Help regarding Parents and Ritualism

[Singhni MiriPiri]

50 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Don't pick and choose religion. I'm young, I can't move out as of yet, however my mother is disabled. Due to her I stick around to serve her and make sure She doesn't injure herself (as my father has work and other stuff to contend to), I do this while wrestling a part time job and University. I'm not a leech or a "bottom-feeder" however people like you won't follow your own advice shouldn't throw stones at others houses without having a poke around yours first.

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If people regard someone like this to be rebellious, hateful or stubborn really are ungrateful and naive. 

Just ignore them. 

[MrDoaba]

1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

Bro the Nanaksar Jatha follows alot of anti-gurmat things that Sant Ji DIDN'T prescribe for them. They're following their on manmat and anyone who reads Sant Ji's life stories/biographies will back this up.

I posted proof from a Brahmgyani where he teaches us not to fall into such manmat. I'd recommend reading Sukhmani Sahib,for a start you're misquoting and twisting gurbani intentional or not I can't say). Only Brahmgyani knows the state of another Brahmgyani, Sant Ji instructs people to take refugee in true Rakhi which is Gurbani, purposely you're defying Guru Sahib as well by insulting Sant Ji by saying you don't thing they are infallible. Read Sukhmani Sahib where the Astpadhi's address Brahgyani and Saadh are described. Mate, you're purposely ignoring Guru Sahib's gurbani, that's not very good behaviour for a sikh.

Veera the above is your view. I do not agree so shado pare. And I am not saying we should stop listening to them for advice and guidance rather we shouldn’t take their words as some kind of Gospel. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jis Bani is a guide on how to attain  Mukhti and merge into Akaal Purkh, it is not a guide regarding Dunyavi matters such as tying a rakhri etc. By your logic everyone should chuck their Saropa in the bin.

 

 

So rely on the words of those who have gone through this intense Santhiya, Can you show me Mahaprukh saying its fine a Sikh should do it?

Again Gurbani is regarding spiritual matters, not worldly matters.

 

 

Bro you just said 2 interpretations arise, I made a point about it all interpretations must arise in Gurbani, an interpration is wrong if it isn't routed in key gurmat principle. 

An interpretation through a Semitic/Christian lense is also not rooted in key Gurmat principle.

 

 

Phones exist man, use them.

 

I’m sure Mahapurkhs have said using phones is anti-Gurmat as you cannot see the person you are talking to....this in turn is mocking Gurbani and the concept of Nirgun.

 

 

I'm not, Guru Sahib spoke against all thread tying.

Guru Mahraaj spoke against thread tying related to spiritual pursuits and that tying threads in a Dharmic manner is pointless as they have no spiritual value. Use logic Veera.

 

 

Bro, Maharaaj's History was carefully documented, Mahapurkhs have said we shouldn't take part in it. Why are you so obsessed with following your own wishes and defending the institute. 

 

Please provide the documents. As I have stated Mahapurkhs speech is not Pavitar Gurbani. Such thinking is akin to Pakhandi Babe who make their own Granths which contain their "Gospel". Brother please do not fall into the trap of Sant worship or do Sangat with Sant worshippers, your ability to use logic and think for yourself will severely diminish.

 

 

 

Bro if people followed your life on thinking we'd end up insulting Mahapurkhs and following our own manmat rather than actual Gurbani. You don't want to show Gurbani despite insisting multiple interpretation can exist and proclaiming that someone needs Santhiya and Gyan to do that. I showed the words of a Mahapurkh and you rejected it. They are the ones with the Sanythia and Gyan yet you reject them when they don't conform to you. Such Hypocrisy.

Bro once you take the Semitic/Protestant lenses off all will be clear. Let me give you an example; take the common jhatka/no jhatka argument, Puratan Rehitname state that jhatka is allowed. Such Rehitname could have been written by Mahapurkhs but we cannot prove this. Modern Rehiname written by Mahapurkhs list jhatka as a Bajjar Kurheit. Who is right and who is wrong? Ki patta. One cannot take Sikhi and Gurbani and turn this into 10 Commandments or Sharia Law. This kind of thinking is what destroys ekta and causes ridiculous debates.

 

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[singhbj singh]

Thanatos you have your limitations & imperfections so why belittle others ?

