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Guest Jagsaw_Singh

The Christian menace to Sikhi in Canada

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12 hours ago, Guest Jigsaw_puzzled_singh said:

Of course it's something else Ranjeet. The discussion taking place here among a couple of posters about caste is like someone that's never been to Portugal delivering a lecture about The Hills and Lakes of Portugal. The guy delivering the lecture needs to visit Portugal and the people talking about caste here need to get out there into the pends and cities of Doaba and see what's happening on the ground. There are Jatts, Tarkhans, Khatris, Churus and Chamars all becoming Christian (btw many of them still retain their kes and turban after conversion because the Christians preach the Nazerite gospel to them) and yet, even after conversion, each of those groups still only marry into their own groups etc. The grouping system (or caste - whatever you want to call it) remains intact even after they become Christian.  None of this has anything (hardly) to do with caste. The few here still talking about it are embarrassing themselves with their lack of knowledge of what's happening on the ground.  We all knew and accepted that the one trick pony Dallysingh101 was always going to take the discussion in that direction but the rest of the posters should have been intelligent enough not to fall in his trap.

I started this thread a long time ago hoping it would provoke some serious intelligent thinking and, if you look back at the first couple of pages, I've pointed out a few times that the Christians are finding it easy in Punjab because we, the Punjabis, are just too unintelligent to figure simple things out. Nothing to do with caste...….especially as the new mass of converts in Punjab are mostly high ranking Jatts and Khatris. It has everything to do with education and intelligence. When you have a society in which 99.9% of the decent schools in the state are Christian schools, it paints a picture in simple minds that being a Christian is associated with higher intelligence. And this brings us to the wider subject of intelligence itself :

The late great comedian once insulted his live show audience by calling them brainless dogs. They were laughing at his jokes and they found them really funny but Bill Hicks was a man that demanded more than that. He knew they were genuinely laughing because they genuinely thought the jokes funny but he also knew that they were not fully understanding the long preamble that was setting up the jokes and to Bill, that was more important than the punchline itself. So, he likened them to dogs watching a magician perform a magic card trick. The intelligent mind goes to a magic trick show knowing that the whole point is to be deceived. He knows he's about to be duped and simply finds it entertaining watching the magician dupe him. To the brainless dog however, the 7 of spades and the jack of hearts are both nothing but images on a piece of card. They watch the trick and they like it but they are not being duped because they don't even have the basic understanding to know that there is deceit and dupeness happening. Same with the masses in Punjab. They are not being deceived because they don't have the mental faculty to understand deceit. Like Bill Hick's brainless audience and the Dog watching the magic trick show they are simply appreciating and then swallowing everything that is thrown at them. To them, it's a simple question of maths that adds up. To them, the equation that makes sense is this:  Best schools are Christian + Rich western world is Christian + Nazerite gospels preach not cutting hair = Successful life. No dupeness going on. It's just that Bill Hicks's proverbial 'brainless dogs' reside in the state of Punjab.

Good post. Christian = Superior.

This is the point I was trying to tell Dally and the fact that people across all castes are becoming Christian so caste does not play a big factor.

I don't think he has ever been to Punjab.

He just spouts off a few history books he read. 

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7 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Good post. Christian = Superior.

This is the point I was trying to tell Dally and the fact that people across all castes are becoming Christian so caste does not play a big factor.

I don't think he has ever been to Punjab.

He just spouts off a few history books he read. 

Well I was born there, have lots of family connections there and I've probably worked with more desis than most of you put together. So I know full well what mentalities we are dealing with. 

The fact that discrimination, and having a political/economic set up out there that undeniably revolves around a particular caste identity (not to mention how popular media plays into the mess out there) can't be lost on even the most simplest of minds if they reflected. That this ugly truth strikes close to home for too many, leading them to go into denial mode doesn't change that. And that's what I think a lot of you are demonstrating here. 

