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Guest Jacfsing2

What was the point of this? I don't know why they call it Akal Takht Maryada when they should call it SGPC Maryada. If someone was going to take Amrit at Akal Takht there's really only 2 real choices of Maryada they'd get depending on who is Punj Pyare at the time: AKJ Maryada or the Gurmata Maryada, (Taksal), the odds of the SGPC Maryada is not very high. Also which Akal Takht are you referring to Jagtar Singh Hawara or Gurbachan Sio?

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Guest AjeetSinghPunjabi

Yes , why not ? remember it was Mata sahib kaur who put pataase in amrit . Khalsa was made by both a male and female, not just male. Sikhism is egalitarian religion . 

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Guest Jacfsing2
1 minute ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Sikhism is egalitarian religion . 

True.

1 minute ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Mata sahib kaur who put pataase in amrit.

It was Sri Mata Jito JI, yes despite Sri Mata Sahib Kaur JI being the mother of the Khalsa it was Sri Mata Jito JI who put the pataase in Khand-Di-Pahul, (the reason the story of Sri Mata Sahib Kaur Ji being the main story is because some non-Taksalis Khalsas wanted to respect their mother, so they made this story, which is respectable as she's our mother, but we shouldn't make false history).

5 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Khalsa was made by both a male and female, not just male. 

Khalsa was made from the Khoon of the Punj Pyare giving their heads, none were female and every true Sikh will respect that ithias, only 3HO and AKJ really made this a controversy.

7 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Yes , why not ? 

None of the Punj Pyare were female, and nor has there been any female guru. That's why. A child can still be Punj Pyare because some of the forms of Guru Sahib were children, but none being female and Guru Khalsa Panth.

 

Despite that, both men and women should take Amrit.

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On 01/05/2017 at 4:40 PM, Jacfsing2 said:

Khalsa was made from the Khoon of the Punj Pyare giving their heads, none were female and every true Sikh will respect that ithias, only 3HO and AKJ really made this a controversy.

Panj pyaareh cannot be anybody. Make this very clear in your own head veerjee before adding in your own biased opinion out of hatred of another jathebandi! For Guroo Sahib to take form in panj Khalsa, all 5 Sikh must have no hatred or dubda between each other. Secondly, to prepare Amrith all 5 must be of extremely high avasthaa, preferably 5 jyot vigaasi gurmukhs, yet this is increasingly difficult to find, therefore they must be the 5 highest calibre sikhs around at the time of the Amrith Sanchaar. Think about it logically, wouldn't you rather have 5 jyot vigaasi Singhneea acting on behalf of Guroo sahib rather than 5 singh who just about keep away from doing bujjar kurehat? If a Bibi is of higher avasthaa than the Singh's then what is there to stop her from doing seva of panj pyaareh? Before the human sareer is fully evolved in the womb weren't we all female? In Dharam raaj's Darbar, men and women alike are given equal sajaa, because there is no difference! Remenber that Guroo sahib was the only preacher of faith who expressed total equality in their time, so why would it stop at Amrith Sanchaar seva?

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36 minutes ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Panj pyaareh cannot be anybody. Make this very clear in your own head veerjee before adding in your own biased opinion out of hatred of another jathebandi! For Guroo Sahib to take form in panj Khalsa, all 5 Sikh must have no hatred or dubda between each other. Secondly, to prepare Amrith all 5 must be of extremely high avasthaa, preferably 5 jyot vigaasi gurmukhs, yet this is increasingly difficult to find, therefore they must be the 5 highest calibre sikhs around at the time of the Amrith Sanchaar. Think about it logically, wouldn't you rather have 5 jyot vigaasi Singhneea acting on behalf of Guroo sahib rather than 5 singh who just about keep away from doing bujjar kurehat? If a Bibi is of higher avasthaa than the Singh's then what is there to stop her from doing seva of panj pyaareh? Before the human sareer is fully evolved in the womb weren't we all female? In Dharam raaj's Darbar, men and women alike are given equal sajaa, because there is no difference! Remenber that Guroo sahib was the only preacher of faith who expressed total equality in their time, so why would it stop at Amrith Sanchaar seva?

