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Someone has started a petition for Allowing Sikh Women to Administer Amrit Sanchar


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2 hours ago, JotSinghUK said:

Wow this thread seems to have derailed init? 

You know the Gurus all taught that all humans should be treated equally and it's in Gurbani right? It says one should be judged only by his/ her own actions (something in ones control) and not by what body or gender we happen to have been lucky (or unlucky) enough to be born in (something out of ones control).

Also it should be pointed out that a petition is not necessary as it's already in Rehet Maryada that it can be either. If some of you are so caught up on following exactly the original why stop at gender? What about same eye colour, same height etc? And in that case a woman should always be the only one allowed to add the patashas? But reality is that these same and loudest nay Sayers don't see a problem having a man add them? Anyway either can be done by either as long as they have high avastha and strict Rehet. 

But I posted in other forum as a guest you know that entire city of Lucknow all Gurdwaras have agreed to uphold Rehet Maryada and several Gurdwaras have now had female Panj Pyaras and this was not opposed (loudly anyway) and mostly welcomed. It's a good start! The news was from April. 

https://www.google.co.in/amp/m.timesofindia.com/city/lucknow/gender-bender-women-panj-pyara-at-sadar-gurdwara/amp_articleshow/58231304.cms

 

 

 

Same old argument that has been proven to be wrong.  I asked for an new argument based on Gurmat.  Again, take your time and ask your seniors to help you with it.  

The Khalsa Panth is not a popularity contest.  Yet this how so many of you view it.  Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji never followed the world.  Today the Sunday Sikhs are trying to change sikhi as the world changes.  This is how desperate these guys are to fit in.  Always feeling second class.  Never confident in their skin.  Always trying to show the western world how they are trying to be like them.  They get a tan and these type are trying to cover it up.  Gurbani makes a perso Grounded in Gurmat.  Never scared to be a Sikh.  Never acting a fool to fit in.  Never bending over backwards to please the western world.  

Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji took the world out of darkness.  Darkness took the form of higher and lower class when he came in human form.  Today the world is in darkness but not because of the caste system.  Today darkness has taken the form of liberal extremist.  They have no clue what is Gurmat and they have completely erased the line between right and wrong.  Gurbani is only their in English translations for them to beat their own chest.  There is some sun out but these liberal extremist will due away with it.  Full darkness will fall again but this time because of the liberal extremist.  Again Vaheguru will send his fauj to eliminate the liberal extremist.  It was ego when the caste system was created and its still ego destroying the world because of these liberal extremist.  Let the cycle continue.

Regarding your link.  The Guru says teach, explain, and show the way to Gurmat.  However don't become so nice that the Gurmat bankrupt people start oppressing you.  When this happens there is only one way to defend the saints.  

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4 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Same old argument that has been proven to be wrong.  I asked for an new argument based on Gurmat.  Again, take your time and ask your seniors to help you with it.  

The Khalsa Panth is not a popularity contest.  Yet this how so many of you view it.  Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji never followed the world.  Today the Sunday Sikhs are trying to change sikhi as the world changes.  This is how desperate these guys are to fit in.  Always feeling second class.  Never confident in their skin.  Always trying to show the western world how they are trying to be like them.  They get a tan and these type are trying to cover it up.  Gurbani makes a perso Grounded in Gurmat.  Never scared to be a Sikh.  Never acting a fool to fit in.  Never bending over backwards to please the western world.  

Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji took the world out of darkness.  Darkness took the form of higher and lower class when he came in human form.  Today the world is in darkness but not because of the caste system.  Today darkness has taken the form of liberal extremist.  They have no clue what is Gurmat and they have completely erased the line between right and wrong.  Gurbani is only their in English translations for them to beat their own chest.  There is some sun out but these liberal extremist will due away with it.  Full darkness will fall again but this time because of the liberal extremist.  Again Vaheguru will send his fauj to eliminate the liberal extremist.  It was ego when the caste system was created and its still ego destroying the world because of these liberal extremist.  Let the cycle continue.

Regarding your link.  The Guru says teach, explain, and show the way to Gurmat.  However don't become so nice that the Gurmat bankrupt people start oppressing you.  When this happens there is only one way to defend the saints.  

