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The Christian menace to Sikhi in Canada


Guest Jagsaw_Singh
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7 minutes ago, KSVIRK said:

Caste prejudices should be eradicated yet it is rampant in our society. I think one factor is brahmanism influence. Yes,people were more caste prejudiced in the past. It seems people havent changed much. On Google,I found out there was a Granthi from an SC caste who was treated like scat by the Sangat in his Gurdwara Sahib.. thats why he converted.

I think sometimes even Brahmans are made as a bogeyman. 

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10 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

People are regressing back to superstitions. 

People always been superstitious there. Main religion in india is superstitions, even caste system is superstitious. Superstitions govern society there,  not religion. People still offer food and drinks to their ancestors, if something goes wrong they think it's because their ancestor isn't happy. My own family do this.  People have jatheras there   where people with the same surname offer their common ancestors food and drink.  In my mums pind we have a jathera for tarkhan ramgharias  and throngs of them come every year ritulistically to worship their ancestors.  People are completely lost in superstitions.   During winter people wrap the tombs of their ancestors with blankets!  No joke    my family do all this stuff. 

My dad was making scrambled eggs in our kitchen in the pind and my thias wife started sneezing and she said shes sneezing because our ancestor isn't happy that my dads making scrambled eggs in the kitchen.  A lot of the rules they follow is related to what will anger the ancestor and the jaggah. 

In my nanke pind I slept in the same room as my mama( who was completely drunk out of his mind)  and it was thundering outside     and the nxt morning my mami said that it's bad luck to sleep with your mama when its thundering and lightening outside, and she said she was too scared to come into the room and tell me to move to another room.

Iv lived with these people in India     they are crazy   everyone is mad there    their beliefs are superstitions 

That's why these deras, babas and churches are so popular. 

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50 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

There is an underlying problem there. It affects people along the social spectrum. 

Without wishing to go wildly off topic, casteism and intra-religious tensions and discrimination aren't limited to Sikhs. It's why an Arab Muslim would most likely hit the roof if his child got involved with a Muslim from Africa or in some cases even one from the Indian subcontinent.  That's not a justification for its perpetuation, or an attempt to downplay its existence, in our community, but most people in the West are just very, very tired of it by now. I don't think it's the same back in the Mother Land, lol. Their appetite for caste-based social drama remains undiminished as ever!

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17 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Without wishing to go wildly off topic, casteism and intra-religious tensions and discrimination aren't limited to Sikhs. It's why an Arab Muslim would most likely hit the roof if his child got involved with a Muslim from Africa or in some cases even one from the Indian subcontinent.  That's not a justification for its perpetuation, or an attempt to downplay its existence, in our community, but most people in the West are just very, very tired of it by now. I don't think it's the same back in the Mother Land, lol. Their appetite for caste-based social drama remains undiminished as ever!

Tribalism is tribalism and there is always a dominance hierarchy. 

I think people in India get a chemical rush, they live off the drama.

People in the west are far more individualistic than collectivist. 

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34 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Without wishing to go wildly off topic, casteism and intra-religious tensions and discrimination aren't limited to Sikhs. It's why an Arab Muslim would most likely hit the roof if his child got involved with a Muslim from Africa or in some cases even one from the Indian subcontinent.  That's not a justification for its perpetuation, or an attempt to downplay its existence, in our community, but most people in the West are just very, very tired of it by now. I don't think it's the same back in the Mother Land, lol. Their appetite for caste-based social drama remains undiminished as ever!

I think there are still plenty of people in the west who are as obsessed with it like the back home fudhus. It's just that wider cultural pressure/influence and ground realities suppress their illusions of grandeur somewhat and prevent from expressing their backwardness with the full vigor that would have been demonstrated otherwise - that we can all see in the pends backhome. 

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12 hours ago, Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh said:

Of course it's something else Ranjeet. The discussion taking place here among a couple of posters about caste is like someone that's never been to Portugal delivering a lecture about The Hills and Lakes of Portugal. The guy delivering the lecture needs to visit Portugal and the people talking about caste here need to get out there into the pends and cities of Doaba and see what's happening on the ground. There are Jatts, Tarkhans, Khatris, Churus and Chamars all becoming Christian (btw many of them still retain their kes and turban after conversion because the Christians preach the Nazerite gospel to them) and yet, even after conversion, each of those groups still only marry into their own groups etc. The grouping system (or caste - whatever you want to call it) remains intact even after they become Christian.  None of this has anything (hardly) to do with caste. The few here still talking about it are embarrassing themselves with their lack of knowledge of what's happening on the ground.  We all knew and accepted that the one trick pony Dallysingh101 was always going to take the discussion in that direction but the rest of the posters should have been intelligent enough not to fall in his trap.