I took Amrit with my friend's brothers.

The reason his elder bro was taking Amrit as his grandfather wanted him to do so.

He initially contested that he won't be able to follow Rehat but did it out love n respect for elders.

Moment we came back to their home after Sanchaar he removed Kirpan & ate eggs.

So how is this not a ritual ?

Funny part is, their grandfather was Jathedar and Sanchaar was delayed for a hour or so as we were caught in traffic.

This I came to know later.

[Thanatos]

33 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

Veera the above is your view. I do not agree so shado pare. And I am not saying we should stop listening to them for advice and guidance rather we shouldn’t take their words as some kind of Gospel. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jis Bani is a guide on how to attain  Mukhti and merge into Akaal Purkh, it is not a guide regarding Dunyavi matters such as tying a rakhri etc. By your logic everyone should chuck their Saropa in the bin.

Bro a Brahmgyani knows more than you or I, Rakhri is routed  in Vedic traditions and is  Vedic Ritual. Why do you constantly ignore Guru Gobind Singh Ji's words at rejecting the. I just showed you its a Vedic Tradition but you're still hellbent on ignoring it. That is manmat.

 

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An interpretation through a Semitic/Christian lense is also not rooted in key Gurmat principle.

You're the one ignoring Gurbani, Gurbani teaches you a Mahapurkh has blended with the lord, by disrespecting and ignoring their words (and doing their nindya as you are doing right now) you're rejecting Guru Granth Sahib Ji altogether. 

 

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I’m sure Mahapurkhs have said using phones is anti-Gurmat as you cannot see the person you are talking to....this in turn is mocking Gurbani and the concept of Nirgun.

What the actual hell lol, why are you mocking them now? Phones are a creation of human ingenuity (through Waheguru's grace), learn the meaning of Nirgun before casually passing that word around. Nirgun= without attributes. Sound is an attribute. Nir=without gun=attributes.

 

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Please provide the documents. As I have stated Mahapurkhs speech is not Pavitar Gurbani. Such thinking is akin to Pakhandi Babe who make their own Granths which contain their "Gospel". Brother please do not fall into the trap of Sant worship or do Sangat with Sant worshippers, your ability to use logic and think for yourself will severely diminish.

 

Read any of the Purantan Granths, Mahapurkh's speech is 100% truth. None of them have ever said stop reading Gurbani and listen to us, that's what makes them true Brahmgyanis. Did you read the Astapdhi's regarding Brahmgyani's and Saadhs in Sukhmani Sahib? did you see where it it said They are one with the lord, why are you disrespecting the lord by ignoring their words.

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Guru Mahraaj spoke against thread tying related to spiritual pursuits and that tying threads in a Dharmic manner is pointless as they have no spiritual value. Use logic Veera.

Do you actually know where Rakhri comes from? do you know the actual story behind it in the purana? No you don't. Because if you did you wouldn't sit here and scream its not religious and you would know WHY its considered a Spiritual thread? I suggest reading up and learning before coming here to debate this, its apparent you have no gyan on where the tradition arose from. 

The thread is meant to provide Spiritual and worldly protection which a thread can't do.

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Bro once you take the Semitic/Protestant lenses off all will be clear. Let me give you an example; take the common jhatka/no jhatka argument, Puratan Rehitname state that jhatka is allowed. Such Rehitname could have been written by Mahapurkhs but we cannot prove this. Modern Rehiname written by Mahapurkhs list jhatka as a Bajjar Kurheit. Who is right and who is wrong? Ki patta. One cannot take Sikhi and Gurbani and turn this into 10 Commandments or Sharia Law. This kind of thinking is what destroys ekta and causes ridiculous debates.

Rehitname aren't Gurbani, I asked for Gurbani proof, you can't provide it. The fact that you are trying to use them shows your own lack of thought as you have no idea WHY these Rehits came into being and the historical context behind them. Gurbani is so clear that a Sant is one with the lord but since they don't speak what you want them you lump them as Pakhandi Babe, you tried in this thread to disrespect Sant Isher Singh ji by saying he was telling people to pooj portraits of Guru Nanak Dev JI based on what his current Jatha is doing. IN this thread alone you've made countless statements which have shown to be false however your own manmat has lead you to do Nindya of a Sant and mock other Saints as well. 