Liberal extremism is only bad when pandering to everyone to fit in western society (or any group including Hindus, Muslims etc) however women have been given equality by our Gurus so there is no pandering there. If you think so please show me one Gurbani tuk which says women should have a secondary role or lesser place in Sikhi. Because I have never found one. And though not explicit with gender I have found many tuks stating that as Gurmukhs we are to see everyone equally. Though to be fair it does say also that those who can do so are altars indeed and this is a great example. Just because we are stronger physically we think we are superior and should have more privilege over them when Gurbani does not support this. Despite our physical bodies, Gurbani says that we are judged on our actions alone. Therefore a woman of high avastha should be judged on that and not her gender which she had no control over.  

On grand scheme of things, everything is one. There is no duality. Akal Purakh IS everything and everyone. Our separate consciousness is an illusion created by this duality. In fact even our bodies are illusion. The Gurus knew this. If we continue to perpetuate the illusion by privileging some and limiting others on things which are out of their control like their gender which is only for procreation, then we only serve to solidify the illusion caused by duality. If we instead realize that every soul literally is Waheguru then it's not so hard to see how can you limit anyone based on caste colour gender or anything else. You are essentially delving further into duality by telling someone no they can't do something no matter how high their spiritual level is. In reality you are hurting yourself more than them.

A brahamgiani their main realization is seeing past this illusion and seeing all as one. When we surpass duality then we begin to realize the divine in our own self. 

Im not saying anything should be changed, rather I am saying Sikhi always considered all humans equally. What some Sikhs have done or thought (yes even Sants) will be based on what they were taught from whatever samprada they originated. We already have several sampradas disagreeing on several different issues and claiming they were originated directly from Guru Ji so how can this be? The answer is human thought, locked and isolated in this physical reality and separated from the true ONEness of all. The reason I say even Sants is not to cause disrespect at all. A sant is someone who follows exactly religious life and has high knowledge but that knowledge will be based on the path they took to reach that level, which we know there are several different ways. But a Sant is not necessarily a Brahamgiani (they could be) but the two are mutually exclusive. 

In Gurbani there is a tuk which says when one realizes within that HE IS ME and realizes their own self, then what more is there to be done? When someone realizes that he IS me (The divine within) then they realize that everyone else is also that same divine jyot. That includes women.

So no I am not pandering to anyone and I don't have a problem with women doing seva as Panj Pyaras because I try to see past the body and see the light within. I'm trying to see past duality which I think is our whole point of existence. 

Please forgive me sangat Ji if I have said anything wrong. 

 

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2 hours ago, JotSinghUK said:

Liberal extremism is only bad when pandering to everyone to fit in western society (or any group including Hindus, Muslims etc) however women have been given equality by our Gurus so there is no pandering there. If you think so please show me one Gurbani tuk which says women should have a secondary role or lesser place in Sikhi. Because I have never found one. And though not explicit with gender I have found many tuks stating that as Gurmukhs we are to see everyone equally. Though to be fair it does say also that those who can do so are altars indeed and this is a great example. Just because we are stronger physically we think we are superior and should have more privilege over them when Gurbani does not support this. Despite our physical bodies, Gurbani says that we are judged on our actions alone. Therefore a woman of high avastha should be judged on that and not her gender which she had no control over.  

On grand scheme of things, everything is one. There is no duality. Akal Purakh IS everything and everyone. Our separate consciousness is an illusion created by this duality. In fact even our bodies are illusion. The Gurus knew this. If we continue to perpetuate the illusion by privileging some and limiting others on things which are out of their control like their gender which is only for procreation, then we only serve to solidify the illusion caused by duality. If we instead realize that every soul literally is Waheguru then it's not so hard to see how can you limit anyone based on caste colour gender or anything else. You are essentially delving further into duality by telling someone no they can't do something no matter how high their spiritual level is. In reality you are hurting yourself more than them.

A brahamgiani their main realization is seeing past this illusion and seeing all as one. When we surpass duality then we begin to realize the divine in our own self. 

