Did any of the Guru's marry outside their caste?

[Guest Deepak]

On 8/1/2017 at 12:28 AM, Singh123456777 said:

Damn son you just went crazy!!! A+ post

Gujjar does not belong only to muslim read about gujjar prathihar dynasty gujjar have ruled all over india and are found in every part of india delhi punjn up rajasthan gujarat maharastra etc.

gujrat name is kept because gujjar used to rule here n rajputana was earlier known as gujrastra 

N theres a saying in rajastan only a gujri (by caste) can give a birth to lion. You can ask from any other caste

[Guest guest]

from what I understand, all Gurus married within their caste.

[Guest Jagsaw_Singh]

BhForce said :

Quote

 

The Gujjars are a nomadic Muslim tribe that keeps cattle

 

And where does that leave all the Sikh Gujjars and Hindu Gujjars ?

[Guest Jagsaw_Singh]

Guest Deepak said:

Quote

gujrat name is kept because gujjar used to rule here n rajputana was earlier known as gujrastra 

The Indian state of Gujarat got it's name many centuries after the Punjabi province of Gujrat. But you're half right because it was the Punjabi Gujjars who went down and settled in western India and formed Gujarat. That is why the 'high-caste' Gujaratis (lohanas etc) have identical features to Punjabis and it is almost impossible to tell them apart.

[Guest Hun Gurjar]

On 7/31/2017 at 7:24 PM, BhForce said:

Where did you read Mata Gujri ji was a Gujjar? I would really like to know what source someone was using to say that, other than pulling it out of where the sun don't shine. If you don't post a source, all can safely assume that is just pure concocted fantasy.

All of our Gurus were married in their own social group, the Khatris.

The Gujjars are the kshatriyas before Rajput. On their name many states and cities are named like Gujarat, Gujaranwala in pakistan, rawalpindi, etc. Gujjars are found in india, pakistan, afghanistan, geogia, iran, etc. Gujjar are those who fought bravely in ancient times against enemies. Later, Rajputs are originated from gujjars. For more information check wikipedia.

Here's the entry in Mahan Kosh for Mata Gujri ji:

ਗੁਜਰੀ ਮਾਤਾ 

ਕਰਤਾਰਪੁਰ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ਲਾਲਚੰਦ ਸੁਭਿਖੀਏ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਦੀ, ਮਾਤਾ ਬਿਸਨਕੌਰ ਦੇ ਉਦਰ ਤੋਂ ਉਪਜੀ ਬੇਟੀ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਵਿਆਹ ੧੫. ਅੱਸੂ ਸੰਮਤ ੧੬੮੬ ਨੂੰ ਕਰਤਾਰਪੁਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦੁਰ ਜੀ ਨਾਲ ਹੋਇਆ, 

 

Mata Gujri ji's father was Lal Chand of Kartarpur, and mother was Bisan Kaur. Does that sound like Muslim names? Assuming Lal Chand and his family were Gujjars, do you think that Guru Hargobind Ji could find no other marriage match than a bunch of wandering Muslim cattle-herders? Lal Chand and family resided at Kartarpur, having formerly resided at Lakhnaur. Resided, not wandering around.

 

Also, assuming Lal Chand ji's family were Gujjars, I think you know very well that if Muslims want to marry their daughter to somebody non-Muslim, they insist on the groom getting circumsized and initiated into Islam, if only as a formality.

 

So do you think that our Satguru, Guru Teg Bahadur ji, was a Muslim and had accepted that Mohammed was the Prophet of God? If so, what was the point of Emperor Aurangzeb beheading Guru Sahib? Guru ji was already a Muslim!

 

Finally, how many families name their daughter after their caste? As was pointed out on this discussion board, would "Mata Jatti" or "Mata Chamari" make any sense? "Mata Tarkhani", "Mata Julahan"? I think you should look for the meaning of Gujri elsewhere, not in Gujjar, my friend.

