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Would you call our moneh boys "sikhs" ?

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1 minute ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

What did I say @Singh1989

@sukhvirk1976 I commented to Akalifauj.

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43 minutes ago, Singh1989 said:

Poor answer in a debate, son. Explain to us difference between Sikh and Khalsa then.

Veeray a Sikh is anyone who adheres to the precepts of Guru Nanak Dev - oneness of god, equality of humankind, sewa, vand chakna and simran. 

Bhai Mardana, Baba Buddha and several other mahapurash were Sikh, but not Khalsa, as they had not taken Amrit, for reasons I don't have to explain to anybody except perhaps a drunk child. Nevertheless, they were Sikh and followed Sikhi. This definition of 'Sikh'  was very inclusive. It included men and women with kes and without it, people who identified as Hindus and Muslims - Bhai Mardana never stopped being a 'Muslim', his request to go on Hajj was exactly the thing which led to Guru Ji's Westward Udasi - but abandoned those parts of their old faiths which did not conform to the Sat Bacchan of Guru Nanak. This is what Sikhi is, and what a Sikh was, until very late on in the 19th century.

The Khalsa Panth was created to protect this Sikhi, and Sikhs, all those described above - Sufi disciples of the Gurus, the followers of ravidas and kabir, Nanakpanthi Sindhis and Punjabis. The Panth of Guru Nanak Dev was always vulnerable in India because it was small, and staunchly opposed to the ritualism/casteism/priesthood of the Brahmins and the fanaticism of the maulvis. The Hindu and Muslim elite decided it has to be crushed for this reason, which was why Guru Hargobind Sahib became miri piri da malak and first armed the Sikhs. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib fully realized this spirit of bir ras in creating the Khalsa Panth. The Khalsa was, first and foremost, an army. 

The Khalsa is a fortress, and Sikhi is the treasure hidden inside it. The warrior's life is not for everyone, because dharam is not the same for each person, but different according to the whims of Akaal Purakh. Some are warriors, some help in other ways. The Khalsa mans the walls of the fort, the Sikh does seva of the people inside. 

A Khalsa can be a Sikh and Khalsa at once. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Singh1989 said:

@sukhvirk1976 I commented to Akalifauj.

I know brother I just think to expect any kind of constructive dialogue is a bit of a ask when it comes to those amongst us who don't actually have any opinions of there own 

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4 hours ago, Balkaar said:

It isn't, but that's rarely the narrative put forward by parchariks, kathavachiks and camp sevadars. The much more common one runs along the lines of 'these Sikhs died rather than remove a single hair, what excuse does the mona have?". It's negative reinforcement. 

How we treat language matters, the phrasing of a sentence is often much more decisive in convincing someone of its correctness than the intellectual merit of its contents. 

This assumes that amritdharis, simply by being amritdharis, are honoring the meaning of Sikhi and showing allegiance. As well as being demonstrably wrong, this is a very toxic notion - the idea that somebody in a turban is immediately believed to possess virtue in greater measure than someone with cut hair, has certainly assisted snakes-in-turbans like the badals in their rise to power (because their turbans act as a kind of political smokescreen, something to impress the rural folk who are so easily awed by the sight of a white bearded man in a dastaar). These seemingly harmless ideas can have dire consequences. 

If we wish to judge someone's allegiance to Sikhi we ought to look at their actions, not their roop. 

 

I was judging  actions instead of gestures/words/bhes and I hold ALL sikhs to same criteria as partaking amrit like going through anand karaj , just the first step in  a life of consistent guru's sikh behaviour

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55 minutes ago, Balkaar said:

Veeray a Sikh is anyone who adheres to the precepts of Guru Nanak Dev - oneness of god, equality of humankind, sewa, vand chakna and simran. 

Bhai Mardana, Baba Buddha and several other mahapurash were Sikh, but not Khalsa, as they had not taken Amrit, for reasons I don't have to explain to anybody except perhaps a drunk child. Nevertheless, they were Sikh and followed Sikhi. This definition of 'Sikh'  was very inclusive. It included men and women with kes and without it, people who identified as Hindus and Muslims - Bhai Mardana never stopped being a 'Muslim', his request to go on Hajj was exactly the thing which led to Guru Ji's Westward Udasi - but abandoned those parts of their old faiths which did not conform to the Sat Bacchan of Guru Nanak. This is what Sikhi is, and what a Sikh was, until very late on in the 19th century.