The issue isn't to do with equal rights, its to do with the first amrit Sanchar. No woman stood up during the demand for a head (again that's not to say they were in any respect less than their male counter parts), the whole sanchar was first done with a total male (physical) make up. This Sanchar is the spiritual birth of a person, woman can also give birth to a person. They give it physically, both of these (spiritual and physical/Miri and Piri) are both halves that can't function without another. Just like a sperm and an egg is needed to conceive a child. The amrit sanchar allows men to give "birth" too, if anything this whole situation allows men and woman to give birth. Thus equality. The problem is people don't look at this Sanchar from a different angle, if we look at a lamp from the bottom obviously we'll only see darkness. Look at it directly and we see light. The same issue is present in those that claim the Anand Karaj is sexist because the woman is walking behind the male, they fail to see that the man isn't leading the woman, nor the other way around. Both of them are circling Guru Sahib and that is the centre of their lives.

Amrit Sanchars in general are done far too freely, I might be a bit of a puritan but going by the maryada from other previous Gursikhs it was done alot less frequently than now..

Also at the bold text. That's strictly not true. The eggs inside a woman all contain X chromosomes, for someone to be characterised as a woman they need XX chromosomes. The determination of the gender of the child comes from the male's sperm, since that contains half of the genetic code (both X sperm and Y sperm).  

In the case of Dharam Raaj you are 100% correct, there is no difference. But in the presence of dharaam raaj there is no male or female, just souls and deeds. He judges based on your deeds, There are so many spheres of reality and creation, all of which are bound to death. 

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Kira jee, the physical makeup of the first Amrith Sanchaar was all Indians, does that mean a Gurmukh of another race isn't allowed to do seva in Amrith Sanchaars? Jathedaar Bhai Rama Singh jee writes in their autobiography that they had a vision of Khalsa raaj, and in Khalsa raaj there were 5 pyaareh who governed Akaal Takhth, out of these panj, 3 of them were white Singhs, are they unsuitable for Amrith Sanchaar?

"This Sanchar is the spiritual birth of a person, woman can also give birth to a person. They give it physically, both of these (spiritual and physical/Miri and Piri) are both halves that can't function without another. Just like a sperm and an egg is needed to conceive a child. The amrit sanchar allows men to give "birth" too, if anything this whole situation allows men and woman to give birth. Thus equality. The problem is people don't look at this Sanchar from a different angle"

does the above mean that a women doesn't need to be in an Amrith Sanchaar because she has already given birth physically and therefore doesn't need to spiritually? Forgive me as I don't understand your point here. 

From what you've highlighted in bold, in terms of chromosomes, the Y chromosome doesn't "kick in" until further on in fetal development up until this point the foetus can technically be classed as female

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Guest Jacfsing2
1 hour ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Panj pyaareh cannot be anybody. Make this very clear in your own head veerjee before adding in your own biased opinion out of hatred of another jathebandi! For Guroo Sahib to take form in panj Khalsa, all 5 Sikh must have no hatred or dubda between each other. Secondly, to prepare Amrith all 5 must be of extremely high avasthaa, preferably 5 jyot vigaasi gurmukhs, yet this is increasingly difficult to find, therefore they must be the 5 highest calibre sikhs around at the time of the Amrith Sanchaar. Think about it logically, wouldn't you rather have 5 jyot vigaasi Singhneea acting on behalf of Guroo sahib rather than 5 singh who just about keep away from doing bujjar kurehat? If a Bibi is of higher avasthaa than the Singh's then what is there to stop her from doing seva of panj pyaareh? Before the human sareer is fully evolved in the womb weren't we all female? In Dharam raaj's Darbar, men and women alike are given equal sajaa, because there is no difference! Remenber that Guroo sahib was the only preacher of faith who expressed total equality in their time, so why would it stop at Amrith Sanchaar seva?

When Taksal, (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind's own made institution), declines it and Badal's Akal Takht allows female Punj Pyare you get a serious problem. The argument isn't about equality it's about Maryada, and the Gurmat Maryada and all Rehatnamas do not mention 5 Kaurs as Punj Pyare, (if you can post ANY Historical maryada instead of AKJ and 3HO emotional b.s. than I will consider looking at it).