 

Gurbani teaches you to learn from them. In the congregation of Saints is god found (Sukkhmani Sahib), Do not tell others to learn Gurbani when you don't want to do it yourself.

 

 

Question. Yes or NO. do you consider Guru Gobind Singh Ji your Guru, if you do then you'll reject Rakhri due to it being a Vedic tradition since he told his Sikhs to reject them. If you still want insist you know more than Guru Gobind Singh and follow it through then go for it. 

 

@singhbj I've not belittled anyone. You're a massive hypocrite, that isn't me doing any form of Nindya, its stating a fact. Nindya= falsehood. You said we should listen to our parents and follow their rules but chickened out when I asked if you'd cut your Kesh if your parents told you to. Re-evaluate your thoughts before throwing such hypocritical statements around. IN this thread alone you called me a freeloader and a bad child because I was trying to live a proper Rehit life. Bro, the fact that your Grandfather forced him to take it shows he's just as big as Patit as your cousin.

 

 

For the Sangat who wish to learn where it originated from please refer to this.

Why it is a Spiritual thread and in many places such as here.

 

http://www.drikpanchang.com/festivals/raksha-bandhan/info/raksha-bandhan-puja-vidhi.html

http://www.dlshq.org/religions/raksha.htm

http://www.shreehindutemple.net/hinduism/raksha-bandhan/

http://www.drikpanchang.com/festivals/raksha-bandhan/raksha-bandhan-date-time.html?l=9103

These are all links from "Non-Sikh Missionary" sites. They clearly state how its routed in being a Spiritual thread, I'm really done with this thread, can be locked. I've provided testaments from seasoned Gursikhs along with actual proof how it is Routed in old Hindu Puranas, @Akalifauj provided how the Gurbani was misconstructed and countless others pointed out the Sheer hypocrisy being displayed here. Seems like people don't even know what a word as simple as Nirgun means. 

 

ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀ ਆਨਿਯੋ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤਿ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਿਯੋ ॥
पांइ गहे जब ते तुमरे तब ते कोऊ आंख तरे नही आनियो ॥ राम रहीम पुरान कुरान अनेक कहैं मति एक न मानियो ॥
O God ! the day when I caught hold of your feet, I do not bring anyone else under my sight; none other is liked by me now; the Puranas and the Quran try to know Thee by the names of Ram and Rahim and talk about you through several stories, but I do not accept any of their opinions;

ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਭੈ ਬਹੁ ਭੇਦ ਕਹੈ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਨ ਜਾਨਿਯੋ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਸਿਪਾਨਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਮੈ ਨ ਕਹਿਯੋ ਸਭ ਤੋਹਿ ਬਖਾਨਿਯੋ ॥੮੬੩॥
सिम्रिति सासत्र बेद सभै बहु भेद कहै हम एक न जानियो ॥ स्री असिपानि क्रिपा तुमरी करि मै न कहियो सभ तोहि बखानियो ॥८६३॥
The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas describe several mysteries of yours, but I do not agree with any of them. O sword-wielder God! This all has been described by Thy Grace, what power can I have to write all this?.863.
 

 

If Guru Gobind Singh Ji told us not to indulge in all this then please lets not. If anyone wishes to contridict Guru Sahib with their own anmat then they may do so, they have every right. However they can't proclaim to be Sikhs or even consider that as Gurmat.

 

 

 

 

 

Thread can be locked

 

[MrDoaba]

47 minutes ago, Thanatos said:

Bro a Brahmgyani knows more than you or I, Rakhri is routed  in Vedic traditions and is  Vedic Ritual. Why do you constantly ignore Guru Gobind Singh Ji's words at rejecting the. I just showed you its a Vedic Tradition but you're still hellbent on ignoring it. That is manmat.

Bro let’s just leave it otherwise we’ll be going in circles. Are you against Hazoor Sahib Maryada btw?

 

 

You're the one ignoring Gurbani, Gurbani teaches you a Mahapurkh has blended with the lord, by disrespecting and ignoring their words (and doing their nindya as you are doing right now) you're rejecting Guru Granth Sahib Ji altogether. 

I’m not doing nindya. Where have I spread false statements or lies?