I started this thread a long time ago hoping it would provoke some serious intelligent thinking and, if you look back at the first couple of pages, I've pointed out a few times that the Christians are finding it easy in Punjab because we, the Punjabis, are just too unintelligent to figure simple things out. Nothing to do with caste...….especially as the new mass of converts in Punjab are mostly high ranking Jatts and Khatris. It has everything to do with education and intelligence. When you have a society in which 99.9% of the decent schools in the state are Christian schools, it paints a picture in simple minds that being a Christian is associated with higher intelligence. And this brings us to the wider subject of intelligence itself :

The late great comedian once insulted his live show audience by calling them brainless dogs. They were laughing at his jokes and they found them really funny but Bill Hicks was a man that demanded more than that. He knew they were genuinely laughing because they genuinely thought the jokes funny but he also knew that they were not fully understanding the long preamble that was setting up the jokes and to Bill, that was more important than the punchline itself. So, he likened them to dogs watching a magician perform a magic card trick. The intelligent mind goes to a magic trick show knowing that the whole point is to be deceived. He knows he's about to be duped and simply finds it entertaining watching the magician dupe him. To the brainless dog however, the 7 of spades and the jack of hearts are both nothing but images on a piece of card. They watch the trick and they like it but they are not being duped because they don't even have the basic understanding to know that there is deceit and dupeness happening. Same with the masses in Punjab. They are not being deceived because they don't have the mental faculty to understand deceit. Like Bill Hick's brainless audience and the Dog watching the magic trick show they are simply appreciating and then swallowing everything that is thrown at them. To them, it's a simple question of maths that adds up. To them, the equation that makes sense is this:  Best schools are Christian + Rich western world is Christian + Nazerite gospels preach not cutting hair = Successful life. No dupeness going on. It's just that Bill Hicks's proverbial 'brainless dogs' reside in the state of Punjab.

Good post. Christian = Superior.

This is the point I was trying to tell Dally and the fact that people across all castes are becoming Christian so caste does not play a big factor.

I don't think he has ever been to Punjab.

He just spouts off a few history books he read. 

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7 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Good post. Christian = Superior.

This is the point I was trying to tell Dally and the fact that people across all castes are becoming Christian so caste does not play a big factor.

I don't think he has ever been to Punjab.

He just spouts off a few history books he read. 

Well I was born there, have lots of family connections there and I've probably worked with more desis than most of you put together. So I know full well what mentalities we are dealing with. 

The fact that discrimination, and having a political/economic set up out there that undeniably revolves around a particular caste identity (not to mention how popular media plays into the mess out there) can't be lost on even the most simplest of minds if they reflected. That this ugly truth strikes close to home for too many, leading them to go into denial mode doesn't change that. And that's what I think a lot of you are demonstrating here. 

The solution to the problem lies in a Sikhi based social set up, which certain people are loathe to even consider let alone implement - probably because they feel they would lose some perceived advantage over others - and the fact that they feel they have built up some 'identity' that gives them a false sense of superiority. The reason for the egalitarian, meritocratic vision of Sikhi seems clearly to overcome this nonsense and create a stronger, progressive, cohesive community. Failing to even try and implement this is the root of a lot (if not most!) of our woes. It's exactly the same as what Hindus did in the past and look at where it got them - into centuries of being enslaved by outsiders in their very own lands. But still we don't heed the lessons of ithihaas.

I agree that there is a serious intelligence problem within certain sections of the panth. The simple mindedness and petty thinking is pretty striking when you compare it to many other communities. I just haven't figured out whether this is genetic or the result of a 'culture' that has group think going on to abnormal levels. Some People just seem plain easier to manipulate and brainwash than others - by offering economic opportunities or appealing to caste based egos. This isn't anything new and certain goray figured this out quickly when they got to Panjab and manipulated it to (literally) devastating effect (for us). That some people still can't perceive this says a lot about the level of intelligence at play........ If people don't really have any internalised strong feeling towards certain core values of Sikhi when it comes to its social vision, then of course they will jump onto the next bandwagon that offers them x, y and z. 