Im not saying anything should be changed, rather I am saying Sikhi always considered all humans equally. What some Sikhs have done or thought (yes even Sants) will be based on what they were taught from whatever samprada they originated. We already have several sampradas disagreeing on several different issues and claiming they were originated directly from Guru Ji so how can this be? The answer is human thought, locked and isolated in this physical reality and separated from the true ONEness of all. The reason I say even Sants is not to cause disrespect at all. A sant is someone who follows exactly religious life and has high knowledge but that knowledge will be based on the path they took to reach that level, which we know there are several different ways. But a Sant is not necessarily a Brahamgiani (they could be) but the two are mutually exclusive. 

In Gurbani there is a tuk which says when one realizes within that HE IS ME and realizes their own self, then what more is there to be done? When someone realizes that he IS me (The divine within) then they realize that everyone else is also that same divine jyot. That includes women.

So no I am not pandering to anyone and I don't have a problem with women doing seva as Panj Pyaras because I try to see past the body and see the light within. I'm trying to see past duality which I think is our whole point of existence. 

Please forgive me sangat Ji if I have said anything wrong. 

 

Can you tell me why all 10 Gurus were men?

Why all 15 Bhagats with Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib are all men?

Why all 5 of the Panj Pyare were men?

You deluded fools seem to think that our rehat comes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but it doesn't.... SGGS is a spiritual guide for the whole universe.... the khalsa's maryada is something different entirely.

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25 minutes ago, Mahakaal96 said:

Can you tell me why all 10 Gurus were men?

Why all 15 Bhagats with Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib are all men?

Why all 5 of the Panj Pyare were men?

You deluded fools seem to think that our rehat comes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but it doesn't.... SGGS is a spiritual guide for the whole universe.... the khalsa's maryada is something different entirely.

It doesn't matter that they were in male bodies. The awareness behind every human is not the body or the gender of the body. It's pure jyot genderless. In that cultural time in India you hardly saw women even in public gathering at all (even today you hardly see women at public gatherings). In that time, a female form as Guru would not have been listened to (and possibly not even now as some of you still harbour this same resentment deep inside). It's same question as why the Gurus were all high caste. The message of equality can not come from those in the lower position (at least not without a lot of blood). Slave masters claiming that slavery was wrong meant so much more than slaves claiming the same. It was same for women. In that time women were little more than property, the Gurus in male form claiming all humans were equal meant way more than if a female was Guru claiming the same. As for Panj Pyaras hardly any women being at public gatherings back then how many women do you think were actually present? And what about all the males who did not give their heads they get to ride on coat tails of the first five simply because they have the same genitalia? If physical form is that important to copy then again I ask why not also copy their eye colour, skin colour etc? But I am betting you don't have any issues with a white Singh doing this seva am I right? So why only the gender? I bet you also don't see a problem with males putting the patashas in the Amrit and if everything must be copied as original why does that not bother you when this should always be female then? Why doesn't a Singhni always be present with Panj Pyaras at Nagar kirtans accompanying Guru Granth Sahib Ji? It is because we seem to get all defensive when we feel a lowly woman is encroaching on something we feel entitled to. But when it's something they should have special we don't care. All this is moot. Can you not see past the cultural necessity of the time where women were very much marginalized and would not be listened to? 

Anyway this is my own thoughts and if you disagree that's ok but I still feel it's yourself your are ultimately hurting because you are so trapped in duality you can't possibly think that the conscious awareness behind the body of all humans is one and the same. By refusing to try to see it you are only hurting your own progression. By the way Rehet Maryada is whatever Panj Pyaras give to you. Panth and they have full power of decision making. Rehet Maryada can change over time, Gurbani can't. It's timeless. 

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On 21/07/2017 at 8:26 PM, Akalifauj said:

The bana was introduced before any Sikh was given a shastar.  Your mommy is probably calling you to go drink milk...go run along little boy.

Well the 1st 5 Gurus also had the tradition of charan-amrit.

 

If you want charan-amrit then that is fine.

 

But please don't insult those who follow all 10 Gurus instead of first 5. Guru Gobind Singh has made it mandatory to practise shastar as well as nitnem. If you prefer pakhandis that dress up then that is up-to-you.