The Khalsa Panth was created to protect this Sikhi, and Sikhs, all those described above - Sufi disciples of the Gurus, the followers of ravidas and kabir, Nanakpanthi Sindhis and Punjabis. The Panth of Guru Nanak Dev was always vulnerable in India because it was small, and staunchly opposed to the ritualism/casteism/priesthood of the Brahmins and the fanaticism of the maulvis. The Hindu and Muslim elite decided it has to be crushed for this reason, which was why Guru Hargobind Sahib became miri piri da malak and first armed the Sikhs. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib fully realized this spirit of bir ras in creating the Khalsa Panth. The Khalsa was, first and foremost, an army. 

The Khalsa is a fortress, and Sikhi is the treasure hidden inside it. The warrior's life is not for everyone, because dharam is not the same for each person, but different according to the whims of Akaal Purakh. Some are warriors, some help in other ways. The Khalsa mans the walls of the fort, the Sikh does seva of the people inside. 

A Khalsa can be a Sikh and Khalsa at once. 

 

 

err veer ji claiming Bhai Mardana wasn't moved to become a fully dedicated gursikh is to insult him and Guru Nanak Dev ji . Guru Sahib went to ALL religious centres , not because of his followers being halfway but because Illahi message had to be delivered.

Khalsa has it genesis in Guru Nanak Dev ji  no other place

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41 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

err veer ji claiming Bhai Mardana wasn't moved to become a fully dedicated gursikh is to insult him and Guru Nanak Dev ji . Guru Sahib went to ALL religious centres , not because of his followers being halfway but because Illahi message had to be delivered.

Khalsa has it genesis in Guru Nanak Dev ji  no other place

I believe the writer accepted and profesess that bhai mardana was a Sikh, just not khalsa just as 1-9 guru Ji's were not. And ggsji was not the first khalsa 

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1 hour ago, Singh1989 said:

What you showing your mommy? Not wise to show her how you talk to others behind a keyboard, son.

Can't even come up with a come back.  What are you going to do ponytail boy...go put your legs behind your head....that's all you guys are good for

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People that want to discuss honesty will not be treated as I am treating the troll, singh1989, dolly101 (better known as moni), Harsharan, and preet.  These posters have nothing but contempt in their heart toward the khalsa Panth.  They will support anything that will conflate and distort sikhi teachings.  Mods or admin will never do anything to these posters.  Harsharan got a member to a suicidal point in her life and he's still here posting after his post were reported.  How come these guys can post all day everyday?  They have no social life and don't do any paath. So let the drama continue.

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14 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

People that want to discuss honesty will not be treated as I am treating the troll, singh1989, dolly101 (better known as moni), Harsharan, and preet.  These posters have nothing but contempt in their heart toward the khalsa Panth.  They will support anything that will conflate and distort sikhi teachings.  Mods or admin will never do anything to these posters.  Harsharan got a member to a suicidal point in her life and he's still here posting after his post were reported.  How come these guys can post all day everyday?  They have no social life and don't do any paath. So let the drama continue.

So rather than talking you advocate hating. A neat little trick 

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8 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

I believe the writer accepted and profesess that bhai mardana was a Sikh, just not khalsa just as 1-9 guru Ji's were not. And ggsji was not the first khalsa 

try actually reading the definition of as given in Gurbani ... Khalsa concept is mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib ji, a person taking charan amrit would have been Khalsa of earlier Guru Sahiban stop with the anglo-abrahamic analysis of Sikhi and you will realise the deeper truth. 

The word "Khalsa" appears in the Guru Granth Sahib. It is mentioned in the bani of Bhagat Kabir thus:

ਪਰਿਓ ਕਾਲ੝ ਸਭੈ ਜਗ ਊਪਰ ਮਾਹਿ ਲਿਖੇ ਭ੝ਰਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ॥ ਕਹ੝ ਕਬੀਰ ਜਨ ਭਝ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਪ੝ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਿਹ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੪॥੩॥
Pari­o kĝl sabẖai jag ūpar mĝhi likẖė bẖaram gi­ĝnī. Kaho Kabīr jan bẖa­ė kẖĝlsė parėm bẖagaṯ jih jĝnī. ॥4॥5॥
Death has fallen on the whole world; the doubting religious scholars are also listed on the Register of Death. Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa - who know the Lord's loving devotional worship.॥4॥5॥
 
