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Beadbi Ramgarhia Sikh temple .. Again !!!


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Mere letters and phone calls without the weight of a very real power to replace these corrupt committee men are of limited use.

I agree , but I think its a starter keep prodding and probing the mgmt , will make them think twice( hopefully) of their own personal agenda . What else can we do ?

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To effect real positive change in the long run, it is entirely insufficient to merely get Meat and Alcohol off the proverbial menu. That is short term thinking.

I agree , but the mgmt agenda was to use the hall for social functions where meat and alcohol can be consumed . ( They posted letters to the so  called members stating if no one responds to the letter they sent out then their agenda would be approved and actioned .... which it was supposedly only 19/1800 people responded , so 19 no's and default 1781 YES in favor.

This was picked upon by a few and challenged and still being challenged since August 2016 . I agree long run objectives should be looked at and challenged as well . ( The mgmt have changed the Gurudawara constitution as well , which are against Gurmat and Sikhi  values )

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Corrupt gurudwaras should be abandoned by Sangat. Installing CCTV cameras will help to collect proof of wrongdoings.

I dont think the Gurudwara should be abandoned , especially when Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is present their. Give them the option to buck up your ideas or take out maharji's saroop from the Gurudawara , then they can do whatever they want.

Some good points AjeetSInghPunjabi , I was having a discussion with someone else regarding the Gurudawara structure . I think the biggest problem is "a body/organisation" which has the power to overturn a Gurudwaras objectives/constitution. As we know this power at the moment lies with the charity commission , providing the Gurudawara is a registered charity. But their power is to make sure money is not swindled , the Gurudwaras constitution are followed . They dont have the authority to tell the mgmt how to run a Gurudwara according to Gurmat and Sikhi principles. I think a proper vetted , objectives and role based Gurudwara structure needs to be setup and passed in parliament giving that structure/organisation the power to intervene at Gurudwaras not following its objectives. How will this be setup ? I think from discussion , seeking out the Gurmats,scholars,professionals amongst the sangat to align the objectives of a Gurudwara. This then be rolled out to all the Gurudawaras.

There may be information out their already , just need collating and presenting to the sangat at every Gurudwara in UK , then around the World. Because at the moment I feel there is none whatsover , and keep going round in circles. You have Sikh Council UK , Satkaar Committee , British Sikh Council , Ramagarhia Council UK , who don't have the power to override the wrongdoings at a Gurudwara. They try within their boundaries and limitations and then wither away when the response is low.

Regarding India and Punjab hopefully with wahegurus kirpa if we sort out our own neighbourhood first then we can help our brothers and sisters in Punjab. Punjab referendum 2020 , is the the next milestone to determine if our brothers and sisters in Punjab require their own state ( Again 2020 is approaching fast , I don't see this being televised or how the organisations are trying to educate the people from Punjab as to it's benefits).

May waheguru give us power and guidance to do the right thing even when numbers are low we can only hope and pray.

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On 5/7/2017 at 7:05 AM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

 I have a feeling most of punjabi sikh kaum are known to be show off kind of people . And our enemies know it well and exploit it.

I think this is what it boils down too. Apnay aren't half as clever as they like to think they are (in relation to other prominent communities/race), and apnay's relativily childlike deviousness gets seen from 10 miles away but other more prudent, strategic communities.  Also our people's egos are off the scale,  and people DO pander to this to manipulate us. And whilst most apnay are of this ilk, a certain prominent rural subsection of the community have got this problem to some next degree. 

So that is why we've been regularly subverted with egoist appeals to our vanity: so we are the 'sword arm of Hindus' or defenders of India at one point, or the most fiercely loyal chumchay in the Brit imperial war machine at another. This 'flattery' is just kindergarten level manipulation in my opinion.  

Even Pakistanis used to do it by referring to us all as 'sardars'. When I was younger I thought this was cool, but when I got older I realised that they were actually saying this in a tongue-in-cheek manner. 

 

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Ironically most Sikhs don't have big businesses in India . We only had Ranbaxy Pharma, but they sold it off too . We have Apollo tyres as well, but the CEO family has hindu names. How many large patrons do we really have ? why do we have so much of ghaddari genes in us ?

I don't think it's genetic (I bloody hope not!). I think it is learnt behaviour. Cultural traits.  I think the loyal, stalwart hardcore Sikhs achieved shaheedi at some point or another, and we have an imbalance of self-serving,  deceitful and disloyal and opportunistic people left now.  Plus we've had a culture of sycophancy that's been carefully spread amongst us since the 'annexation' of Panjab. 

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They will act first and think later.

That's worked wonders for us (and them) so far hasn't it....

There was a time when such things were advantageous. And in certain street level  situations, still can be.