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3 hours ago, Jacfsing2 said:

When Taksal, (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind's own made institution), declines it and Badal's Akal Takht allows female Punj Pyare you get a serious problem. The argument isn't about equality it's about Maryada, and the Gurmat Maryada and all Rehatnamas do not mention 5 Kaurs as Punj Pyare, (if you can post ANY Historical maryada instead of AKJ and 3HO emotional b.s. than I will consider looking at it).

Oh baba! How blind have you become!? Hanjee taksaal may have been started by Guroo Sahib but that doesn't mean they stay Nirmal forever. Baba Banda Singh Bahadur even lost their own battle with hankaar and Guroo sahib made them Jathedaar of the Khalsa! Has taksaal kept their ways puraatan in the last 400 years?? The answer is no jee, take rehraas for example; the nihang Singh's were started by Guroo sahib, and so was taksaal, but now they both do different styles of rehraas, so which one is puraatan? 🤔 If you want to look closer into Amrith Sanchaars and puraatan maryada there, Taksaal now do Amrith Sanchaars in front of padh chedh saroops, printing of padh chedh is a MAHA MANMAT as quoted by Bhai Randhir Singh jee themselves (a world renowned jyot vigaasi Gurmukh). Taksaal also give Amrith 2 pyaareh at a time; in the first Amrith Sanchaar didn't all of the 5 singh take turns to bless Guroo sahib with Amrith? They weren't worried about finishing within a certain time were they? In addition to this, it is Taksaal who give separate rehat to men and women, i.e. A singh must tie a dastaar but it is a matter of personal choice for a woman; again Guroo sahib preaches equality so having different rehat based on gender goes against that completely doesn't it! The precious Taksaal that you so dearly defend even changed the method of giving naam dhrir to those who take Amrith! Google Max Arthur Caulfield; this Brit was sent to learn the ways of the sikhs during the guroos times and with all his information he had written a book called the history of the sikhs. So here's some primary evidence for you jee; Caulfield writes that once Amrith is given, the Guroo tells the disciple how naam da manthar is ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ and then begins to inhale vaah and exhale Guroo whilst placing their hand on the disciples Dasam duaar, this method was used to plant the beej of naam into the disciple. Once this is done the disciple continues to practice naam simran until the Amrith Sanchaar is complete and this method was first recorded when Guroo Naanak Dev jee began to administer charan pahul. Nowadays taksaal give Amrith to abhilakheean 2+ at a time and rush so fast that they don't even bother to properly listen to you say waheguru once! And then if that's not bad enough you are then told to practice mool manthar! An abhilakhee should have had months/years worth of mool manthar abhyaas before even walking into the Amrith Sanchaar anyway! Surely the actual method of learning this gupth manthar that Guroo sahib speaks of is one of the key reasons one should take Amrith! So they can learn and practice the gurmanthar! To quote Bhagath Kabeer Jee "Gupthaa Heeraa Pargat Bheiou Jab Gur Gum Dheeaa Dikhaae!" Or in English, that secret diamond became visible once the Guroo gave it to me! The diamond being a blatant reference to naam jugthee! You are so intent on maryada this, historical evidence that however Sikhi is such a beautiful Dharam that most of it is pure logic and what is right in the eyes of humanity! If something seems right, for example a Gurmukh Bibi administering Amrith instead of a singh who's lazy when it comes to rehat, then who is there to question that? Before an Amrith Sanchaar; and this has happened in an Amrith Sanchaar in which a Bibi has been allowed to to panj pyaareh di seva, all sevadaars are thoroughly questioned by the Jathedaar who is selected as a high avasthaa Gurmukh to ensure that they are all suitable to do Guroo jees seva; and to make sure I'm not straying off of my point; I know of many Taksaali Amrith Sanchaars where panj singh give their names forward, and they are asked if they do nitnem and have committed any bujjar kurehat, and if they answer correctly then they are given seva; surely that's not puraatan seeing as the first Amrith Sanchaar involved Guroo jee asking the panj pyaareh if they're willing to die for their Guroo! Jis pyaareh Sio nehu tis aagai maar chaleeai!

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Guest Jacfsing2
12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Oh baba! How blind have you become!?

Don't know if you even understand basic human respect, but since you probably don't I'll just tell you that Guru Sahib has taught Meeta Bol.

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Hanjee taksaal may have been started by Guroo Sahib but that doesn't mean they stay Nirmal forever. 

