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Is it really Sikh, Sikhi, Sikhism vs Hindu, Hinduism and it's beliefs?


Guest Saddened Hindu
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4 hours ago, Guest Saddened Hindu said:

Thank you Harsharan000. Could you please guide me towards a reliable and true guide/translation relevant to your answer. I would really appreciate an insight into your approach.

Much regards

I am sorry, I do not exactly understand what you want from me.

Please be a bit more specific or clear.

Thanks.

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Guest Saddened Hindu

Moderator/Administrator, I am still waiting for the comment I made in answer to Jacfsing2 n dominator to be published here. 

Please advise if you felt any/some parts inappropriate for this forum.

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Guest Saddened Hindu
2 hours ago, harsharan000 said:

I am sorry, I do not exactly understand what you want from me.

Please be a bit more specific or clear.

Thanks.

Dear Harsharan000

What I meant was that your approach towards your belief seems earnest and your commentary on it is quite becoming to the essence of your belief. You appear to have understood the essence of Sikhee in it's completeness. So could you refer some reading material/translation which is unadulterated and unambiguous as I would like to gain a disposition such as yours.

Regards

 

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21 hours ago, Guest Saddened Hindu said:

My childhood Sikh friends have closed "Only Sikh" chat groups where they share Hindu jokes about coward Hindus,

1. First, welcome to Sikhsangat. Here's my humble approach to your question. Let me start off by apologizing for the Sikhs who made you feel bad. That's not a good thing to do:

ਸਭਨਾ ਮਨ ਮਾਣਿਕ ਠਾਹਣੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਮਚਾਂਗਵਾ ॥

Sabhanaa Man Maanik Thaahan Mool Machaangavaa ||

The minds of all are like precious jewels; to harm them is not good at all.

ਸਲੋਕ ਫਰੀਦ ਜੀ (ਭ. ਫਰੀਦ) (੧੩੦):੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੮੪ ਪੰ. ੧੮ 
Salok Baba Sheikh Farid p. 1384

ਜੇ ਤਉ ਪਿਰੀਆ ਦੀ ਸਿਕ ਹਿਆਉ ਨ ਠਾਹੇ ਕਹੀ ਦਾ ॥੧੩੦॥

Jae Tho Pireeaa Dhee Sik Hiaao N Thaahae Kehee Dhaa ||130||

If you desire your Beloved, then do not break anyone's heart. ||130||

ਸਲੋਕ ਫਰੀਦ ਜੀ (ਭ. ਫਰੀਦ) (੧੩੦):੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੮੪ ਪੰ. ੧੯ 
Salok Baba Sheikh Farid


2. OK, now since we've established that, I'd like to explore why some people might be ornery toward Hindus.

Imagine you're a person, a man, a human being. The leaders of a group of people, lets call them "Hindus", decide that you and your family and relatives are going to pick up their sh#t. Literally. (I don't swear, but I'm just using the word for illustration of the nastiness of the subject.) Or that you're going to be picking up the dead animals of the village, tanning them, and making leather goods of the hides. Nothing wrong with being a leatherworker, except when people call you names, cross the street when you pass, are literally afraid of your shadow (as in not wanting to be in your shadow because they think they'll get a disease from your shadow), don't allow you go into certain streets, throw you out of their religious places, and also don't allow you to choose a different profession if you want, don't allow you to read books of religion, and threaten to pour lead into your ears if you happen to hear religious verses. Do you comprehend the utter inhumanity of such a system, where people, with just a word, can cut your heart, and deny your essential worth? Do you think that at some point you would say, "F*** this sh#t; (literally)! And f*** all you all!"? I think that would be an entirely reasonable reaction. And yet you are surprised that people are making anti-Hindu jokes? 

Again, I'm not saying that people should make anti-Hindu jokes. I'm just saying it's quite understandable if people should do that. This would be similar to blacks in America making fun of white people, possibily with totally uncalled for jokes, like jokes on white men's masculinity, p*nis size, etc. The jokes are hurtful, but you do understand why they would want to denigrate a group that treated them like animals, right?

ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਹਮ ਕਤ ਸੂਦ ॥

Thum Kath Braahaman Ham Kath Soodh ||

How is it that you are a Brahmin, and I am of a low social status?