The solution to the problem lies in a Sikhi based social set up, which certain people are loathe to even consider let alone implement - probably because they feel they would lose some perceived advantage over others - and the fact that they feel they have built up some 'identity' that gives them a false sense of superiority. The reason for the egalitarian, meritocratic vision of Sikhi seems clearly to overcome this nonsense and create a stronger, progressive, cohesive community. Failing to even try and implement this is the root of a lot (if not most!) of our woes. It's exactly the same as what Hindus did in the past and look at where it got them - into centuries of being enslaved by outsiders in their very own lands. But still we don't heed the lessons of ithihaas.

I agree that there is a serious intelligence problem within certain sections of the panth. The simple mindedness and petty thinking is pretty striking when you compare it to many other communities. I just haven't figured out whether this is genetic or the result of a 'culture' that has group think going on to abnormal levels. Some People just seem plain easier to manipulate and brainwash than others - by offering economic opportunities or appealing to caste based egos. This isn't anything new and certain goray figured this out quickly when they got to Panjab and manipulated it to (literally) devastating effect (for us). That some people still can't perceive this says a lot about the level of intelligence at play........ If people don't really have any internalised strong feeling towards certain core values of Sikhi when it comes to its social vision, then of course they will jump onto the next bandwagon that offers them x, y and z. 

And talking of this block headedness, it's interesting to note how you seem to disregard knowledge in books. No, it's not the be all and end all of everything, but to underplay the potential usefulness of this says a lot. Some people just seem to want to wallow in ignorance thinking it is some natural or desirable state. And I'm not some closeted bookish type, I'd say I'd probably be the least closeted out of all of you here - I live in the real world - I haven't been hidden from it. What would be the consequences of that mentality other than having a community that doesn't value gian and intellect?

The fact that we are having mad issues in Panjab with simple farming and the intelligent use of fertilisers whilst India has become the go to place for Europeans and the US to get satellites sent up into space just clearly juxtapositions and illustrates how far behind we have slipped with current mentalities. The responsibility for our current state lies in mentalities that people refuse to shake off, and anyone excusing or playing this down is culpable for our current condition. You could almost (at least partially) excuse people back home for their ignorance given the forces at play, but the way even people in the diaspora, who've received a basic education (and often more) and have been blessed to have perspectives outside of the desi one, still excuse away or deflect from certain ugly truths within our panth is another indicator of the level of 'intelligence' we are dealing with. Don't becoming part of the problem just because it hurts your ego. 

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4 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Well I was born there, have lots of family connections there and I've probably worked with more desis than most of you put together. So I know full well what mentalities we are dealing with. 

The fact that discrimination, and having a political/economic set up out there that undeniably revolves around a particular caste identity (not to mention how popular media plays into the mess out there) can't be lost on even the most simplest of minds if they reflected. That this ugly truth strikes close to home for too many, leading them to go into denial mode doesn't change that. And that's what I think a lot of you are demonstrating here. 

The solution to the problem lies in a Sikhi based social set up, which certain people are loathe to even consider let alone implement - probably because they feel they would lose some perceived advantage over others - and the fact that they feel they have built up some 'identity' that gives them a false sense of superiority. The reason for the egalitarian, meritocratic vision of Sikhi seems clearly to overcome this nonsense and create a stronger, progressive, cohesive community. Failing to even try and implement this is the root of a lot (if not most!) of our woes. It's exactly the same as what Hindus did in the past and look at where it got them - into centuries of being enslaved by outsiders in their very own lands. But still we don't heed the lessons of ithihaas.

I agree that there is a serious intelligence problem within certain sections of the panth. The simple mindedness and petty thinking is pretty striking when you compare it to many other communities. I just haven't figured out whether this is genetic or the result of a 'culture' that has group think going on to abnormal levels. Some People just seem plain easier to manipulate and brainwash than others - by offering economic opportunities or appealing to caste based egos. This isn't anything new and certain goray figured this out quickly when they got to Panjab and manipulated it to (literally) devastating effect (for us). That some people still can't perceive this says a lot about the level of intelligence at play........ If people don't really have any internalised strong feeling towards certain core values of Sikhi when it comes to its social vision, then of they will jump onto the next bandwagon that offers them x, y and z. 