A Sikh would bow to even the shoe of the Guru, I'd be grateful to even see the his shoe, and you are talking about something founded as a much higher status.

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Has taksaal kept their ways puraatan in the last 400 years?? The answer is no jee, take rehraas for example; the nihang Singh's were started by Guroo sahib, and so was taksaal, but now they both do different styles of rehraas, so which one is puraatan? 🤔 

I agree with you on this, so on this point you win because I have no answer, (someone else may have an answer, but I don't have one). :waheguru:

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

If you want to look closer into Amrith Sanchaars and puraatan maryada there, Taksaal now do Amrith Sanchaars in front of padh chedh saroops, printing of padh chedh is a MAHA MANMAT as quoted by Bhai Randhir Singh jee themselves (a world renowned jyot vigaasi Gurmukh). 

Bhai Randhir Singh may have said many great things, and reminded the Panth of lost qualities, (such as Sikhs being the best), but he's not Bhai Gurdas or Bhai Nand Lal or Guru Sahib, so use those quotes instead.

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Taksaal also give Amrith 2 pyaareh at a time; in the first Amrith Sanchaar didn't all of the 5 singh take turns to bless Guroo sahib with Amrith? They weren't worried about finishing within a certain time were they? 

Respectfully I'm going to ask, what's the problem with doing an Amrit Sanchar on time? 

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

In addition to this, it is Taksaal who give separate rehat to men and women, i.e. A singh must tie a dastaar but it is a matter of personal choice for a woman; again Guroo sahib preaches equality so having different rehat based on gender goes against that completely doesn't it! 

Agree with this, but Keski isn't a Kakkar. (Don't change this into a Keski requirement on whether it's a Kakkar or not).

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

The precious Taksaal that you so dearly defend even changed the method of giving naam dhrir to those who take Amrith! Google Max Arthur Caulfield; this Brit was sent to learn the ways of the sikhs during the guroos times and with all his information he had written a book called the history of the sikhs. So here's some primary evidence for you jee; Caulfield writes that once Amrith is given, the Guroo tells the disciple how naam da manthar is ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ and then begins to inhale vaah and exhale Guroo whilst placing their hand on the disciples Dasam duaar, this method was used to plant the beej of naam into the disciple. Once this is done the disciple continues to practice naam simran until the Amrith Sanchaar is complete and this method was first recorded when Guroo Naanak Dev jee began to administer charan pahul. Nowadays taksaal give Amrith to abhilakheean 2+ at a time and rush so fast that they don't even bother to properly listen to you say waheguru once! And then if that's not bad enough you are then told to practice mool manthar! An abhilakhee should have had months/years worth of mool manthar abhyaas before even walking into the Amrith Sanchaar anyway! Surely the actual method of learning this gupth manthar that Guroo sahib speaks of is one of the key reasons one should take Amrith! So they can learn and practice the gurmanthar! To quote Bhagath Kabeer Jee "Gupthaa Heeraa Pargat Bheiou Jab Gur Gum Dheeaa Dikhaae!" Or in English, that secret diamond became visible once the Guroo gave it to me! The diamond being a blatant reference to naam jugthee! )

One, I am not a Taksali, just a person with some Sikhi, compared to the Baba Deep Singh Ji's and Sant Jarnail Singh Bhinderwale's I am nothing, but you insult the Taksal like they had some big thing wrong with them. You do realize Bhai Randhir Singh didn't receive Naam this way either, so your calling his Amrit Sanchar fake to aren't you?

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

You are so intent on maryada this, historical evidence that however Sikhi is such a beautiful Dharam that most of it is pure logic and what is right in the eyes of humanity! 

First learn some respect, this keeps going back to the same thing, (do you know basic manners?) Again I agree that there is equality, but you are so bent on changing this from Taksal and AKJ to you and me, when I haven't tried making this about you.

12 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

If something seems right, for example a Gurmukh Bibi administering Amrith instead of a singh who's lazy when it comes to rehat, then who is there to question that? Before an Amrith Sanchaar; and this has happened in an Amrith Sanchaar in which a Bibi has been allowed to to panj pyaareh di seva, all sevadaars are thoroughly questioned by the Jathedaar who is selected as a high avasthaa Gurmukh to ensure that they are all suitable to do Guroo jees seva; and to make sure I'm not straying off of my point; I know of many Taksaali Amrith Sanchaars where panj singh give their names forward, and they are asked if they do nitnem and have committed any bujjar kurehat, and if they answer correctly then they are given seva; surely that's not puraatan seeing as the first Amrith Sanchaar involved Guroo jee asking the panj pyaareh if they're willing to die for their Guroo! Jis pyaareh Sio nehu tis aagai maar chaleeai!

