The Christian menace to Sikhi in Canada

[MisterrSingh]

In Punjab? A combination of social mobility in order to escape the caste system that Sikhs like to pretend is a thing of the past, BUT for the desperately poor Sikhs it's rooted in access to medical assistance, and to a lesser extent employment opportunities where "people know people" in these Punjabi Christian communities who can help them make a living. It's not some overwhelming rejection of spiritual ideology in most cases, but more of a practical, survival tactic. Yes, our wealthy, pampered religious hierarchy and jathebandia of all hues are responsible for this crisis, and don't let anyone convince you otherwise. 

[Ranjeet01]

14 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

In Punjab? A combination of social mobility in order to escape the caste system that Sikhs like to pretend is a thing of the past, BUT for the desperately poor Sikhs it's rooted in access to medical assistance, and to a lesser extent employment opportunities where "people know people" in these Punjabi Christian communities who can help them make a living. It's not some overwhelming rejection of spiritual ideology in most cases, but more of a practical, survival tactic. Yes, our wealthy, pampered religious hierarchy and jathebandia of all hues are responsible for this crisis, and don't let anyone convince you otherwise. 

I am sceptical about the aspects of caste.

We had nearly 100 years of British rule with McCaulyite education and missionary were active then.

Society of the past was just as caste divided then as it is now (probably even more so then), so what is so different now?

One of the pastors is a Deol  (Jut name. Ironic since Juts are top of the Sikh hierarchy ), I am sure there are people in Punjab becoming Christian from all strata of society.

If all Punjab became Christian tomorrow, is the caste system going to get eradicated?

[dallysingh101]

21 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Society of the past was just as caste divided then as it is now (probably even more so then), so what is so different now?

I don't agree at all. 

I think the influence of our Gurus and especially Khalsa ethics were stronger in the past, they played a big part in attenuating caste prejudices . I'm not idealising the past, but I think the weakening of this Sikhi inspired social vision along new caste lines, which the brits encouraged to manipulate a particular group of people and weaken panthic unity for obvious divide and conquer strategies, helped bring us here. 

Jagjit Singh in his seminal The Sikh Revolution explores this in detail. 

You're just assuming today's situation reflects our people's past - I don't think it does. 

[Ranjeet01]

3 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I don't agree at all. 

I think the influence of our Gurus and especially Khalsa ethics were stronger in the past, it played a big part in attenuating caste prejudices . I'm not idealising the past, but I think the weakening of this Sikhi inspired social vision along new caste lines, which the brits encouraged to manipulate a particular group of people and weaken panthic unity for obvious divide and conquer strategies, helped bring us here. 

Jagjit Singh in his seminal The Sikh Revolution explores this in detail. 

Your just assuming today's situation reflects our people's past - I don't think it does. 

I am not too sure.

There are other things in play. Caste is far more layered and nuanced, there are a lot of complexities there.

People were far more caste prejudice in the past. 

[MisterrSingh]

20 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I am sceptical about the aspects of caste.

We had nearly 100 years of British rule with McCaulyite education and missionary were active then.

Society of the past was just as caste divided then as it is now (probably even more so then), so what is so different now?

One of the pastors is a Deol  (Jut name. Ironic since Juts are top of the Sikh hierarchy ), I am sure there are people in Punjab becoming Christian from all strata of society.

If all Punjab became Christian tomorrow, is the caste system going to get eradicated?

Imo, I don't think caste ever disappeared amongst Sikhs. It's a state of mind that's hardwired into people regardless of rekigion. It was subdued and genuinely grappled with by our Guru Sahibs, but once the masses assumed they were "gone" it just came out in the open again.

As for your question in bold, the Christian vultures know caste won't be erased, but they can sell the hope that it will be, to potential converts.

[dallysingh101]

4 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I am not too sure.

There are other things in play. Caste is far more layered and nuanced, there are a lot of complexities there.

People were far more caste prejudice in the past. 

Caste has been the number one thing that weakens panthic unity for a while now. It's got to astoundingly delusional levels, and I think even otherwise intelligent people fall for it. Look at how the people who are purportedly (according to some new man-made pseudo-Sikh 'hierarchy') at the 'top' are currently riddled with drug issues and have serious economic problems to the point of suicide epidemics. If that is the state of the 'top' then Waheguru help us all. Look at how certain caste identities pretty much dictates the political establishment in Panjab, keeping prosperity, opportunity and development on lockdown for the majority. Look at how the new set up has led to a conflation of Sikhs with excesses, servitude and bhangra paaing which is really something that originated from a particular (largely discarded) subculture that has spread itself through the panth since annexation. Our ancestors were nothing like we are now. How we were perceived and how our people profiled themselves in the past is not remotely like that of today. We were feared and respected back then, and had no problem with rapid, dynamically restructuring our social infrastructure to meet new challenges. 

By all accounts Panjab in the past was not the basket case it is today. 

Interesting extract from Forster 1783:

 

 

From: Rare documents on Sikhs and their rule in Punjab Edited by H. S. Bhatia

[dallysingh101]

duplicate

[Ranjeet01]

1 hour ago, MisterrSingh said:

Imo, I don't think caste ever disappeared amongst Sikhs. It's a state of mind that's hardwired into people regardless of rekigion. It was subdued and genuinely grappled with by our Guru Sahibs, but once the masses assumed they were "gone" it just came out in the open again.

As for your question in bold, the Christian vultures know caste won't be erased, but they can sell the hope that it will be, to potential converts.

I think there is this big thing about caste oppression but I think it is something else.

It is pure opportunism .

[puzzled]

The church and mass in Punjab is like a dera   that's why people are attracted to it.  The pastas do massive shows where they take spirits out of people    this is one way how they draw the crowds in     u can see videos online. Theres a lot of exorcisms ate these gatherings with massive crowds watching.   then there also is a lot of singing/dancing and clapping involved.  These christian gatherings are very theatrical and over the top. A lot of superstitions involved as well which indian people love    love demons possessing people etc. 

Churches are like deras in punjab  

Caste and poverty play a role in it aswell as these missionaries offer land and medicine,   but it's far bigger than just that. You would be surprised with the number of bhamans, jatts etc   that become christians. We have a Christian family in my dads pind that are sahotas which is a jatt second name. It's just another dera for these people. 

[puzzled]

People in india   love drama and entertainment     it has to be big and over the top     gurdwara are too simple for them, they dont understand sikhi.

Churches, deras, babas etc   offer them the full package of drama, entertainment, superstitions.

Indians have been so dumbed down