 

 

Rehitname aren't Gurbani, I asked for Gurbani proof, you can't provide it. The fact that you are trying to use them shows your own lack of thought as you have no idea WHY these Rehits came into being and the historical context behind them. Gurbani is so clear that a Sant is one with the lord but since they don't speak what you want them you lump them as Pakhandi Babe, you tried in this thread to disrespect Sant Isher Singh ji by saying he was telling people to pooj portraits of Guru Nanak Dev JI based on what his current Jatha is doing. IN this thread alone you've made countless statements which have shown to be false however your own manmat has lead you to do Nindya of a Sant and mock other Saints as well. 

You missed the point bro. I was providing an example by which I was trying to explain those Rehitname could have been written by Mahapurkhs. I was equating them with the speech of Mahapurkhs that you continuously bring up.

I never disrespected Sant Ishar Singh Ji bro, please read carefully. I simply stated they were from Nanaksar and Nanaksar have this practise and also I never said they “pooj” the portrait, I said they use it as a point of focus (I'm not actually against this). You are doing nindya by making false statements.

Btw that portrait of Guru Nanak Dev Ji is official portrait according to Nanaksar that was only painted with Sant di bakhshish.

 Veera Gurbani does not tell us to reject Sanatan Granths, rather not to revere them as sole truth and not to think they alone have the key to Dharam. Many Sant Mahapurkh from different Samparda study all these Granths. If we were to reject them as you state then you are by default rejecting those Sant Mahapurkh who have done Vidya of them. You’d be shocked if you saw the list of Granths studied by Taksaal and Nirmale.

 

[Thanatos]

29 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

I’m not doing nindya. Where have I spread false statements or lies?

You started mocking Sants by saying they were against phones, not only that but after I showed you the tradition is actually religious orientated you're still refusing to acknowledge it. You refuse to accept that a Sant's avasta has merged with the lord so they only speak the truth. You stated only Maharaj was infalliable, indirectly implying Sant Ji is fallible. Maharaj is infallible but so are his Sants. When a Sant says something its 100% true, it isn't "advise" its something to contemplate and incorporate into life.

 

 

 

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You missed the point bro. I was providing an example by which I was trying to explain those Rehitname could have been written by Mahapurkhs. I was equating them with the speech of Mahapurkhs that you continuously bring up.

There's audio for this, Stop comparing something that can be corrupted over time to something thats a measly few decades (max) old. Rehitname are not the speech of Mahapurkh, in many cases they are paraphrased passed along from mouth to mouth and even changed, and in other cases they come as a biproduct of a time and certain condition. This is direct Bachan of a Mahapurkh, only a morakh would reject something as conclusive as this.

This is audio proof, why is it so hard for you to simply accept they know better. Yet you go off on a tangent and start sprouting nonsense about concept you didn't even bother to relay.

 

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1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

 Veera Gurbani does not tell us to reject Sanatan Granths, rather not to revere them as sole truth and not to think they alone have the key to Dharam. Many Sant Mahapurkh from different Samparda study all these Granths. If we were to reject them as you state then you are by default rejecting those Sant Mahapurkh who have done Vidya of them. You’d be shocked if you saw the list of Granths studied by Taksaal and Nirmale.

 

 

Bro If Gurbani tells you to reject them then reject them. They aren't the whole truth which is the whole crux of this argument. I've had to spell it out for you how it is a Spiritual thread, yet you're purposely refusing to accept it because it means having to concede the point. Unless you can provide any proof its considered ok in Sikhism then please go for it, So far you've contradicted yourself multiple times. You said Gurbani is against Spiritual threads, i just showed how it is a spiritual thread. Now you're trying to change the entire crux of the argument. 

 

There's a difference between studying them and accepting them. I studied creationism in my RE class, doesn't mean I accept it. I was able to learn where it comes from, why it exists and why Creationists can easily become confused by it. 

@thebolded Why are you putting this on me. Guru Gobind Singh Ji was the one who told us to reject them, every Sant will tell you Gurbani is supreme, the other Scriptures have corruptions within them (along with truth) however thread tying is part of the corrupt as its used for spiritual purposes. I've shown this by referencing from actual Hindu sites who know more than you or I do regarding them, but clearly your own ego won't accept it.