Women aren't allowed to be Punj Pyare, so your entire statement is flawed, (unless you believe in Badal's Akal Takht Maryada.) If there was a Bibi wasting everyone's time at an "Amrit Sanchar" being a Punj Pyare,(Badal Maryada approved), I'd just not want to be there. Even Sant Jarnail Singh Bhinderwale Ji was against such Pakhand, and compared to him, we both are nothing, (but Nirmatta probably is a concept too hard for you to understand).

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Guest Jacfsing2
9 minutes ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Maaf karo jee, I don't care so much for respect as when I see something I say it regardless of who I may offend etc; personally speaking I have realised in my time that sikhs in general have become soft and butt hurt over small small matters rather than the brave, wise, Guroo's faujan that our forefathers were. Most Sikhs, daas especially, don't deserve respect due to not even being able to follow the hukams that Guroo sahib has given us and the lack of pyaar for our own Guroo jee :(

And how do you know your side is right? If you ask me, old Singhs and Kaurs would still respect each other, now you get people taking off each others Dastars and yanking their Keshas, that we've become a complete joke.

9 minutes ago, AjaipalSingh said:

You could also flip the script with this point jeeo; if you look at it from another angle. Guroo Naanak Dev Jee bought Baba Sri Chand into this world, who proved himself to be far from a gursikh. Does that mean we should have done matha Tekh to him? Because he was Guroo Sahib's own blood and flesh?

An educational institution and some man who happens to be related to the light of Vaheguru are not the same. "In putran ki sees par diye sut chaar, chaar moye to kia hua jeevad kai hazaar" (if I messed-up someone can correct me). But Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Amar Daa Ji himself respected Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Angad Dev Ji's son and when he kicked him, asked if Bhai Datu was hurt, Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Ram Das Ji also let Sri Chand into him and gave respect.

16 minutes ago, AjaipalSingh said:

The true Sikh realises that there is no difference whatsoever between Gurmukh, Guroo and Akaal Purakh. The Gurmukh may have all of the power and shakti of Akaal purakh, yet they choose to remain inside of guroos hukam. This was the reason for Guroo Arjan Dev jee and Guroo Tegh Bahadur jee bearing all of the pain of their own shaheedian, rather than using karaamaat to save themselves

So is Sant Jarnail Singh Bhinderwale wrong? He's probably a bigger Mahapurukh, is Baba Deep Singh Ji and Bhai Mani Singh also wrong? AKJ and Taksal are not the same and logically speaking Vaheguru is always right, so who's wrong?

19 minutes ago, AjaipalSingh said:

An Amrith Sanchaar shouldn't be planned to finish at a certain time jee; if you have a set time to finish, then you run the risk of having to rush, which may result in parts of explaining rehat maryada missed out etc. An Amrith Sanchaar is still one of every Sikhs 4 Sanskaars, so why would you bother rushing?

Either I'm unlucky or just not very knowledgeable, but every Anand Karaj I have ever been to has been relatively quick. And that's also one of the 4 ceremonies.

20 minutes ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Kes keski is more a matter of opinion jee as there is plenty of evidence supporting both, the more the better right? :) however I do believe that a wearing a dastaar, in public at the very least, should be mandatory for all of us, especially as it's the main part of Sikhi Saroop!

I don't want to argue about Keski requirements, but Keski should be used to protect Kesh, much better than any Chunni can. Sadly, most women today don't even wear that to keep Kesh protected, (even Amritdharis), but I don't think Keski should be required if Taksal or Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Hargobind's Ji's Blessed Akal Takht doesn't require it either.

24 minutes ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Naanak Amrith ek hai dhoojaa Amrith naahi; although Amrith is the same, whether it is made by panj pyaareh doing nitnem baaneea, or forming in the Dasam duaar, or trickling down your throat into the bata of rehat that sits inside of us. However, when physically making Amrith, there is maryada that Guroo sahib has put in place for us to follow; why would Guroo sahib bother making a maryada on how Amrith should have been made if in 2017 we decide not to follow any of it???

