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can 5 Women give Amrit di Pahul to anyone ?


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Guest Jacfsing2

What was the point of this? I don't know why they call it Akal Takht Maryada when they should call it SGPC Maryada. If someone was going to take Amrit at Akal Takht there's really only 2 real choices of Maryada they'd get depending on who is Punj Pyare at the time: AKJ Maryada or the Gurmata Maryada, (Taksal), the odds of the SGPC Maryada is not very high. Also which Akal Takht are you referring to Jagtar Singh Hawara or Gurbachan Sio?

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Guest AjeetSinghPunjabi

Yes , why not ? remember it was Mata sahib kaur who put pataase in amrit . Khalsa was made by both a male and female, not just male. Sikhism is egalitarian religion . 

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Guest Jacfsing2
1 minute ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Sikhism is egalitarian religion . 

True.

1 minute ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Mata sahib kaur who put pataase in amrit.

It was Sri Mata Jito JI, yes despite Sri Mata Sahib Kaur JI being the mother of the Khalsa it was Sri Mata Jito JI who put the pataase in Khand-Di-Pahul, (the reason the story of Sri Mata Sahib Kaur Ji being the main story is because some non-Taksalis Khalsas wanted to respect their mother, so they made this story, which is respectable as she's our mother, but we shouldn't make false history).

5 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Khalsa was made by both a male and female, not just male. 

Khalsa was made from the Khoon of the Punj Pyare giving their heads, none were female and every true Sikh will respect that ithias, only 3HO and AKJ really made this a controversy.

7 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Yes , why not ? 

None of the Punj Pyare were female, and nor has there been any female guru. That's why. A child can still be Punj Pyare because some of the forms of Guru Sahib were children, but none being female and Guru Khalsa Panth.

 

Despite that, both men and women should take Amrit.

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On 01/05/2017 at 4:40 PM, Jacfsing2 said:

Khalsa was made from the Khoon of the Punj Pyare giving their heads, none were female and every true Sikh will respect that ithias, only 3HO and AKJ really made this a controversy.

Panj pyaareh cannot be anybody. Make this very clear in your own head veerjee before adding in your own biased opinion out of hatred of another jathebandi! For Guroo Sahib to take form in panj Khalsa, all 5 Sikh must have no hatred or dubda between each other. Secondly, to prepare Amrith all 5 must be of extremely high avasthaa, preferably 5 jyot vigaasi gurmukhs, yet this is increasingly difficult to find, therefore they must be the 5 highest calibre sikhs around at the time of the Amrith Sanchaar. Think about it logically, wouldn't you rather have 5 jyot vigaasi Singhneea acting on behalf of Guroo sahib rather than 5 singh who just about keep away from doing bujjar kurehat? If a Bibi is of higher avasthaa than the Singh's then what is there to stop her from doing seva of panj pyaareh? Before the human sareer is fully evolved in the womb weren't we all female? In Dharam raaj's Darbar, men and women alike are given equal sajaa, because there is no difference! Remenber that Guroo sahib was the only preacher of faith who expressed total equality in their time, so why would it stop at Amrith Sanchaar seva?

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36 minutes ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Panj pyaareh cannot be anybody. Make this very clear in your own head veerjee before adding in your own biased opinion out of hatred of another jathebandi! For Guroo Sahib to take form in panj Khalsa, all 5 Sikh must have no hatred or dubda between each other. Secondly, to prepare Amrith all 5 must be of extremely high avasthaa, preferably 5 jyot vigaasi gurmukhs, yet this is increasingly difficult to find, therefore they must be the 5 highest calibre sikhs around at the time of the Amrith Sanchaar. Think about it logically, wouldn't you rather have 5 jyot vigaasi Singhneea acting on behalf of Guroo sahib rather than 5 singh who just about keep away from doing bujjar kurehat? If a Bibi is of higher avasthaa than the Singh's then what is there to stop her from doing seva of panj pyaareh? Before the human sareer is fully evolved in the womb weren't we all female? In Dharam raaj's Darbar, men and women alike are given equal sajaa, because there is no difference! Remenber that Guroo sahib was the only preacher of faith who expressed total equality in their time, so why would it stop at Amrith Sanchaar seva?