ਗਉੜੀ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) (੭) ੩:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੨੪ ਪੰ. ੧੮ 
Raag Gauri Bhagat Kabir

ਹਮ ਕਤ ਲੋਹੂ ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਦੂਧ ॥੩॥

Ham Kath Lohoo Thum Kath Dhoodhh ||3||

How is it that I am formed of blood, and you are made of milk? ||3||

ਗਉੜੀ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) (੭) ੩:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੨੪ ਪੰ. ੧੮ 
Raag Gauri Bhagat Kabir, p324

 

3. Let's take another aspect of this: You have people who are not themselves cr*p-lifters or tanners. They're just appalled by the sheer inhumanity of the "Hindu" system. (I put "Hindu" in quotes because I don't want to get sidetracked on the definition of Hindu.) For them, the scavengers and leatherworkers are not pariahs, the real pariahs are those who have made the scavengers and leatherworkers into pariahs. This would be similar to non-blacks in America considering the KKK (who believe blacks to be sub-human) to be pariahs and making fun of them. Everybody in America makes fun of or condemns the KKK, from comedian Stephen Colbert to the President of the United States, Donald Trump (both white men, one on the Left, the other on the Right). Do you think the KKK (people who denigrate the likes of you, a non-white) should be denigrated? Have you ever complained that the KKK is being denigrated?

4. Another aspect: Let's say you're a Sikh living in, say, Delhi. You're embarrassed by your Punjab-residing cousins, whom the media portrays as rabble-rousers or even terrorist. You don't want to look like a terrorist, so you don't have an untied beard. You tie your beard up neatly, you wear a starched, "smart" turban with pins, not a "terrorist turban". You don't wear Punjabi clothes, you wear a shirt and slacks or jeans and a t-shirt, nice shoes. You don't speak Punjabi unless at home, you speak English or Hindi. You don't even take Punjab's side in stuff like river-water allocation, or whatever. And yet ... when you walk down the street or in your college, you're welcomed with "Baran vajj gaye, Sardar ji?" ("Has the clock struck 12?"). And also, in social situations, you're forced to listen to "sardarji jokes", and also to laugh along to show you're a good sport (i.e., a good little trained monkey self-hating Sikh). 

Do you think that, at some point, some Sikh, somewhere, might get the bright idea, "Hey, there are all these Sardarji jokes. Why don't we make some Panditji jokes?" Again, I'm not supporting hateful jokes (see point #1 above). But do you understand why someone might want to turn the tables?

5. As for the religious aspects, I would like to start by asking you, do you consider Guru Nanak ji to be a Hindu? I know that many (most?) Hindus do.

Also, do you consider Sikhs Hindus? Many (most?) Hindus do. That's not surprising, because the Constitution of India says Sikhs are Hindus. 

Now, given the Sikhs are, legally, Hindus, and Hindus consider Sikhs Hindus, if a bunch of Sikhs crack some jokes on Hindus, is there a problem? Basically, it's just Hindus cracking jokes on Hindus. Shouldn't be a problem, right?

As for criticizing Hindus, I and almost every other member of this site criticize, make fun of, and decry Sikhs all the time on this site. Given that, and also if Sikhs are Hindus, they are just Hindus criticizing Hindus. Again, not a problem, right?


Please consider my points seriously. And also please answer all the questions above in response, they are not just rhetorical. Bhul chuk muaf.
 

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By the way, Guest Saddened Hindu, please make an account. It's free. You get notifications when someone responds to you. It makes having a conversation much easier than posting something, and hoping that the other guy refreshes the page and sees the new post. I do look forward to your reply to my post above.

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Guest Jacfsing2
6 hours ago, Guest Saddened Hindu said:

Moderator/Administrator, I am still waiting for the comment I made in answer to Jacfsing2 n dominator to be published here. 

Please advise if you felt any/some parts inappropriate for this forum.

@GuestSaddenedHindu, I do want to know what you have to say especially with your concerns, and the fact that you have some s*hitty a*ssholes as your friends. So do make an account here, and if you don't feel comfortable discussing it publicly on the forum, you can still pm me.

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Guest Saddened Hindu
1 hour ago, Jacfsing2 said:

@GuestSaddenedHindu, I do want to know what you have to say especially with your concerns, and the fact that you have some s*hitty a*ssholes as your friends. So do make an account here, and if you don't feel comfortable discussing it publicly on the forum, you can still pm me.