There is one way to receive naam in gurmat; and that is for Guroo sahib to show you; hanjee Guroo sahib takes many forms; so Guroo Gobind Singh Jee may give darshan and teach naam jugthee, or Guroo sahib takes form in 5 Gurmukhs (all 5 not 1 or 2 jee) etc

To the best of my knowledge, every Amrit Sanchar across all Jathas tell people the Gurmantar and Mool Mantar, (if it doesn't then I wouldn't know). 

26 minutes ago, AjaipalSingh said:

"Badal's Maryada" still prohibits 4 bujjar kurehat aswell jee; just because something is in another maryada doesn't make it wrong automatically. Try asking Guroo sahib directly, do Ardaas asking if panj pyaareh may only be made up of Singh's; there's your answer in the hukam! Bibiyan have administered Amrith before and there have been many cases in which the abhilakhees in such Amrith Sanchaars have grown up to be beloved Gurmukhs! 

Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself made Taksal and Nihangs, none of which promote Kaur Punj Pyare. But what people do in their own small communities, I wouldn't know what's going on, there are hundereds of Sevas women can do, (actually everything except Punj Pyare), just look on YouTube Sant Jarnail Singh Bhinderwale on Women in Sikhi. (I can not link the video).

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1 hour ago, AjaipalSingh said:

Kes keski is more a matter of opinion jee as there is plenty of evidence supporting both, the more the better right? :) however I do believe that a wearing a dastaar, in public at the very least, should be mandatory for all of us, especially as it's the main part of Sikhi Saroop!

this topic of why women cannot be in punj pyare has been discussed.  Every arrogant point you will bring up and have stated has been answered.  This topic took off recently as well and your arrogant points expressed by another did not pass the test of Gurmat.  Now on keski or kes being matter of opinion of which one is kakkar.  This is a complete lie.  Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji made it clear in his Bani Kesh is Kakkar.  There is no mention of keski being kakkar.  This poster is affiliated with the people who rub up on each other during kirtan programs....forward and backwards they rub each other screaming and hoalering male to male.  While rest of the sangat is disgusted. He pretends to be humble but give me couple of more post and watch how the mask falls off.  He will be cracked like a hollow nut in a old brittle man's hand.

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15 hours ago, AjaipalSingh said:

The true Sikh realises that there is no difference whatsoever between Gurmukh, Guroo and Akaal Purakh. The Gurmukh may have all of the power and shakti of Akaal purakh, yet they choose to remain inside of guroos hukam. This was the reason for Guroo Arjan Dev jee and Guroo Tegh Bahadur jee bearing all of the pain of their own shaheedian, rather than using karaamaat to save themselves!

The bold tells us how much you know.  The Gurus don't feel pain, so they don't need to bear anything.  The Hukam is who they are and they are the directors and followers.  You want to talk about Punj Pyare avastha.  One of the UK AKJ Singhs caught in a pornography video doing the deed with two transgenders!!!  Keep bumpin and grindin in Darbar Sahib on kirtan stages as you are howling and hollering....clearly you boys are fine with expressing Kaam for each other in front of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.  This suggests why you guys want women in Punj Pyare......losing members through homosexuality.  Wait a minute here is another story on an AKJ person.  http://sikhissues.blogspot.ca/  Hurry up the rat hole you crawled out of is almost shut.........oooo look your got nowhere to run now.  :rofl:rofl:rofl

