to leave Sikhism and join Hinduism and cite his primary reason for doing so the fact that Sikhism is jam-packed with way too many rituals. Man, himself, has created an upside down world.

[ms514]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Removed. I'll let the representation of more learned Gursikhs comment here as above.

[khalsaman1]

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I don't have very much knowledge on this topic, I have however asked this question to knowledegable Gurmukhs. They all agree that the Puratan tradition has always been to sit during the Laavan and not stand.

This is not a Taksal only belief. Nihang Singh Dals, Takhats, other Sampardas and Akhand Kirtani Jatha believe in sitting during Laavan. You may notice that recently some Sikh youth stand during Laavan, this is a new thing as Sikh Rehit Maryada (draft) published by SGPC has been forcefully pushed on the Panth. If you ask the older Gurmukhs in AKJ, they will tell you that sitting during Laavan is indeed the tradition.

Basically, long story short....in order for SGPC to make the Sikh Rehit Maryada different from the Puratan Maryada, they had to make some changes or else it would've been quite similar.

A few of the unfortunates changes SGPC made are:

- Standing during Laavan, not sitting.

- During Bir Asan position, keep the left knee raised instead of right. All other organizations raise the right knee.

- Parvaan to Degh instead of Bhog.

- Shortened Banis

- Padh ched instead of Larivaar

The list goes on and I don't want to fuel a discussion to create differences. But my view is simple, since SGPC has created their Maryada...how has the Panth benefitted?

One Gurmukh was so troubled at the changes made by the SGPC, he said a powerful quote:

'However many Padh Cheds are done to Gurbani, that's how many groups will be made....once the Panth restores the Puratan tradition of connecting the words as Larivaar, only then will the Panth connect as one'

Apologies for mistakes.

Thanks Singh Ji for this response.

Unfortunately, this is not surprising. This just causes more questions amongst Sikh youth who are keen to join the righteous path but have to question differences such as these.

May Waheguru bring the entire panth together.

[MisterrSingh]

May I ask a question that's kind of related to this area?

Do the various jathas that promote their own flavour of Sikhi - as valid as they may be - preach to their own, behind closed doors, that only their brand of Sikhi is the correct way to salvation and that other jathas are - for want of a better word - heretics? Or is there an understanding that the slight differences in Maryada are valid, and that ultimately as long as one leads a Gursikh life, those differences between groups don't really matter?

[jkvlondon]

May I ask a question that's kind of related to this area?

Do the various jathas that promote their own flavour of Sikhi - as valid as they may be - preach to their own, behind closed doors, that only their brand of Sikhi is the correct way to salvation and that other jathas are - for want of a better word - heretics? Or is there an understanding that the slight differences in Maryada are valid, and that ultimately as long as one leads a Gursikh life, those differences between groups don't really matter?

If you believe in Guru ji's bachan and live accordingly all differences will fall away anyway even between dharams as one progresses, I had amrit in AKJ jatha rehnsabhai at age 9 and I've mixed in so many groups of SIkhs since thne I'm 47 now and I have never heard any hatred or backbiting they all see SIkh brothers and sisters , it's only the youngsters who don't know much about the path that seem to put right wrong labels to everything that another group does compared to their own ...

I didn't know about Bhai Randhir SIngh ji's personal history beforehand but everything I read since illustrates he had big Love for Guru ji and tried to live life strictly adhering to rehit . Other sikhs who have high avasta will always encourage sikhs to be ik mut not seperated. Obviously those people claiming sikhi but are carrying on in an unsikh way like Namdharis, radha soamis and nirankaris the Gursikhs will advise to avoid their sangat, that they have earned Guru ji's displeasure but not hate these guys. Heretic is an abrahamic term , sikhi beautiful because it just says either you are with us or not , if not, that's your choice good luck. (I know some misguided peeps get rabid but they are not representative of true sikh attitude)

[khalsaman1]

If you believe in Guru ji's bachan and live accordingly all differences will fall away anyway even between dharams as one progresses, I had amrit in AKJ jatha rehnsabhai at age 9 and I've mixed in so many groups of SIkhs since thne I'm 47 now and I have never heard any hatred or backbiting they all see SIkh brothers and sisters , it's only the youngsters who don't know much about the path that seem to put right wrong labels to everything that another group does compared to their own ...

I didn't know about Bhai Randhir SIngh ji's personal history beforehand but everything I read since illustrates he had big Love for Guru ji and tried to live life strictly adhering to rehit . Other sikhs who have high avasta will always encourage sikhs to be ik mut not seperated. Obviously those people claiming sikhi but are carrying on in an unsikh way like Namdharis, radha soamis and nirankaris the Gursikhs will advise to avoid their sangat, that they have earned Guru ji's displeasure but not hate these guys. Heretic is an abrahamic term , sikhi beautiful because it just says either you are with us or not , if not, that's your choice good luck. (I know some misguided peeps get rabid but they are not representative of true sikh attitude)

Great post Singh Ji.

But I will say that our panth can learn a lot from Namdharis. They have mastered the art of kirtan. The majority of our ragis don't have anywhere near the kirtan discipline that these people have.

[jkvlondon]

Great post Singh Ji.

But I will say that our panth can learn a lot from Namdharis. They have mastered the art of kirtan. The majority of our ragis don't have anywhere near the kirtan discipline that these people have.

I did have the option of learning tanti saaz from namdharis in East Ham but my heart wouldn't let me as I knew they went against Guru Pita ji's adesh Guru Maniyo Granth ... there are Sikh alternatives for instance learning at Karamsar Gurdwara via Raj academy students . Where there is a will there is a way , now that a proportion of namdharis have rejoined Khalsa Panth by doing pesh maybe there will be less hardship regaining gurmat sangeet knowledge .

Remember that Raagi Avtar SIngh ji wrote books on purataan reets and gurmat sangeet going back to time of Guru Hargobind Ji Maharaj plus we also have Baru Sahib sangeet Academy and Jawaddi Kalan Taksal

[Not2Cool2Argue]

May I ask a question that's kind of related to this area?

Do the various jathas that promote their own flavour of Sikhi - as valid as they may be - preach to their own, behind closed doors, that only their brand of Sikhi is the correct way to salvation and that other jathas are - for want of a better word - heretics? Or is there an understanding that the slight differences in Maryada are valid, and that ultimately as long as one leads a Gursikh life, those differences between groups don't really matter?

From my experience, which may not be truely representative: when i was taking santhiya, the teacher would say this word is pronounced thus though some people say it like this. But that is incorrect as the meaning changes or we have to add a matra or because this sant said to.say ot this way.

I was raised in a taksali environment, but when i grew up (lol), i was exposed to akjs. Their way of thinking and doing santhiya and things. And i realized most of the differences my santhiya teacher attributed to 'some ppl do this' were referring to the way akjs do things. That was shocking. I had thought the other ppl were ppl who had not taken santhiya or did not know. I didnt know it was for an alternative way to do things.

But having said that, i really liked ppl i met in both jathas. You shoukd really try to meet some ppl in jathas and taksal yourself. Its really cool how much they are into sikhi than us average sikhs. Of course tne youngsters take it too far, but kids like making cliques. So really try to meet some jatha/taksal singhs

[Jonny101]

I have noticed one thing. People on forums can become very nasty almost dusht like. I mean only a dusht would do the maha paap of Sant ki Ninda as we saw on a recent thread that was closed yesterday where a Mahapurkh was repeatedly insulted. But when you try to spit at the moon the spit will only land on your own face with full force. Moon will remain unaffected.

This is one of the main reasons why I dislike missionaries because they disrespect respected Gursikhs of the past.