Hello Jacfsing2 

Since then my comment has been published. I have conveniently addressed it to you n the other member by the name dominator. It's about my experience and the ensuing dilemma. Please do read and let me know your take on it. Do remember the topic heading I chose n my main concern. My only concern is the existense of hate amongst Sikhs for Hindus. As far as my friends are concerned, I'm sure they don't intend a targeted disrespect towards me. It's highly likely that you share jokes of similar nature but you still are here conducting youself in an honourable manner n even offering a private platform to ensure I feel uninhibited in expressing my views. My friend I have no malice whatsoever. But read my comment, respond and we'll continue this conversation as I would come up with lot of questions through this journey.

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Guest Saddened Hindu
1 hour ago, BhForce said:

By the way, Guest Saddened Hindu, please make an account. It's free. You get notifications when someone responds to you. It makes having a conversation much easier than posting something, and hoping that the other guy refreshes the page and sees the new post. I do look forward to your reply to my post above.

Hi BhForce

I would definitely reply in detail but I'll hazard a guess that you live outside of India and you would be aware of the lifestyles n shortage of hours in the day that we feel to just get the chores done, especially with very young brood to take care of. So please bear with me and afford me the courtesy of time. I'll heed to your advice and sign up. Meanwhile please try to put up with my erratic schedule.

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17 hours ago, Guest Saddened Hindu said:
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So it must be true. Your referring me as You and Your Community is quite hurtful.

Why is it hurtful? Do you not recognize sikhi as distinct and separate or do you consider it just a part of hinduism  

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 I haven't taught you or other Sikhs anything and have taken no actions against you or other Sikhs.

I never said you as an individual did anything I was specifically talking about your people and your leaders(i.e hindus who have malicious intent toward sikhs and skhi)

Quote

But when I go to a gurudwara and have to articulate to my 6 year old girl's query that whether Sikhs hate us or not, I really wonder what does the institution stand for.

Pretty specific question for a 6 year old to ask your child is smart for 6 year old

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My 6 year old girl sitting in a sangat with her father, both our heads covered in reverence, listens to an 8 year old boy read a speech saying ,"Aj hinduan di pardhanmantri nu maar ke shahidi prapt kiti.....,", "hinduan ne...", "hinduan di...", "hinduan nu..."etc and then asks me why are we here dad when they hate us, it saddens me.

Another good question so why are you there if you think all those people hate you?

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Is this the history lesson that we find is imperative to teach so our progeny doesn't have any doubts about our identity? Majority of sangat in gurudwara were Hindus with their head covered n bowed in reverence, most of an age incapable of comprehending the hatred let alone the reason behind it.

Well maybe they should go do some research and pick up a few books the "reason behind it" would than become clear or should I say reasons as there are many.

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 History is documented. This in itself means that it has suffered inflictions of bias, inaccuracies, opinions and emotions. 

In this case history is remembered 84 and the bloody decade that followed was not that long ago

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So to answer my girl's question I approached that 8 year old lad, congratulated him for his eloquent delivery in Punjabi despite the accent, and asked him, in front of his parents, whether he knew the names of the sons Guruji sacrificed. He drew a blank. Then I asked my girl and she rattled Sahizades' names. So I looked the boy's father in the eye and said that this is what he needs to remember. 

Once again you have a smart child good for you and good for her

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And I told my girl that Sikhs don't hate us.

No we dont its the other way around

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And I told myself that it's not an institution that I'll never visit but it's a bare building propagating hatred that I'll never set my foot in. I am sure you would answer with so whats. To approach any opposing viewpoint with nonchalance & disdain and to dismiss it with 'I dont care' is disrespectful. I'm sure my so called friends feel exactly like you do. I hope and I'll even hazard that I know that they don't mean any individual disrespect towards me and my family. But your answers/comments and tone have definitely shed a light why they are or have become so.

Oh please spare me the bs I've heard this bullsh!t a million times before.So your offended by the fact that we dont forget our history and still remember what your people did to us but your not offended by the fact that the hindu politicians who led hindu mobs to murder and rape our innocents are still walking around free to this day forget being punished they were given high level positions and top level protection from the central government.Your not offended by the fact that Gen Brar is seen as a hero by hindus everywhere for desecrating our holiest shrine. Your not offended by the fact that psychopathic mass murderer and rapist kp gill was seen as a hero by hindus everywhere for killing and raping our innocents(not saying gill and brar were hindus just pointing out that they are seen as hereos by hindus) Your not offended that our shaheeds who sacrificed everything for us are falsly labeled as terrorists by your people. Dont lie you probably thought of gen brar and kp gill as hereos yourself.People like you are the worst type of snakes you hide the venom in your heart behind kind words.

 

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