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18 hours ago, JotSinghUK said:

Liberal extremism is only bad when pandering to everyone to fit in western society (or any group including Hindus, Muslims etc) however women have been given equality by our Gurus so there is no pandering there. If you think so please show me one Gurbani tuk which says women should have a secondary role or lesser place in Sikhi. Because I have never found one. And though not explicit with gender I have found many tuks stating that as Gurmukhs we are to see everyone equally. Though to be fair it does say also that those who can do so are altars indeed and this is a great example. Just because we are stronger physically we think we are superior and should have more privilege over them when Gurbani does not support this. Despite our physical bodies, Gurbani says that we are judged on our actions alone. Therefore a woman of high avastha should be judged on that and not her gender which she had no control over.  

On grand scheme of things, everything is one. There is no duality. Akal Purakh IS everything and everyone. Our separate consciousness is an illusion created by this duality. In fact even our bodies are illusion. The Gurus knew this. If we continue to perpetuate the illusion by privileging some and limiting others on things which are out of their control like their gender which is only for procreation, then we only serve to solidify the illusion caused by duality. If we instead realize that every soul literally is Waheguru then it's not so hard to see how can you limit anyone based on caste colour gender or anything else. You are essentially delving further into duality by telling someone no they can't do something no matter how high their spiritual level is. In reality you are hurting yourself more than them.

A brahamgiani their main realization is seeing past this illusion and seeing all as one. When we surpass duality then we begin to realize the divine in our own self. 

Im not saying anything should be changed, rather I am saying Sikhi always considered all humans equally. What some Sikhs have done or thought (yes even Sants) will be based on what they were taught from whatever samprada they originated. We already have several sampradas disagreeing on several different issues and claiming they were originated directly from Guru Ji so how can this be? The answer is human thought, locked and isolated in this physical reality and separated from the true ONEness of all. The reason I say even Sants is not to cause disrespect at all. A sant is someone who follows exactly religious life and has high knowledge but that knowledge will be based on the path they took to reach that level, which we know there are several different ways. But a Sant is not necessarily a Brahamgiani (they could be) but the two are mutually exclusive. 

In Gurbani there is a tuk which says when one realizes within that HE IS ME and realizes their own self, then what more is there to be done? When someone realizes that he IS me (The divine within) then they realize that everyone else is also that same divine jyot. That includes women.

So no I am not pandering to anyone and I don't have a problem with women doing seva as Panj Pyaras because I try to see past the body and see the light within. I'm trying to see past duality which I think is our whole point of existence. 

Please forgive me sangat Ji if I have said anything wrong. 

 

You provide nothing new to the discussion for adding women to punj pyare.  All these arguments have been proven wrong.  Read the previous threads.  Equality has nothing to do with this discussion.  Singhs with missing limbs can't be part of punj pyare regardless if they are Brahmgiani or Gurmukh.  You or anyone else is not the special chosen one to go against Gurmat of ONLY Singhs in Punj pyare without missing limbs.  Japji sahib says sing Gurbani while listening and then accept his hukam. You see past the body but Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji who gave Amrit enforced gender differences by giving men amritdharis the last name Singh and women amritdharis the last name Kaur.  You must be holier.  Sant Baba Isher Singh ji was asked why can't we eat meat, when meat and vegetarian food are both made of the 5 elements.  Sant ji responded by asking the man if he has a sister, wife and mother?  He said yes to all.  Sant ji says they are made of the same 5 elements each, so why do you have different relationships with each of them?  If its about jeevan marry your sister, call your daughter mother and your mother will be your daughter.  This is not an attack on you but a general question that brings to light the fallacy that exist in your argument.

Again, do some soul searching with Gurbani and your mind will have some peace of mind.