The issue isn't to do with equal rights, its to do with the first amrit Sanchar. No woman stood up during the demand for a head (again that's not to say they were in any respect less than their male counter parts), the whole sanchar was first done with a total male (physical) make up. This Sanchar is the spiritual birth of a person, woman can also give birth to a person. They give it physically, both of these (spiritual and physical/Miri and Piri) are both halves that can't function without another. Just like a sperm and an egg is needed to conceive a child. The amrit sanchar allows men to give "birth" too, if anything this whole situation allows men and woman to give birth. Thus equality. The problem is people don't look at this Sanchar from a different angle, if we look at a lamp from the bottom obviously we'll only see darkness. Look at it directly and we see light. The same issue is present in those that claim the Anand Karaj is sexist because the woman is walking behind the male, they fail to see that the man isn't leading the woman, nor the other way around. Both of them are circling Guru Sahib and that is the centre of their lives.

Amrit Sanchars in general are done far too freely, I might be a bit of a puritan but going by the maryada from other previous Gursikhs it was done alot less frequently than now..

Also at the bold text. That's strictly not true. The eggs inside a woman all contain X chromosomes, for someone to be characterised as a woman they need XX chromosomes. The determination of the gender of the child comes from the male's sperm, since that contains half of the genetic code (both X sperm and Y sperm).  

In the case of Dharam Raaj you are 100% correct, there is no difference. But in the presence of dharaam raaj there is no male or female, just souls and deeds. He judges based on your deeds, There are so many spheres of reality and creation, all of which are bound to death. 

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Kira jee, the physical makeup of the first Amrith Sanchaar was all Indians, does that mean a Gurmukh of another race isn't allowed to do seva in Amrith Sanchaars? Jathedaar Bhai Rama Singh jee writes in their autobiography that they had a vision of Khalsa raaj, and in Khalsa raaj there were 5 pyaareh who governed Akaal Takhth, out of these panj, 3 of them were white Singhs, are they unsuitable for Amrith Sanchaar?

"This Sanchar is the spiritual birth of a person, woman can also give birth to a person. They give it physically, both of these (spiritual and physical/Miri and Piri) are both halves that can't function without another. Just like a sperm and an egg is needed to conceive a child. The amrit sanchar allows men to give "birth" too, if anything this whole situation allows men and woman to give birth. Thus equality. The problem is people don't look at this Sanchar from a different angle"

does the above mean that a women doesn't need to be in an Amrith Sanchaar because she has already given birth physically and therefore doesn't need to spiritually? Forgive me as I don't understand your point here. 

From what you've highlighted in bold, in terms of chromosomes, the Y chromosome doesn't "kick in" until further on in fetal development up until this point the foetus can technically be classed as female

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Guest Jacfsing2
1 hour ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Panj pyaareh cannot be anybody. Make this very clear in your own head veerjee before adding in your own biased opinion out of hatred of another jathebandi! For Guroo Sahib to take form in panj Khalsa, all 5 Sikh must have no hatred or dubda between each other. Secondly, to prepare Amrith all 5 must be of extremely high avasthaa, preferably 5 jyot vigaasi gurmukhs, yet this is increasingly difficult to find, therefore they must be the 5 highest calibre sikhs around at the time of the Amrith Sanchaar. Think about it logically, wouldn't you rather have 5 jyot vigaasi Singhneea acting on behalf of Guroo sahib rather than 5 singh who just about keep away from doing bujjar kurehat? If a Bibi is of higher avasthaa than the Singh's then what is there to stop her from doing seva of panj pyaareh? Before the human sareer is fully evolved in the womb weren't we all female? In Dharam raaj's Darbar, men and women alike are given equal sajaa, because there is no difference! Remenber that Guroo sahib was the only preacher of faith who expressed total equality in their time, so why would it stop at Amrith Sanchaar seva?

When Taksal, (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind's own made institution), declines it and Badal's Akal Takht allows female Punj Pyare you get a serious problem. The argument isn't about equality it's about Maryada, and the Gurmat Maryada and all Rehatnamas do not mention 5 Kaurs as Punj Pyare, (if you can post ANY Historical maryada instead of AKJ and 3HO emotional b.s. than I will consider looking at it).

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3 hours ago, Jacfsing2 said:

When Taksal, (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind's own made institution), declines it and Badal's Akal Takht allows female Punj Pyare you get a serious problem. The argument isn't about equality it's about Maryada, and the Gurmat Maryada and all Rehatnamas do not mention 5 Kaurs as Punj Pyare, (if you can post ANY Historical maryada instead of AKJ and 3HO emotional b.s. than I will consider looking at it).