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    • I think there are various different reasons for that. One being there are no consequences, which means no boundaries. Around 20 years ago people had to face consequences. With wanting to marry a non-Sikh, you were either disowned by your parents or you were forced to marry someone from a Sikh background. Now there are absolutely no consequences at all.   Much of it is to do with how the religions are practiced and preached. Muslims are constantly reminded of Hell, marrying non-Muslim means going to hell.  You see Sikhi isn't that different in that sense. Bani constantly reminds us of Narak and Dharam raj, and Guru Gobind Singh ji gave strict Hukkam of giving your daughters hand only to a Singh. But, the Sikhi which has been preached and practiced for long is a very wishy-washy Bollywood type of Sikhi.  Around 15 years ago, our community saw an explosion of love marriages, around this time very large numbers of Sikh kids started enrolling into further education, like uni etc   these things bring about cultural changes in immigrant communities, some positive, some negative.  With time, culture changes as well ..   In the old days after anand karaj the "reception party" was basically roti and then everyone went home. Some families used to have singers and dancers perform after the wedding in the house, men were allowed to sit and watch while women were strictly forbidden, so women would peak through the windows or from the roof tops. Years later it became acceptable for women to sit and watch the "entertainment". Eventually the entertainment became reception parties as we see in the west and people in Punjab started copying. Now people are having reception parties in nothing less than 4* venues, spending £100,000s,  we see brides openly drinking and getting drunk.  So you can see how culture changes ...  with this change peoples attitudes change.  Another interesting thing is here in the west the first South Asian community to push boundaries and make taboos acceptable are the Hindus!   then around 5 years later the Westernized, liberal kind of Sikhs copy the Hindus and then a few years later the rest of the community start following. Pakistanis normally catch up around 10 years later.  Its the order ... Homosexuality is now acceptable in the western Hindu community, so many gay Hindus are coming out and having gay mandir weddings and their families are supportive. I know a Gujju girl and her cousin is a lesbian and dating another Hindu lesbian, my friend sent me a photo of them! and both the families have accepted the couple. Currently the Sikh community, on this matter, is in the "debate phase"  give it another few years and it will be acceptable, and it will be the same Westernized, liberal, often successful and pagh wearing Sikhs that will be the first to make gay Sikh marriage acceptable, and then the rest of us will follow. Pakis will catch up around 10 years later.    Even in the paki community I've seen a lot of changes, some of the stuff that they do now wouldn't have been accepted 15 years ago or so. Apostasy among Muslims is on the rise, the women seem to be leading it!  
    • Parent 1. Obviously it depends on the content and the aim of the school. It would be good to have all aspects of Sikhi in one place which has authenticity. No too much pressure for them to learn and churn out material to sit exams. It would be more of quality rather than quantity . 2. Support level , to get a clear understanding what will be taught and the kids and parents expectations right from the beginning. 3. Yes Cost does matter. We have 100's of Gurudawara who should have a budget set aside to invest in the kids and our future generation. So ideas such as this can be researched and developed without thinking about funding. If the cost was reasonable I would pay plus as already mentioned if free its not taken seriously. 4. Self paced is good , but there needs to be a facility where questions can be answered. May be have one or 2 live sessions and the rest self paced.   Sangat 1. Yes there should be tiers , but I think most importantly the material should be authentic. As theres a lot of online material , which ones are good resources , average and bad . 2. May be set up some kind of certification structure for sikhi which over time is recognized and can be used by individuals to train/educate other members of the public. Like many certification courses , they cost but not too much ( starting form £10 plus) The task should be to get as many people doing the online courses as possible, then the price can be low and you will cover your costs. 3.It should be focused to all the public regardless of their background. Made available to businesses ,schools, colleges, universities as part of the establishments diversification program. You have organisations such as Basics of Sikhi , Rajoana TV , Sikh Network etc.. who are doing a brillant job of explaining about sikhi. Tap in to them , make it a collective journey as you may find , they may already have a structure , resources in place , they just need a proper online presence. Reach out to the Sangat who have gyan about Sikhi  via social media and Gurudawara , as there are many Scholars out their. Why is Basics of Sikhi successful , because they keep it simple , easy to understand and follow.  As a parent one of the biggest hurdles for kids is speaking punjabi. Having dialogue with their parents/grandparents . My younger one , hardly speaks punjabi , but what I have found is sikh stories helps a lot. May be have online live sessions where sangat speak punjabi , general punjabi so at least they can particpate in conversations with the elder generation.  
    • wjkk wjkf ji you are a daughter of Sri Guru Gobind singh ji. you are on a right track and doing good job please don't use the word Pappi for yourself! chardi kla!
    • Mediterranean or Greek Food - Veggie Gyros, Gemista, any food or snack with Hummus Italian - Pasta (non-egg), Italian authentic Thin crust pizza with olive oil and less cheese Mexican - Burritos South Indian - Iddli/Sambar. Dosa with their cocunut chutney  
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