 

[Guest Singh Sheer]

Yes and there's nothing controversial about it.

Being caste neutral in religion is not the same as the Catholic Church in early middle ages which FORCED people to marry outside their caste (Europe had a similar system, especially among Germanic tribes)

Too many Sikh want to be amicable to the modern day Liberal Democratic system while also being Sikh.

 

One wonders if these people would have supported the 'progressive' British or their own Maharaaj during the Anglo Sikh war.

 

Sat Sri Akaall

[Guest Sikhi opposes caste!]

Where did you read Mata Gujri ji was a Gujjar?

Sant Ji has done many katha re Mata Gujjar Kaur.

Gujjar is an ethnic tribe. It would hardly make sense for someone non-Zulu to be called Mata Zulu Kaur (presuming your familiarity with the Zulu tribe of South Africa).

http://www.boloji.co...&ArticleID=4084

"As late as 1757, Ahmed Shah Abdali carried out a massacre of Hindu Jats and Hindu Gujjars while invading Mathura, Vrindavan and Gokul during Holi.

But many Gujjars had always chosen death to Islam. The most revered instance is that of Mata Gujjar Kaur ' the mother of Guru Gobind Singh ' who along with her two grandsons Baba Zorawar Singh and Baba Fateh Singh chose to be bricked alive in a wall by Aurengzeb's henchman rather than reciting Kalima".

This is a piece written by author Dr Priyadarshi Dutta.

https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/18078/IN

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/who-are-the-gujjars/story-cHGOp2jkDxjWspEpXZuBAM.html

All of our Gurus were married in their own social group

Nonsense, that has historically only been asserted by Muslims, Hindu's and British enemies of the Sikh Panth. Sikhs should not fall prey to the same anti-Sikh rhetoric designed to perpetuate the caste system amongst Sikhs.

The Gujjars are a nomadic Muslim tribe that keeps cattle.

Would you please tell that to the crores of Hindu Gujjars in Rajasthan, Haryana, Delhi, UP and Gujarat who have achieved scheduled tribe status for millions of Hindu Gujjars.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/obc-benefits-to-be-restored-to-gujjars-in-rajasthan/article18185814.ece

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajesh_Pilot

So Sachin Pilot, Rajesh Pilot and the various Hindu Gujjar MP's are somehow Muslims in your perception because Gujjars happen to be a large landowning tribe in Pakistan?

Are you aware that many sources ascribe Gujjar ancestry to Baba Banda Singh Bahadur? Are you aware of the Gujjar ancestry of Sikh war hero Kuldip Singh Chandpuri? Heard of the famous Gujjar Sikh village of Chabrewal by any chance?

http://greatindianheroes.com/bravery/major-kuldip-singh-chandpuri/

Amritdhari Residents of the Chabrewal Village

Rupnagar, Nurpur Bedi (KP) -  Recently, a local Punjabi newspaper published an inspiring article about a particular Punjab village in the foothills of the Shivaliks that has rapidly accepted the Sikhi way of live, en masse - a trend that is opposite of what is happening in rest of Punjab.  Perhaps this unique village can inspire others across Punjab to return to their Sikhi roots.

Village Chabrewal is a small village in Nurper Bedi situated in the hills of Shivalik.  Because of its small size, this village goes unnoticed by the rest of the world and it enjoys a simple lifestyle--remaining aloof from worldly facilities and luxuries.  During one time, this village, which is mostly populated with the people of the Gujjar clan, was known for its people’s smoking and drinking habits--but now, it has been completely transformed by conversions of people who have chosen to adopt the Sikh faith.  Amritdhari men and women can be spotted easily upon entering the village.