Oh baba! How blind have you become!? Hanjee taksaal may have been started by Guroo Sahib but that doesn't mean they stay Nirmal forever. Baba Banda Singh Bahadur even lost their own battle with hankaar and Guroo sahib made them Jathedaar of the Khalsa! Has taksaal kept their ways puraatan in the last 400 years?? The answer is no jee, take rehraas for example; the nihang Singh's were started by Guroo sahib, and so was taksaal, but now they both do different styles of rehraas, so which one is puraatan? ? If you want to look closer into Amrith Sanchaars and puraatan maryada there, Taksaal now do Amrith Sanchaars in front of padh chedh saroops, printing of padh chedh is a MAHA MANMAT as quoted by Bhai Randhir Singh jee themselves (a world renowned jyot vigaasi Gurmukh). Taksaal also give Amrith 2 pyaareh at a time; in the first Amrith Sanchaar didn't all of the 5 singh take turns to bless Guroo sahib with Amrith? They weren't worried about finishing within a certain time were they? In addition to this, it is Taksaal who give separate rehat to men and women, i.e. A singh must tie a dastaar but it is a matter of personal choice for a woman; again Guroo sahib preaches equality so having different rehat based on gender goes against that completely doesn't it! The precious Taksaal that you so dearly defend even changed the method of giving naam dhrir to those who take Amrith! Google Max Arthur Caulfield; this Brit was sent to learn the ways of the sikhs during the guroos times and with all his information he had written a book called the history of the sikhs. So here's some primary evidence for you jee; Caulfield writes that once Amrith is given, the Guroo tells the disciple how naam da manthar is ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ and then begins to inhale vaah and exhale Guroo whilst placing their hand on the disciples Dasam duaar, this method was used to plant the beej of naam into the disciple. Once this is done the disciple continues to practice naam simran until the Amrith Sanchaar is complete and this method was first recorded when Guroo Naanak Dev jee began to administer charan pahul. Nowadays taksaal give Amrith to abhilakheean 2+ at a time and rush so fast that they don't even bother to properly listen to you say waheguru once! And then if that's not bad enough you are then told to practice mool manthar! An abhilakhee should have had months/years worth of mool manthar abhyaas before even walking into the Amrith Sanchaar anyway! Surely the actual method of learning this gupth manthar that Guroo sahib speaks of is one of the key reasons one should take Amrith! So they can learn and practice the gurmanthar! To quote Bhagath Kabeer Jee "Gupthaa Heeraa Pargat Bheiou Jab Gur Gum Dheeaa Dikhaae!" Or in English, that secret diamond became visible once the Guroo gave it to me! The diamond being a blatant reference to naam jugthee! You are so intent on maryada this, historical evidence that however Sikhi is such a beautiful Dharam that most of it is pure logic and what is right in the eyes of humanity! If something seems right, for example a Gurmukh Bibi administering Amrith instead of a singh who's lazy when it comes to rehat, then who is there to question that? Before an Amrith Sanchaar; and this has happened in an Amrith Sanchaar in which a Bibi has been allowed to to panj pyaareh di seva, all sevadaars are thoroughly questioned by the Jathedaar who is selected as a high avasthaa Gurmukh to ensure that they are all suitable to do Guroo jees seva; and to make sure I'm not straying off of my point; I know of many Taksaali Amrith Sanchaars where panj singh give their names forward, and they are asked if they do nitnem and have committed any bujjar kurehat, and if they answer correctly then they are given seva; surely that's not puraatan seeing as the first Amrith Sanchaar involved Guroo jee asking the panj pyaareh if they're willing to die for their Guroo! Jis pyaareh Sio nehu tis aagai maar chaleeai!

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Guest Jacfsing2
12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Oh baba! How blind have you become!?

Don't know if you even understand basic human respect, but since you probably don't I'll just tell you that Guru Sahib has taught Meeta Bol.

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Hanjee taksaal may have been started by Guroo Sahib but that doesn't mean they stay Nirmal forever. 

A Sikh would bow to even the shoe of the Guru, I'd be grateful to even see the his shoe, and you are talking about something founded as a much higher status.

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Has taksaal kept their ways puraatan in the last 400 years?? The answer is no jee, take rehraas for example; the nihang Singh's were started by Guroo sahib, and so was taksaal, but now they both do different styles of rehraas, so which one is puraatan? ? 

I agree with you on this, so on this point you win because I have no answer, (someone else may have an answer, but I don't have one). :waheguru:

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

If you want to look closer into Amrith Sanchaars and puraatan maryada there, Taksaal now do Amrith Sanchaars in front of padh chedh saroops, printing of padh chedh is a MAHA MANMAT as quoted by Bhai Randhir Singh jee themselves (a world renowned jyot vigaasi Gurmukh). 