And talking of this block headedness, it's interesting to note how you seem to disregard knowledge in books. No, it's not the be all and end all of everything, but to underplay the potential usefulness of this says a lot. Some people just seem to want to wallow in ignorance thinking it is some natural or desirable state. And I'm not some closeted bookish type, I'd say I'd probably be the least closeted out of all of you here - I live in the real world - I haven't been hidden from it. What would be the consequences of that mentality other than having a community that doesn't value gian and intellect?

The fact that we are having mad issues in Panjab with simple farming and the intelligent use of fertilisers whilst India has become the go to place for Europeans and the US to get satellites sent up into space just clearly juxtapositions and illustrates how far behind we have slipped with current mentalities. The responsibility for our current state lies in mentalities that people refuse to shake off, and anyone excusing or playing this down is culpable for our current condition. You could almost (at least partially) excuse people back home for their ignorance given the forces at play, but the way even people in the diaspora, who've received a basic education (and often more) and have been blessed to have perspectives outside of the desi one, still excuse away or deflect from certain ugly truths within our panth is another indicator of the level of 'intelligence' we are dealing with. Don't becoming part of the problem just because it hurts your ego. 

So you are not from Punjab and never been to Punjab then.

 

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15 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

So you are not from Punjab and never been to Punjab then.

 

So you struggle with basic reading comprehension?

Quote

Well I was born there, have lots of family connections there and I've probably worked with more desis than most of you put together. So I know full well what mentalities we are dealing with. 

 

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1 minute ago, dallysingh101 said:

So you struggle with basic reading comprehension?

 

I very much doubt you were born there.

But I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

So how long have been in the UK and how many times have you been back to Punjab?

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18 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I very much doubt you were born there.

But I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

So how long have been in the UK and how many times have you been back to Punjab?

Been here a long time. I'm a descendant of an early immigrant here (my baba), went back in the early 2000s last. Got the land disputes going on now, so I haven't been back for a while (for good reason). Planning a trip to visit the Gurdwaras soon though (with Waheguru's kirpa). And I think you're deflecting from the points I made in my last post btw. Engage with the discussion Ranjeet, not throwing out tangents.  

What paranoid thinking has got you imagining I'm lying about my birthplace is anyone's guess. 

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5 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Been here a long time. I'm a descendant of an early immigrant here (my baba), went back in the early 2000s last. Got the land disputes going on now, so I haven't been back for a while (for good reason). Planning a trip to visit the Gurdwaras soon though (with Waheguru's kirpa). And I think you're deflecting from the points I made in my last post btw. Engage with the discussion Ranjeet, not throwing out tangents.  

What paranoid thinking has got you imagining I'm lying about my birthplace is anyone's guess. 

What do you think myself, Jagsaw, Puzzled and various others have been doing.

You just regurgitate points made by others and then try to pass them as your own.

You have mental problems and you seriously need counselling. 

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Just now, Ranjeet01 said:

What do you think myself, Jagsaw, Puzzled and various others have been doing.

You just regurgitate points made by others and then try to pass them as your own.

You have mental problems and you seriously need counselling. 

You have a rigidly inflexible mind when it comes to your caste, and that problem is not an uncommon one. Jumping on what you have to avoid discussion says it all. 

And you have serious problems with accepting facts when presented to you. Previously you prattled on about me being a 'duggu', despite repeatedly being told I have no family connections to Africa, then now you're doubting my statement about my birthplace. That seems mental to me. 

Don't try and shoot the messenger if they've highlighted a pressing issue regarding casteism and its negative effects on our panth. This is nothing new, and some people could predict what is happening today decades ago. But like you are doing yourself even now, people dismissed it. Now that we've got here, people like yourself still want to live in denial. How much worse do you want things to get before you acknowledge that serious mindset changes need to be made? Do you want it to go to a critical point of no return? 

Quote

What do you think myself, Jagsaw, Puzzled and various others have been doing.

I think often some of you have been trying to excuse or defend in the indefensible. Some more than others. 

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My fellow Juts are boorish, loud mouthed and quite domineering. We can be quite arrogant. 

But we are also proud and we take risks and get things done. We are also quite generous and quite open.

Most juts will admit their shortcomings. 

But if you think you can keep insulting people of my background then I will fight back.

You are very jealous of Juts and you are a very insecure person.