The population of this village remains scarce, at about 250, but Mela Ram has now become Mela Singh, Jog Raj has now become Jog Raj Singh and Dolat Ram has now become Dolat Singh.  At least one member of every family has taken up the Sikh way of life by adopting the path shown by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

According to Jog Raj Singh, the Chief of this Village, Sikh influence was brought here by a person named Mela Ram.  Mela Ram, Son of Babu Ram, was the first person to be baptized into the Khalsa Panth. Afterwards, he inspired many others as well.  Not only have the ordinary villagers taken up the Sikh way of life, many of the village’s amritdharis are eminent public figures.

Prof. Jaswinder Singh who teaches religious studies at the Kalgidhar Kanea School Kahnpur Khuhi said that Baba Dalip Singh Samirowal and Baba Gurcharan Singh, who performed seva of a historical shrine relating to the life of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, played a big role in nurturing Sikhi in this village.   In addition, Sikh Missionary College (Anandpur Sahib), Baba Channan Singh Suara and Principal Prem Singh Heerpur have continued to hold Gurmat related classes for the people which have helped many people.  Jaswinder Singh said that 1999 was a crucial year for the village as during this year, a large number of people became attached to bani and bana.

This area of the Shivalik Hills has been blessed with ‘charan-choh’ (presence and touch of the Holy Lotus feet) of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.  At Gurdwara Kataar Sahib, Guru Gobind Singh Ji blessed the father of Baba Sangat Singh Ji with a kataar.  Seva of this Gurdwara Sahib was organized by Baba Labh Singh Ji who handed the control of this shrine to the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee.  Sikh Sangat visits this historical shrine in big numbers during the annual nangar kirtan and on special monthly programs.

(Original story appeared in the Punjabi version of Ajit)

Mata Gujri ji's father was (Gujjar) Lal Chand of Kartarpur, and mother was Bisan Kaur.

Yes they were Gujjars. Most Indian Gujjars to this day have the middle name Singh.

Does that sound like Muslim names?

All Gujjars were originally Hindu. Nowadays they are Hindu, Muslim and Sikh. Lal Chand and Bishan Kaur were of Gujjar ancestry as indeed were Mata Gujjar Kaur and of course Dasam Pita by extension. What is your problem with that? Why are you so keen to falsely classify (as the RSS wish) our Guru's as being from or marrying into one caste?

Assuming Lal Chand and his family were Gujjars, do you think that Guru Hargobind Ji could find no other marriage match than a bunch of wandering cattle-herders?

What a pathetic and casteist point of view which in no way refutes the truth of Mata Gujjar Kaur's Gujjar ancestry. Mata Gujjar Kaur for myself and all Sikh Sangat than whichever caste you ascribe higher status to.

Lal Chand and family resided at Kartarpur, having formerly resided at Lakhnaur. Resided, not wandering around.

If you seriously think all the tens of millions from the Gujjar tribe in India and Pakistan are all nomads, then you are very mistaken. It is akin to claiming all Irish people are travellers because a minority of them may happen to be.

Also, assuming Lal Chand ji's family were Gujjars, I think you know very well that if Muslims want to marry their daughter to somebody non-Muslim, they insist on the groom getting circumsized and initiated into Islam, if only as a formality.

 

Why do you assume that Lal Chand and Bishan Kaur are Gujjars of Muslim ancestry? Do you believe that Gujjars cannot have faith in Sikhi? If most Gujjars globally are non-Muslim your whole premise falls flat on its head. There are many thousand of Sikhs of Gujjar ancestry - the most famous of which being Mata Gujjar Kaur Ji.

 

So do you think that our Satguru, Guru Teg Bahadur ji, was a Muslim and had accepted that Mohammed was the Prophet of God?

 

No Guru Sahib rejected the peadophile slave trader known as Muhammad but your whole assertion that Lal Chand and Bishan Kaur were Muslims is highly laughable. They were of Gujjar ancestry yes but no they were not Muslim. If most Jatts are Muslims it does not follow that a small minority of those with Jatt ancestry may have chosen Sikhi. Similarly, if most Punjabi Khatri's are Pakistani Muslim Sheikhs it does not mean that some Sikhs cannot be of Khatri ancestry.