Bhai Randhir Singh may have said many great things, and reminded the Panth of lost qualities, (such as Sikhs being the best), but he's not Bhai Gurdas or Bhai Nand Lal or Guru Sahib, so use those quotes instead.

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Taksaal also give Amrith 2 pyaareh at a time; in the first Amrith Sanchaar didn't all of the 5 singh take turns to bless Guroo sahib with Amrith? They weren't worried about finishing within a certain time were they? 

Respectfully I'm going to ask, what's the problem with doing an Amrit Sanchar on time? 

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

In addition to this, it is Taksaal who give separate rehat to men and women, i.e. A singh must tie a dastaar but it is a matter of personal choice for a woman; again Guroo sahib preaches equality so having different rehat based on gender goes against that completely doesn't it! 

Agree with this, but Keski isn't a Kakkar. (Don't change this into a Keski requirement on whether it's a Kakkar or not).

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

The precious Taksaal that you so dearly defend even changed the method of giving naam dhrir to those who take Amrith! Google Max Arthur Caulfield; this Brit was sent to learn the ways of the sikhs during the guroos times and with all his information he had written a book called the history of the sikhs. So here's some primary evidence for you jee; Caulfield writes that once Amrith is given, the Guroo tells the disciple how naam da manthar is ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ and then begins to inhale vaah and exhale Guroo whilst placing their hand on the disciples Dasam duaar, this method was used to plant the beej of naam into the disciple. Once this is done the disciple continues to practice naam simran until the Amrith Sanchaar is complete and this method was first recorded when Guroo Naanak Dev jee began to administer charan pahul. Nowadays taksaal give Amrith to abhilakheean 2+ at a time and rush so fast that they don't even bother to properly listen to you say waheguru once! And then if that's not bad enough you are then told to practice mool manthar! An abhilakhee should have had months/years worth of mool manthar abhyaas before even walking into the Amrith Sanchaar anyway! Surely the actual method of learning this gupth manthar that Guroo sahib speaks of is one of the key reasons one should take Amrith! So they can learn and practice the gurmanthar! To quote Bhagath Kabeer Jee "Gupthaa Heeraa Pargat Bheiou Jab Gur Gum Dheeaa Dikhaae!" Or in English, that secret diamond became visible once the Guroo gave it to me! The diamond being a blatant reference to naam jugthee! )

One, I am not a Taksali, just a person with some Sikhi, compared to the Baba Deep Singh Ji's and Sant Jarnail Singh Bhinderwale's I am nothing, but you insult the Taksal like they had some big thing wrong with them. You do realize Bhai Randhir Singh didn't receive Naam this way either, so your calling his Amrit Sanchar fake to aren't you?

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

You are so intent on maryada this, historical evidence that however Sikhi is such a beautiful Dharam that most of it is pure logic and what is right in the eyes of humanity! 

First learn some respect, this keeps going back to the same thing, (do you know basic manners?) Again I agree that there is equality, but you are so bent on changing this from Taksal and AKJ to you and me, when I haven't tried making this about you.

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

If something seems right, for example a Gurmukh Bibi administering Amrith instead of a singh who's lazy when it comes to rehat, then who is there to question that? Before an Amrith Sanchaar; and this has happened in an Amrith Sanchaar in which a Bibi has been allowed to to panj pyaareh di seva, all sevadaars are thoroughly questioned by the Jathedaar who is selected as a high avasthaa Gurmukh to ensure that they are all suitable to do Guroo jees seva; and to make sure I'm not straying off of my point; I know of many Taksaali Amrith Sanchaars where panj singh give their names forward, and they are asked if they do nitnem and have committed any bujjar kurehat, and if they answer correctly then they are given seva; surely that's not puraatan seeing as the first Amrith Sanchaar involved Guroo jee asking the panj pyaareh if they're willing to die for their Guroo! Jis pyaareh Sio nehu tis aagai maar chaleeai!

Women aren't allowed to be Punj Pyare, so your entire statement is flawed, (unless you believe in Badal's Akal Takht Maryada.) If there was a Bibi wasting everyone's time at an "Amrit Sanchar" being a Punj Pyare,(Badal Maryada approved), I'd just not want to be there. Even Sant Jarnail Singh Bhinderwale Ji was against such Pakhand, and compared to him, we both are nothing, (but Nirmatta probably is a concept too hard for you to understand).

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