And talking of this block headedness, it's interesting to note how you seem to disregard knowledge in books. No, it's not the be all and end all of everything, but to underplay the potential usefulness of this says a lot. Some people just seem to want to wallow in ignorance thinking it is some natural or desirable state. And I'm not some closeted bookish type, I'd say I'd probably be the least closeted out of all of you here - I live in the real world - I haven't been hidden from it. What would be the consequences of that mentality other than having a community that doesn't value gian and intellect?

The fact that we are having mad issues in Panjab with simple farming and the intelligent use of fertilisers whilst India has become the go to place for Europeans and the US to get satellites sent up into space just clearly juxtapositions and illustrates how far behind we have slipped with current mentalities. The responsibility for our current state lies in mentalities that people refuse to shake off, and anyone excusing or playing this down is culpable for our current condition. You could almost (at least partially) excuse people back home for their ignorance given the forces at play, but the way even people in the diaspora, who've received a basic education (and often more) and have been blessed to have perspectives outside of the desi one, still excuse away or deflect from certain ugly truths within our panth is another indicator of the level of 'intelligence' we are dealing with. Don't becoming part of the problem just because it hurts your ego. 

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4 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Well I was born there, have lots of family connections there and I've probably worked with more desis than most of you put together. So I know full well what mentalities we are dealing with. 

The fact that discrimination, and having a political/economic set up out there that undeniably revolves around a particular caste identity (not to mention how popular media plays into the mess out there) can't be lost on even the most simplest of minds if they reflected. That this ugly truth strikes close to home for too many, leading them to go into denial mode doesn't change that. And that's what I think a lot of you are demonstrating here. 

The solution to the problem lies in a Sikhi based social set up, which certain people are loathe to even consider let alone implement - probably because they feel they would lose some perceived advantage over others - and the fact that they feel they have built up some 'identity' that gives them a false sense of superiority. The reason for the egalitarian, meritocratic vision of Sikhi seems clearly to overcome this nonsense and create a stronger, progressive, cohesive community. Failing to even try and implement this is the root of a lot (if not most!) of our woes. It's exactly the same as what Hindus did in the past and look at where it got them - into centuries of being enslaved by outsiders in their very own lands. But still we don't heed the lessons of ithihaas.

I agree that there is a serious intelligence problem within certain sections of the panth. The simple mindedness and petty thinking is pretty striking when you compare it to many other communities. I just haven't figured out whether this is genetic or the result of a 'culture' that has group think going on to abnormal levels. Some People just seem plain easier to manipulate and brainwash than others - by offering economic opportunities or appealing to caste based egos. This isn't anything new and certain goray figured this out quickly when they got to Panjab and manipulated it to (literally) devastating effect (for us). That some people still can't perceive this says a lot about the level of intelligence at play........ If people don't really have any internalised strong feeling towards certain core values of Sikhi when it comes to its social vision, then of they will jump onto the next bandwagon that offers them x, y and z. 

And talking of this block headedness, it's interesting to note how you seem to disregard knowledge in books. No, it's not the be all and end all of everything, but to underplay the potential usefulness of this says a lot. Some people just seem to want to wallow in ignorance thinking it is some natural or desirable state. And I'm not some closeted bookish type, I'd say I'd probably be the least closeted out of all of you here - I live in the real world - I haven't been hidden from it. What would be the consequences of that mentality other than having a community that doesn't value gian and intellect?

The fact that we are having mad issues in Panjab with simple farming and the intelligent use of fertilisers whilst India has become the go to place for Europeans and the US to get satellites sent up into space just clearly juxtapositions and illustrates how far behind we have slipped with current mentalities. The responsibility for our current state lies in mentalities that people refuse to shake off, and anyone excusing or playing this down is culpable for our current condition. You could almost (at least partially) excuse people back home for their ignorance given the forces at play, but the way even people in the diaspora, who've received a basic education (and often more) and have been blessed to have perspectives outside of the desi one, still excuse away or deflect from certain ugly truths within our panth is another indicator of the level of 'intelligence' we are dealing with. Don't becoming part of the problem just because it hurts your ego. 

So you are not from Punjab and never been to Punjab then.

 

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