 

If so, what was the point of Emperor Aurangzeb beheading Guru Sahib? Guru ji was already a Muslim!

 

Again, this ties in with the lie asserted by Muslims, Hindu's and British enemies of Sikhi. That may be your belief - keep it to yourself!

 

Finally, how many families name their daughter after their caste?

 

Conversely, why would a specific tribal name be ascribed to Mata Gujjar Kaur, were it not for the fact that Mata Gujjar Kaur's ancestry was indeed Gujjar.

 

PLUS ONE THOUSAND!!!!!

[Guest Shubh Chaudhary]

On 7/31/2017 at 9:54 AM, BhForce said:

Where did you read Mata Gujri ji was a Gujjar? I would really like to know what source someone was using to say that, other than pulling it out of where the sun don't shine. If you don't post a source, all can safely assume that is just pure concocted fantasy.

All of our Gurus were married in their own social group, the Khatris.

The Gujjars are a nomadic Muslim tribe that keeps cattle.

Here's the entry in Mahan Kosh for Mata Gujri ji:

ਗੁਜਰੀ ਮਾਤਾ 

ਕਰਤਾਰਪੁਰ ਨਿਵਾਸੀ ਲਾਲਚੰਦ ਸੁਭਿਖੀਏ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਦੀ, ਮਾਤਾ ਬਿਸਨਕੌਰ ਦੇ ਉਦਰ ਤੋਂ ਉਪਜੀ ਬੇਟੀ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਵਿਆਹ ੧੫. ਅੱਸੂ ਸੰਮਤ ੧੬੮੬ ਨੂੰ ਕਰਤਾਰਪੁਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦੁਰ ਜੀ ਨਾਲ ਹੋਇਆ, 

 

Mata Gujri ji's father was Lal Chand of Kartarpur, and mother was Bisan Kaur. Does that sound like Muslim names? Assuming Lal Chand and his family were Gujjars, do you think that Guru Hargobind Ji could find no other marriage match than a bunch of wandering Muslim cattle-herders? Lal Chand and family resided at Kartarpur, having formerly resided at Lakhnaur. Resided, not wandering around.

 

Also, assuming Lal Chand ji's family were Gujjars, I think you know very well that if Muslims want to marry their daughter to somebody non-Muslim, they insist on the groom getting circumsized and initiated into Islam, if only as a formality.

 

So do you think that our Satguru, Guru Teg Bahadur ji, was a Muslim and had accepted that Mohammed was the Prophet of God? If so, what was the point of Emperor Aurangzeb beheading Guru Sahib? Guru ji was already a Muslim!

 

Finally, how many families name their daughter after their caste? As was pointed out on this discussion board, would "Mata Jatti" or "Mata Chamari" make any sense? "Mata Tarkhani", "Mata Julahan"? I think you should look for the meaning of Gujri elsewhere, not in Gujjar, my friend.

So my friend,

Just to let you know that the muslim gujjars( presently in gujjranwala, Pakistan), who you state as *bunch of wandering Muslim cattle-herders* were not the only gujjars.

First of all research about Gurjara-Prathira dynasty and king Mihir Bhoj then you would understand why will guru marry a gujjar. In punjab before partition there were millions of hindu gujjars which you can see yourself in haryana till present day and see their lifestyle, unity and living ethics then you would understand how flourishing gujjars are.(use google or youtube for their population). And in present punjab just go visit Balachaur and you will get to know what gujjars are. And moreover if you want to know about gujjars, research about gujjar andolan. See how they are ruling rajasthan, western UP(saharanpur,gaziabad). Moreover Gujarat is named after gujjars. And if i will start naming some prominent gujjars the list will be long enough.

So before you talk about any caste just think twice. Maa gurjari G nu koti koti pranam.

waheguru G ka khalsa waheguru G ki fateh.