It's a Spiritual thread since the very Puranas which started the tradition introduced it as such. So by default its anti-Gurmat.

 

In this entire thread you have not provided a single ounce of proof fro any reasonable source while parroting that you don't have the avasta to post Gurbani. When a Mahapurkh speaks out against it you try to discredit him in a vain attempt to appear self-righteous. 

 

If anyone has any doubts read the Puranas and ask actual Hindus about it. They'll tell you its a Spiritual thread, the very thing You are rejecting but refusing to accept because it doesn't coincide with your own views about it all. Do not push this on anyone else, Guru Sahib said to consider Gurbani Supreme, he also told us to reject vedic scriptures but you clearly know more than Guru Sahib or Sant Ji so please continue living in your own delusions  I will say one thing though, those that craftily try to attack sants like this are doomed for countless reincarnations. Show some humility and take what Sant Ji said as the truth and stop living under your own Ego, Gurbani tells us to recite Gurbani under their guidance and listen to them as though they are the lord (which their state is). 

 

I'm pretty much done in all this, I've posted proof which saw its from Puranas and a Spiritual thread, however MrDoaba here clearly knows more than those scriptures and gurbani or even Sant Ji.

[MrDoaba]

@Thanatos

ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਚੰਗੇ ਬੁਰਾ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥

[singhbj singh]

 

"I've not belittled anyone. You're a massive hypocrite, that isn't me doing any form of Nindya, its stating a fact. Nindya= falsehood. You said we should listen to our parents and follow their rules but chickened out when I asked if you'd cut your Kesh if your parents told you to. Re-evaluate your thoughts before throwing such hypocritical statements around. IN this thread alone you called me a freeloader and a bad child because I was trying to live a proper Rehit life. Bro, the fact that your Grandfather forced him to take it shows he's just as big as Patit as your cousin."

 

Fact is you can't walk the talk !

It's foolish trying to gain sympathy for your mom when you are the one hurting her feelings.

Now have you misplaced your spectacles ?

Read carefully it was MY FRIENDS GRANDPA who was a JATHEDAR.

 

 

 

[Thanatos]

@singhbj Bro nor can you. You refuse to cut your Kesh and hurt your parents in my scenario, you're just as bad as me. I'm many things, a morakh, a paapi, an insect but you my friend are 2 faced. Forcing someone into any form of Amrit is against the very core of Sikhism. You're own points are filled with ludicrously hypocritical statements. " I wont cut my kesh even if my parents say it but you're the bad guy for refusing to tie a thread" . Ironic isn't it? Rather than calling me on hurting my parents I'd suggest thinking about the same incident in your own context. People like you are the reason why most sikhs are confused as hell. Wonder what you would say to the Bhagat Prahlad who disobeyed his father and venerated the lord, wow I guess by your logic he's a bad person. Isn't that right? lmao. Just using your own logic against you bro. Calm down and re-think it all. Or how about Bhagat Dru? Who despite being asked by his family to return...didn't do so for so long.

 

By your logic Bhagat Prahlad was a freeloader since those are your own exact words, He was a misbehaving,parent hurting child. Yet God saved him lol.

[simran345]

Some people won't like what I say, but I'll say it anyways. 

Actually Thanatos does not insult, he just says it how it is. And if it's not to do with Gurbani or Sikhi he will say it. The elders actually need to be ashamed of the way they talk to youngsters on here, no wonder they get answered back because if you are going to talk like that then you get no respect either back. It takes to give respect to get it back. 

At least he's got he knows more than most youngsters nowadays. 

Hes only passionate about Sikhi and is trying to put across what h feels is right. He's doing nothing wrong either. 

Just look at the way some of the elders come across on here, including myself. But the difference is i realise if I go OTT. Sorry to say some of you don't. 

Its not about taking sides with anybody it's about everybody trying to compromise and accept different opinions, which some can't do. And that's a great shame to see and to use the forum for taking out frustration on. 

So we are no better either as elders, if we are going to treat the youngsters the way we do. I've learnt that from this thread for my own benefit too.  Thanks to those that have made fools of themselves, you have actually shown me what I sometimes do too.  And I will make more of an effort to help the youngsters and be polite to them.  I apologise to them where I've offended or hurt. 

?? Waheguru