1699 Vaisakhi-eye-witness Account By A Mughal Spy!

[jkvlondon]

Nobody is saying that. Please don't twist our words.

Guru Ji asked that five Sikhs give him their heads, the Panj did, and so has every other person who has ever received his Amrit. To become Amritdhari is to make an offering of your head to your Guru, to sacrifice everything that makes you you so that you can become an instrument for his will.

Jau tau prem khelan ka chaao Sir dhar tali gali meri aao It maarag pehr dhareejai Sir deejai kaan na keejai

Just because the sword didn't cut their necks doesn't mean the Panj didn't give their heads.

Our Guru is no liar, but he isn't some bland literalist either. Sometimes ingenious tactics are necessary to help people understand the truth. When Guru Nanak Dev told the Hindus at Haridvar that he was watering his fields when he threw water towards the West, was he lying then? He was not, he was making a slightly sarcastic joke in order that they might realize their folly.

just like you say it is not the actual seperation of head from thaun that gives the head , but how insulting to say that there were bakri already there for chatka ...who provided them and at what price ? . If Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev ji can give a LITERAL physical tour of all the realms to Pir Dastagir's son and bring parshad from those places why is it such a stretch for our minds to believe his jot to do the impossible again ? It is a matter of faith in Guru ji's bachan and character that I am questioning why have we fallen to questioning Guru Pita ji ?

let us not make the mistake to equate what our SatGuru ji did to the baazigar antics of pakhandi babey . He has no need to be afraid of the world's opinion or create false impressions . If there was a tent why were people fleeing in terror as is told in other places , after all these were people subjected to violence and bloodshed often? I have faith in Guru ji and his Amrit bringing life to the spiritually dead...and for me that is enough .

[Balkaar]

just like you say it is not the actual seperation of head from thaun that gives the head , but how insulting to say that there were bakri already there for chatka ...who provided them and at what price ? . If Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Dev ji can give a LITERAL physical tour of all the realms to Pir Dastagir's son and bring parshad from those places why is it such a stretch for our minds to believe his jot to do the impossible again ? It is a matter of faith in Guru ji's bachan and character that I am questioning why have we fallen to questioning Guru Pita ji ?

let us not make the mistake to equate what our SatGuru ji did to the baazigar antics of pakhandi babey . He has no need to be afraid of the world's opinion or create false impressions . If there was a tent why were people fleeing in terror as is told in other places , after all these were people subjected to violence and bloodshed often?

Guru Ji is certainly capable of miraculous feats, but is also wise enough to use such powers sparingly. Guru Sahib's task in 1699 was to turn a community of sparrows into hawks, so I'm not surprised that he moderated his use of miracles and relied on his human abilities in order to show the new Khalsa Sikhs that even mortal bodies were capable of great things. Guru Sahib could have called forth divine powers to destroy the enemies assaulting him and his Sikhs, but he did not, because what example would this set to his people? Guru Ji was a role model to his Sikhs, they aspired to imitate his behavior in all things. They could hardly emulate him if he attempted this. How could they become the lions they needed to be if his divine protection was always a given? No, I think he realized that the Vaisakhi of 1699 had to be an example of human potential, not a demonstration of non-human powers, if it was to achieve the goal of transforming sparrows into hawks, and that he would have to embody it.

I don't imagine many of the Sikhs at the gathering were battle-hardened veterans. The end of Guru Hargobind Sahib's reign, and the entirety of the seventh and eighth patshaah's reigns had been largely peaceful. The only Sikh soldiers before this time would have been the men of the Akaal Sena, by no means a very large force, and certainly not constituting the majority of Sikhs. Little wonder then that so many fled in terror.

I have faith in Guru ji and his Amrit bringing life to the spiritually dead...and for me that is enough .

That's fine, and I would never try to take that faith from you. But it happens that I have a slightly different view of the events of 1699 than you do, and accusing me of defaming my Guru as a liar because of this difference of opinion is a bit below the belt, as well as a distortion of what I said.

[shastarSingh]

Gur Katha Granth by Bhai Jaita Ji also mentions that the 5 Pyaras were brought back to life.

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/38445-siri-gur-katha-eye-witness-account-of-1699/

[Balkaar]

Pyare Veer,

have a read at this thread:

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/38445-siri-gur-katha-eye-witness-account-of-1699/

Sri Gur Katha Granth was written by Bhai Jaita Ji (Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji). It also mentions that Guru Sahib brought the 5 pyaras back to life.

Kavi Santokh Singh was a good sikh but he was of Nirmala order.

He also spoke against Ragmaala.

He had many hindus or hindu minded sikhs as his assistants.

In short, Suraj Parkash(just as Prachin Panth parkash by Bhangu) is VERY VERY VALUABLE.

But it has mistakes.

I haven't heard of this Granth before, but I ought to read it before I pass judgement. Do you know where I can find a full copy?

[shastarSingh]

http://jsks.biz/bhai-jaitas-sri-gur-katha-neeti-singh

today i got my copy from amazon.com so shud be availabe on amazon too.

This granth is a JEWEL. Thats all I can say.