What you don't like is hearing an answer you don't like to hear because it does not fit with your narrative. 

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1 hour ago, Ranjeet01 said:

 

What you don't like is hearing an answer you don't like to hear because it does not fit with your narrative. 

Pot calling the kettle black.........

There is much more at stake than caste pride here, as the OP clearly shows. We continue like this as a panth, we are going to create even more serious problems - it's as simple as that. It's on your heads. You talk like yours is the only Panjabi community that takes risks and can stand up on their own two feet - which is false.

Don't perpetuate or excuse away serious issues. No one is jealous here, I couldn't and wouldn't want to be like you describe above. At this stage of life, I'm grasping that the destructive behaviour isn't done purposefully (like I may have thought in the past)- but it is still negatively affecting the panth for all to see. It needs to change, not be tolerated or excused away, like people like yourself do.

The behaviour you describe above (and it's often a lot worse than that), led to the alienation of Mazhbhi Sikhs. This led them to either try and form their own religious community outside of Sikhi or to join another one that didn't discriminate as much. After some time, the number of converts grew. As that convert community grew, so did the opportunity for other nonMazhbhi Sikhs to join the ranks, with status too (as preachers/padres) - this is what we are seeing. The nucleus of this community started as a direct result of appalling treatment and an internal antipathy between subgroups of rural Sikhs  - target and resolve that, and we starve the others of potential recruits. Fail to do that, and we provide them with more, simultaneously decreasing our own numbers - which in a democracy has serious implications. Don't think people can't see what is happening in front of our own eyes. 

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1 hour ago, dallysingh101 said:

Pot calling the kettle black.........

There is much more at stake than caste pride here, as the OP clearly shows. We continue like this as a panth, we are going to create even more serious problems - it's as simple as that. It's on your heads. You talk like yours is the only Panjabi community that takes risks and can stand up on their own two feet - which is false.

Don't perpetuate or excuse away serious issues. No one is jealous here, I couldn't and wouldn't want to be like you describe above. At this stage of life, I'm grasping that the destructive behaviour isn't done purposefully (like I may have thought in the past)- but it is still negatively affecting the panth for all to see. It needs to change, not be tolerated or excused away, like people like yourself do.

The behaviour you describe above (and it's often a lot worse than that), led to the alienation of Mazhbhi Sikhs. This led them to either try and form their own religious community outside of Sikhi or to join another one that didn't discriminate as much. After some time, the number of converts grew. As that convert community grew, so did the opportunity for other nonMazhbhi Sikhs to join the ranks, with status too (as preachers/padres) - this is what we are seeing. The nucleus of this community started as a direct result of appalling treatment and an internal antipathy between subgroups of rural Sikhs  - target and resolve that, and we starve the others of potential recruits. Fail to do that, and we provide them with more, simultaneously decreasing our own numbers - which in a democracy has serious implications. Don't think people can't see what is happening in front of our own eyes. 

If all the castes are going to Christianity then caste is not the problem.

Like all the posters have mentioned. 

 

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1 hour ago, Ranjeet01 said:

If all the castes are going to Christianity then caste is not the problem.

Like all the posters have mentioned. 

 

I just explained how the nucleus of the new community formed as a reaction to appalling behaviour within, that this has now snowballed into a wider problem was inevitable. It's just yet another example of a problem that was highlighted a long time ago being ignored or downplayed only to come back even worse. 

You're in straight denial. Thankfully I've not heard of anyone in my family converting yet. 

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42 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I just explained how the nucleus of the new community formed as a reaction to appalling behaviour within, that this has now snowballed into a wider problem was inevitable. It's just yet another example of a problem that was highlighted a long time ago being ignored or downplayed only to come back even worse. 

You're in straight denial. Thankfully I've not heard of anyone in my family converting yet. 

No.

Your theories come out straight out of the marxist playbook. 

Some of those lower castes are doing far better than those higher castes.

They are far less "oppressed" than you imagine. 

There are far more dynamics at play than you realise.

If you have been to Punjab and actually understand what the ground realities were instead of just reading some books you would grasp this.

There are nuances that you haven't picked up on.

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