 
 

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8 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

I believe the writer accepted and profesess that bhai mardana was a Sikh, just not khalsa just as 1-9 guru Ji's were not. And ggsji was not the first khalsa 

how would Bhai Mardana ji have become a sikh of Guru ji? By taking charan amrit  and following rehit fully. What is today's equivalent ? Khande di pahul, today one becomes Khalsa by taking amrit  and therefore there were khalsa always, Guru Sahiban have called Khalsa Akal roop  i.e. immortal , outside time. To say  Guru Sahiban were not Khalsa I think you could not be more deluded. 

Taken from sikhi wiki to illustrate:

In the Sikh tradition, the term appears again in one of the hukamnamas (literally written order or epistle) of Guru Hargobind (1595-1644) where a sangat of the eastern region has been described as "Guru ka Khalsa" (Guru's own or Guru's special charge). It has also been employed in the same sense in one of the letters of Guru Tegh Bahadur (1621-75) addressed to the sangat of Patna.  

If you read Bhai Nand Lal's Tanakhnama you can see that Khalsa can exist prior to 1699 also:

 

Bhai Nand Lal, poet laureate of Guru Gobind Singh's royal court, writes the following about the true qualities of the Khalsa in his composition called the "Tankah Nama":

Khalsa so-i jo nindaa ti-aagay Khalsa so-i laray jo agay

Khalsa so-i jo panchaa ka maaray Khalsa so-i karna ko saraay

Khalsa is the one who does not slander others Khalsa is the one who fights in the front line

Khalsa is the one who conquors the 5 evils (lust, greed, anger, excessive attachment, excessive pride) Khalsa is the one who fulfills all duties


Khalsa so-i maan jo ti-aagay Khalsa so-i jo par istaree-aa ti-aagay Khalsa so-i par drisht ko ti-aagay

Khalsa so-i naam rat laagay

Khalsa is the one who renounces self-pride Khalsa is the one who remains faithful within marriage

Khalsa is the one who abandons sexual desire for others than the spouse Khalsa is the one who is blessed with God's Name


Khalsa so-i guru hit laavay Khalsa so-i saar mukh khaavay

Khalsa so-i nirdhaan ko paalay Khalsa so-i dusht kao gaalai

Khalsa is the one who loves Waheguru Khalsa is the one who fights bravely in battle

Khalsa is the one who helps the needy Khalsa is the one who overpowers the enemy


Khalsa so-i naam jap kaaray Khalsa so-i malaych paar charay

Khalsa so-i naam si-o joray Khalsa so-i bandan ko toray

Khalsa is the one who chants God's Name Khalsa is the one who rises above the evil ones

Khalsa is the one who is in tune with God's Name Khalsa is the one who breaks false rituals


Khalsa so-i jo charai tarang Khalsa so-i jo karay nit jang

Khalsa so-i shaastar ko dhaaray Khalsa so-i dushat kao maaray.

Khalsa is the one who becomes a crusader Khalsa is the one who fights the war daily against internal and external enemies

Khalsa is the one who is always ready with weapons Khalsa is the one who destroys all evil.

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31 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

try actually reading the definition of as given in Gurbani ... Khalsa concept is mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib ji, a person taking charan amrit would have been Khalsa of earlier Guru Sahiban stop with the anglo-abrahamic analysis of Sikhi and you will realise the deeper truth. 

The word "Khalsa" appears in the Guru Granth Sahib. It is mentioned in the bani of Bhagat Kabir thus:

ਕਹ੝ ਕਬੀਰ ਜਨ ਭਝ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਪ੝ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਿਹ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੪॥੩॥
Kaho Kabīr jan bẖa­ė kẖĝlsė parėm bẖagaṯ jih jĝnī. ॥4॥3॥
Says Kabeer, those humble people become pure - they become Khalsa
- who know the Lord's loving devotional worship.॥4॥3॥
 
 

Could you please provide the full reference where it is aligned to Charan amrit? I appreciate the word itself may have been used 

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10 minutes ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

Could you please provide the full reference where it is aligned to Charan amrit? I appreciate the word itself may have been used 

you wanted to know about Khalsa in Guru Granth Sahib ji , since you were so dismissive of khalsa prior to 1699

 

 

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