But I don't really think pendu style thinking really cuts it in the greater scheme of things in the 21st century myself (most conspicuously in the crucial areas of economy and social cohesion). Obviously penduism has its supporters from amongst the pendus and (ironically) the descendants of pendus who've escaped the pend and actually live in cities and towns (fair play). But pendus failure to grasp (or accept) that people (both pendu and non-pendu) might not want to live and follow pendu principles is yet another example of typical thick brained penduness.  

Pendus rarely seem capable of rising above petty tribal loyalties. So any action they take will only be designed for their own benefit, as much as they might try and wrap it up in some cover of religiosity. All the other Sikhs see this. That's one reason why they get little support. 

If pendus want to pursue a certain path, they should be free to do so. If others don't want to follow that path and go another route, they should be free to too. I think it makes for a more dynamic and robust community that hasn't put all of its eggs in one basket.  

 

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3 hours ago, jashb said:

I don't agree with everything you've got to say. However, what you have pointed to here is a valid point.

Sophistication is not a trait overly associated with our people. I think this is a contributory factor to the way our people are slow to pick up on others' hidden inner motives.

We have largely been dumbed down into doe-eyed overly honest innocent kaffirs/malechh waiting to be taken advantage of. I believe that certain elements within the Kaum have deliberately propagated this honesty and innocence via distorted Parchar that has become so common now that it's almost fully accepted. I'm talking about the forceful prioritisation and pronouncement of the virtues of innocence and honesty in all our doings at the expense of sensible and necessary political expediency.

I think this played a part in turning some of our people into useful id1ots ready to do the bidding of others, out of a misguided and almost groomed sense of duty, entirely failing to comprehend the concealed inner motivations of those that were and are using and abusing them.

What is sad about our people's wholesale acceptance of such shortsighted behaviour is not only that it leaves them at the mercy of predators with no such misconceptions, but it actually flies in the face of Sikhi. We were actually given the hukam to instruct ourselves and our families in Raaj Niti by Dashmesh Pita. Yet we have accepted what is taught to us by fake sants and babas who have never seen a day's fight in their lives.

Because for too long we have not been sophisticated enough to practice the art of warfare with concealed weapons and motives, we have failed to recognise it when others like abrahamics and revived hindus were and are doing just that against us.

There is a very true saying that it takes one to recognise one.

What I wouldn't do, is generalise that all rural Sikhs or "pendus" to use the urban hindu casteist elitist derogatory term for them are easily manipulable and that urban Sikhs are immune to this.

I think it's far more serious than that. I think all Sikhs are prone to being used and abused like this. And I think the problem is at the heart of our religious/cultural dissemination.

Overall I think you hit the nail on the head there. 

I think much of the lullooness from our lot (that we are both alluding to), has its antecedents from the Christian, Victorian era influenced 'Sikhism' that was developed and promoted during a century of colonisation. 

The sad fact is, when our lot do get devious, they almost invariably use it to screw another apna over. And they'd readily screw another apna over at the behest of some outsider for patronage, a job, money, hell just to look good too. 

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2 hours ago, jashb said:

I disagree, and you are making a wild generalisation here.

The allegation being made, if I have understood it correctly, is that "pendus" only undertake direct action when some sort of personal benefit accrues to themselves out of it, and they subsequently have the gall to claim to have undertaken the same on behalf of the Panth.

As all of the Shaheed Singhs are labelled with this derogatory term and would obviously fit it by your criteria anyhow, let's consider a case in point.

We all know who was killed in the November 1984 Anti-Sikh pogroms. The innocent people massacred outside Panjab hundreds of miles away in places like Delhi and Kanpur were almost exclusively poor urban labourer Sikhs and middle class urban dwelling Sikhs. They were not rural Sikhs.

Yet these atrocities moved rural Sikhs like Bhai Kuki Gill and Shaheeds Jinda and Sukha so much so that they felt compelled to essentially embrace death in order to travel to Delhi to eliminate the two perpetrators of this genocide who were the most instrumental on the ground in organising and committing the massacres of urban Sikhs, that these rural Sikhs had no personal relation with.

Explain what personal benefit for taking these actions accrued to Bhai Kuki Gill and Shaheeds Jinda and Sukha, and thousands of others like them after 1984.

Your not picking up on an important nuance. I said previously, many (if not most) decent, dharmic, self-sacrificing apnay (both rural and otherwise) have achieved shaheedi. I'm talking about the general situation today. 

And people do play down (or are ignorant) of the economic aspect of the Khalistani movement too. When it was going on, it was directly alluded to. A lot of the changes being asked for, did relate to central government's agricultural policies. Which were obviously designed to benefit the agricultural community. To oversimplify everything that happened along purely religious lines is plain wrong.  

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