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Authentic/Original Kirpan


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3 minutes ago, weareallone said:

Any definitive information on this? And why hasn't it been reverted back to what it should be, after all the British are long gone. Even the Nihangs and the 20/21st century Sikh preachers and leaders are wearing the modern style. It is only the arab knife which has this end kink in the sheath. It is clear that Guru Gobind Singh Jis kirpan is straight, sharp, very narrow handle and sheath is leather with space for kanga, and what could be attachment for securing mala and other such items.

I seen a Sri sahib of sahib Sri guru tegh bahadur ji maharaj that looks like the modern taksali kirpan. But mostly the old kirpans were straight.

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3 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

I seen a Sri sahib of sahib Sri guru tegh bahadur ji maharaj that looks like the modern taksali kirpan. But mostly the old kirpans were straight.

I am also referring in particular to the sheath. Metal and wooden decorative sheath with the sharp bend at the end is a typical arab design.

Given that there is only one surviving example of kirpan sheath, it was clearly made only of leather and looks nothing like an arab design whatsoever. I have seen this in meditation before seeing the Guru's own example.

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48 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

I seen a Sri sahib of sahib Sri guru tegh bahadur ji maharaj that looks like the modern taksali kirpan. But mostly the old kirpans were straight.

Do you mean small or large size? If small, I don't believe that this would be authentic. All I can find is straight (small) kirpans and certainly no arab style sheath. After further research I can find that the small kirpan was always straight whereas the long sri sahib (sword) was shamsheer style (curved blade). This full length sri sahib (sword) is similar to what you will find today in terms of shape but for some reason the small kirpan (which nearly all sikhs wear as their kakkar), i.e. the taksali kirpan has morphed into an arab knife.

I've also learned that Mata Saheb Kaur Ji's kirpans, both small (straight and sharp) and large (3 foot, curved) are on display. I will visit there and report back.

I believe that it is very important to be true to the purtaan kakkar. I have felt it's spiritual energy personally. The on-body kakkar kirpan (as opposed to the shastar sri sahib kirpan- the Guru and all great Sikhs from the time clearly carried BOTH and the full version probably taken off whilst bathing, but kakkar kirpan never leaving the body), has a great significance. It is my aim to recreate this by hand and teach others.

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19 minutes ago, weareallone said:

Do you mean small or large size? If small, I don't believe that this would be authentic. All I can find is straight (small) kirpans and certainly no arab style sheath. After further research I can find that the small kirpan was always straight whereas the long sri sahib (sword) was shamsheer style (curved blade). This full length sri sahib (sword) is similar to what you will find today in terms of shape but for some reason the small kirpan (which nearly all sikhs wear as their kakkar), i.e. the taksali kirpan has morphed into an arab knife.

I've also learned that Mata Saheb Kaur Ji's kirpans, both small (straight and sharp) and large (3 foot, curved) are on display. I will visit there and report back.

I believe that it is very important to be true to the purtaan kakkar. I have felt it's spiritual energy personally. The kakkar kirpan (as opposed to the shastar sri sahib) has a great significance. It is my aim to recreate this by hand and teach others.

Just because there are not many examples of that type of kirpan does not mean its not authentic. How do we know what is authentic and not?

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3 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

Just because there are not many examples of that type of kirpan does not mean its not authentic. How do we know what is authentic and not?

Historical artefacts can have a provenance (demonstrable line of history of being passed down and documentary evidence to support this).

The Guru's own kirpan matches that of Baba Deep Singh, Mata Sahib Kaur and many others. I have not found a single example of a small taksali kirpan that can be attributed to any Sikh from the time. You claim that you have seen one but show no evidence for this. Where did you see it and what was the size and shape? I will go there and check for myself. All I can find is that Guru Tegh Bahadur's sri sahib is preserved at Guruwara Dukhi Waran Sahib (Patiala), which is a regular shamsheer sri sahib. All Sri sahibs throughout history look identical. It is quite probabe that Gurus before Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not have the small kakkar kirpan.

I cannot speak for yourself but the reason why I am here asking these questions is because I have seen the authentic kirpan in meditation, when all I knew that existed was the taksali kirpan that I wear. I never knew there was any other. Then it came to me in meditation and I have found that it matches exactly, the Guru's kirpan, in particular the sheath.

These are very important questions.

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1 minute ago, weareallone said:

Historical artefacts can have a provenance (demonstrable line of history of being passed down and documentary evidence to support this).

The Guru's own kirpan matches that of Baba Deep Singh, Mata Sahib Kaur and many others. I have not found a single example of a small taksali kirpan that can be attributed to any Sikh from the time. You claim that you have seen one but show no evidence for this. Where did you see it and what was the size and shape? I will go there and check for myself. All I can find is that Guru Tegh Bahadur's sri sahib is preserved at Guruwara Dukhi Waran Sahib (Patiala), which is a regular shamsheer sri sahib. All Sri sahibs throughout history look identical. It is quite probabe that Gurus before Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not have the small kakkar kirpan.

I cannot speak for yourself but the reason why I am here asking these questions is because I have seen the authentic kirpan in meditation, when all I knew that existed was the taksali kirpan that I wear. I never knew there was any other. Then it came to me in meditation and I have found that it matches exactly, the Guru's kirpan, in particular the sheath.

These are very important questions.

The Sri sahib is in patiala. I have seen a picture and if I do find it again I will show it.

 

PS: I myself don't like taksali kirpans that much.

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9 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

The Sri sahib is in patiala. I have seen a picture and if I do find it again I will show it.

 

PS: I myself don't like taksali kirpans that much.

Okay. But just to avoid confusion in terminology, by sri sahib, do you mean the 3 foot shamsheer (curved) blade or a few inches of kirpan? I am interested in the small kirpan. There is no doubt as to the size and shape of the 2-3 foot sri sahib.

I can find this, which is the long sri sahib as belonging to Guru Tegh Bahadur ji, located in patiala. There is no small kirpan (taksali or otherwise) on the table:

96e6f3dfd0b40991438fabd3319dd99a.jpg

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From the handle you can tell that these are not kakar kirpans. These are shastar of which the Guru had plenty.

There is a puratan marayada that makes clear that the only the kakkar kirpan which is a single piece of iron (no separate handle) can be used for blessing the degh.

As per this the kakkar kirpan can only be the style of a single piece of iron, which the taksali kirpan is, but it does not stay true to the shape and the sheath.

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