[InderjitS]

To think that Guru Sahib did Jhatka of bakriaan is simply hilarious. If there are no eye witness accounts of the heads actually being separated, there also are no accounts of anyone mentioning the bleating goats. When I was studying R.E in school and came across the pages where it mentioned goats I even recall discussing with the teacher that this was plain wrong. She did not of course believe a word I said.

[Jonny101]

I haven't heard of this Granth before, but I ought to read it before I pass judgement. Do you know where I can find a full copy?

I have heard that like the Gur Kian Sakhian of Bhatt Vahis this Granth is also a recently discovered Granth. What is interesting is that both this Granth and Gur Kian Sakhia confirm that Jaap Sahib, Savaiya and Chaupi Sahib was read in 1699. This completely blows off the lid of the lies being spread by the heretics missionaries who say there is no historic contemporary proof these Dasam Bani were read in 1699.

[InderjitS]

Guru Ji is certainly capable of miraculous feats, but is also wise enough to use such powers sparingly. Guru Sahib's task in 1699 was to turn a community of sparrows into hawks, so I'm not surprised that he moderated his use of miracles and relied on his human abilities in order to show the new Khalsa Sikhs that even mortal bodies were capable of great things. Guru Sahib could have called forth divine powers to destroy the enemies assaulting him and his Sikhs, but he did not, because what example would this set to his people? Guru Ji was a role model to his Sikhs, they aspired to imitate his behavior in all things. They could hardly emulate him if he attempted this. How could they become the lions they needed to be if his divine protection was always a given? No, I think he realized that the Vaisakhi of 1699 had to be an example of human potential, not a demonstration of non-human powers, if it was to achieve the goal of transforming sparrows into hawks, and that he would have to embody it.

I don't imagine many of the Sikhs at the gathering were battle-hardened veterans. The end of Guru Hargobind Sahib's reign, and the entirety of the seventh and eighth patshaah's reigns had been largely peaceful. The only Sikh soldiers before this time would have been the men of the Akaal Sena, by no means a very large force, and certainly not constituting the majority of Sikhs. Little wonder then that so many fled in terror.

That's fine, and I would never try to take that faith from you. But it happens that I have a slightly different view of the events of 1699 than you do, and accusing me of defaming my Guru as a liar because of this difference of opinion is a bit below the belt, as well as a distortion of what I said.

If at any time Guru Sahib would prove that he was 'Satgur Mera Maar Jeevale' it would be on this most significant occasion for the Panth at that time and for all future time. Guru Hargobind Sahib had also proven this was possible in the Baba Atal Sahib Sakhi.

har a(n)mrith ras paaeiaa muaa jeevaaeiaa fir baahurr maran n hoee ||

Obtaining the Ambrosial Essence of the Lord, the dead are restored to life, and do not die again.

(Guru Raam Daas Ji, Raag Aasaa, 447).

[Balkaar]

If at any time Guru Sahib would prove that he was 'Satgur Mera Maar Jeevala' it would be in this most significant occasion for the Panth at that time and for all future time. Guru Hargobind Sahib had also proven this was possible in the Baba Atal Sahib Sakhi.

Guru Sahib needn't prove anything to us, least of all that. If he wanted to demonstrate anything at that gathering I believe it was the strength and resourcefulness of ordinary folk, which would help to remold his feeble Sikhs into Singhs and Singhniaan. I think he knew that an exhibition of his power would have undermined this goal.

To think that Guru Sahib did Jhatka of bakriaan is simply hilarious. If there are no eye witness accounts of the heads actually being separated, there also are no accounts of anyone mentioning the bleating goats. When I was studying R.E in school and came across the pages where it mentioned goats I even recall discussing with the teacher that this was plain wrong. She did not of course believe a word I said.

Where do you believe the blood on the tulwaar came from Singhji? I can't be certain that there were goats there either, but it must have come from somewhere and a bakraa seems very reasonable to me.

I have heard that like the Gur Kian Sakhian of Bhatt Vahis this Granth is also a recently discovered Granth. What is interesting is that both this Granth and Gur Kian Sakhia confirm that Jaap Sahib, Savaiya and Chaupi Sahib was read in 1699. This completely blows off the lid of the lies being spread by the heretics missionaries who say there is no historic contemporary proof these Dasam Bani were read in 1699.

That lids been off since Baba Banda Bahadur's day. Still, it can never hurt to have more information with which to humiliate those naastiks and put them in their place.

[InderjitS]

Guru Sahib needn't prove anything to us, least of all that. If he set out to demonstrate anything at that gathering I believe it was the strength and resourcefulness of ordinary people, which would help to remold his feeble Sikhs into Singhs and Singhniaan. I think he knew that an exhibition of his power would have undermined this goal.

Where do you believe the blood on the tulwaar came from Singhji? I can't be certain that there were goats there either, but it must have come from somewhere and a bakraa is as good an explanation as any.

At the end of the day Guru Sahib did not need to prove anything in many of the accounts where miracles were performed.

I wholeheartedly believe Guru Sahib performed a chamtkaar on that day and the sees was separated from the sareers. Whether anyone else chooses to believe that or not is entirely their wish. We have already have ample examples of extraordinary feats by Gursikhs, let alone Guru Sahib.