  

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5 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

You provide nothing new to the discussion for adding women to punj pyare.  All these arguments have been proven wrong.  Read the previous threads.  Equality has nothing to do with this discussion.  Singhs with missing limbs can't be part of punj pyare regardless if they are Brahmgiani or Gurmukh.  You or anyone else is not the special chosen one to go against Gurmat of ONLY Singhs in Punj pyare without missing limbs.  Japji sahib says sing Gurbani while listening and then accept his hukam. You see past the body but Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji who gave Amrit enforced gender differences by giving men amritdharis the last name Singh and women amritdharis the last name Kaur.  You must be holier.  Sant Baba Isher Singh ji was asked why can't we eat meat, when meat and vegetarian food are both made of the 5 elements.  Sant ji responded by asking the man if he has a sister, wife and mother?  He said yes to all.  Sant ji says they are made of the same 5 elements each, so why do you have different relationships with each of them?  If its about jeevan marry your sister, call your daughter mother and your mother will be your daughter.  This is not an attack on you but a general question that brings to light the fallacy that exist in your argument.

Again, do some soul searching with Gurbani and your mind will have some peace of mind.

  

Ahh but bro there is a reason why one needs limbs. You can't physically prepare Amrit without the correct body parts. So that makes sense. But women do have all the correct body parts. And my argument has nothing to do with differences in physical bodies anyway. 

My argument is based on two things:

That Guru Ji has never explicitly disallowed women. Nowhere in any written document does it explicitly say "women are not allowed" it's been taken for granted that the word Singh suggests it, however Gurbani itself uses the word Singh to speak of the lion species male and female both. The word man is used for all of mankind. There is also no historical evidence to show that women were never part of it before. Remember just because there is no written accounts we can find, doesn't mean it didn't happen. And why does a different last name have to mean that Guru Gobind Singh Ji intended to keep women 'in their place' so to speak? I always thought the reason for Kaur was that we have gender neutral first names and also that women instead of having to take husbands identity on marriage would always keep her own identity. It was supposed to be liberation for women not just a different set of chains for them. 

Secondly Guru Ji gave full rights to the panth to make decisions. This is the major important point. He would never have given full rights to the panth to make decisions, and then when a decision is made which was based on Gurbani's message of equality (Gurbani is our living Guru and primary source of morality) agreeing that Kaur's should not be marginalized or treated as lesser in Sikhi, and then be angered that same decision was made. A decision he gave the power to the panth to make. 

Again the correct Rehet Maryada is the one given to you by Panj Pyaras and if they specifically say women can equally do all seva as males (and this has been verbally stated at Amrit sanchars even here in the U.K.) then who can argue with this Guru given authority? Isn't Guru Gobind Singh Ji supposed to himself be there in person when five Sikhs come together?? Who are you to disagree with them? Have you stood in their place as one of the five during an Amrit sanchar and felt his presence yourself? 

Also, you are using what was a very pertinent social reality of that time which meant that women were very much in a degraded position in society as someone aptly put it a few posts back, as "broodmares" which parents desired to marry off as early as possible, to be then controlled by a husband (never having any real authority over their own life and fearing being killed if they disobeyed - yes even by Sikh parents and this is an unfortunate reality and blemish on our culture even today) and you are trying to say that horrible social norm for that time and place is actually his hukam for all time, whilst completely ignoring the message in Gurbani which is beyond time and is for everyone and says all humans should be seen with a single eye of equality. You can't take an injustuce form our past, which happened to exist at the time of the Gurus (and explains why there were no female Gurus or female bhagats or even the first five Panj Pyaras) you can't use that injustice which was forced upon women of that time to justify more injustice for all time stating it is his 'hukam'. 

I am sorry you can't see past your prejudices but you won't change my thoughts bro. Doesn't change that we are all in this path together and we should respect one another. 

 

 

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On 21/07/2017 at 11:33 PM, Mahakaal96 said:

The bana was introduced during the time of 10ve patshah... shasters were introduced during the time of 6ve patshah.... the Akal Sena was the fauj of 6ve patshah. 6ve patshah gave a blessing to Baba Budha Ji that one day the Akal Sena would march under their name.... they became Budha Dal.

A real 'Akali' would know the history of the Akalis.... wannabe akalis like you can only come on forums and give it large.... having the username 'akalifauj' won't stop the fact that you probably get bullied, look like tutti, have a small manhood & are most probably a closet homosexual with latent homosexual desires.

really I suppose your own words were in the spirit of 6th Patshah? both of you guys need to cool down 

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