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Budha Dal & Banda Bairagi - The Facts

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To whoever it may concern (probably everyone), I am not taking any sides. I am not saying I believe it or not, that opinion I have is personal with me.

Don't harass me please ;-;

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It's interesting because Suraj Prakash Granth even notes that Mata Sundri Ji cursed Baba Banda Singh Bahadur due to his arrogance and insults towards the Khalsa and the panth as a whole (also making remarks that Mata Sundri Ji was working WITH the mughals). The curse that Mata Ji placed on him was so extreme he lost his sanity, his birs, his powers..just about everything. 

But if I recall right Panth Prakash Granth says that Baba Ji was initiated into the Khalsa.

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1 hour ago, Kira said:

It's interesting because Suraj Prakash Granth even notes that Mata Sundri Ji cursed Baba Banda Singh Bahadur due to his arrogance and insults towards the Khalsa and the panth as a whole (also making remarks that Mata Sundri Ji was working WITH the mughals). The curse that Mata Ji placed on him was so extreme he lost his sanity, his birs, his powers..just about everything. 

But if I recall right Panth Prakash Granth says that Baba Ji was initiated into the Khalsa.

No such thing occurred. The writers of Suraj Prakash and Panth Prakash errored in regards to Baba Ji. They base their views on the so called letters of Mata ji which are now considered to be forged(most probably by the mughals) to confuse and break ranks of the Khalsa who at the time had almost succeeded in establishing Khalsa raaj in present day Punjab, Haryana and Himachal area. Even noted Sikh historian Dr Anurag Singh is of the opinion those letters were forged and not written by Mata ji.

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http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Jarnail_Singh_(Bhindran_wale)/41_Questions_with_Sant_Jarnail_Singh_Ji_Bhindrawalae/Sant.Jarnail.Singh.(Bhindra.wale)--41.Questions.with.Sant.Jarnail.Singh.Ji.Bhindrawalae.Part.01.mp3

 

listen to what Sant Jarnail Singh says about Banda Bahadur from 10:00 mins onwards. Sant Ji compares Banda to nirankari fake guru.... but I guess certain members on this site know better then Sant Ji!

 

Mata Sundri Ji hukamnama, Sant Jarnail Singh, panth Prakash by Rattan Singh Bhangu, Giani Gian Singh & oral tradition of Budha Dal all say the same thing about Banda

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23 minutes ago, Mahakaal96 said:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Jarnail_Singh_(Bhindran_wale)/41_Questions_with_Sant_Jarnail_Singh_Ji_Bhindrawalae/Sant.Jarnail.Singh.(Bhindra.wale)--41.Questions.with.Sant.Jarnail.Singh.Ji.Bhindrawalae.Part.01.mp3

 

listen to what Sant Jarnail Singh says about Banda Bahadur from 10:00 mins onwards. Sant Ji compares Banda to nirankari fake guru.... but I guess certain members on this site know better then Sant Ji!

 

Sant Jarnail Singh ji says kirpan da Amrit to women is manmat and it is manmat. So I guess you know better than sant ji when you promote kirpan da Amrit on this site.

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30 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

Sant Jarnail Singh ji says kirpan da Amrit to women is manmat and it is manmat. So I guess you know better than sant ji when you promote kirpan da Amrit on this site.

Been discussed several times on several threads..... stick to the topic instead of doing what you usually do & derail topics..... all posts so far have been about the topic at hand until you came along *edited* (change tact next time... you 2 are becoming transparent).

No more replies to anything that is not within the topic from me :) 

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23 minutes ago, Mahakaal96 said:

Been discussed several times on several threads..... stick to the topic instead of doing what you usually do & derail topics..... all posts so far have been about the topic at hand until you came along *edited* (change tact next time... you 2 are becoming transparent).

No more replies to anything that is not within the topic from me :) 

You could have very well have posted without making personal insults towards me. I've edited out the personal insults and left the rest.

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12 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

You made Sant Jarnail Singh ji as an authority figure because it pushed your agenda.  Where Sant Jarnail Singh ji speaks against your agenda, you ignore and slander the person who brings up Sant ji statements.  Your miserable attempt to push your agenda falls flat on its head and you make up excuses.  You changed the topic by attempting to make Sant Jarnail Singh ji an authority figure when it helps your agenda.  This is what I addressed.  

Read the post again. I also mentioned Mata Sundri Ji, Rattan Singh Bhangu, Giani  Gian Singh & Budha Dal as supportive of Sant Ji’s view... they are all authorative figures.

Simarily on the topic of Kirpan amrit.... Sant Ji has his views but there are sants who support the views of Budha Dal, Hazur Sahib & Bhai Chaupa Singh rehitnama.... learn how to weigh up actual evidence instead of indulging in personality worship & believing everything based on 1 viewpoint.

Saints of the highest level have had disagreements before. I would name names & give examples but I don’t have that much time for you.

now.... stick to the topic of the thread 

Edited by Mahakaal96
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Can Mahakaal provide proof of Baba Banda Singh claiming to be Guru from the writings of Baba Banda  Singh Bahadur? Baba Ji wrote many letters and he never once refers to himself as Guru. The fact that he always refers to Guru Gobind Singh ji as Guru and in Guru jee's name he had issued the coins of the Sikh state. He was so humble that he never even claimed to be a king like Maharaja Ranjit Singh did after winning a huge territory.

 

The only contemporary sources to refer to him as Guru were the Mughals ones so it can be said to be Mughal propaganda to sow discord in Sikh ranks. We've had similar situation in our own recent times when GOI and their Sikh chumchas claim Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale wanted to become Guru of the Sikhs. But in today's age of technology and knowledge we were better able to counter these claims. But Sikhs 300 years ago did not have the resources as Sikhs today do to counter government propaganda.

 

The so called letters of Mata ji against Baba Ji are forged. Dr Anurag Singh studied these letters and is of the opinion that they do not match her writing style

 

Now discuss without personal insults this time.

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The so called letters of Mata ji against Baba Ji are forged. Dr Anurag Singh studied these letters and is of the opinion that they do not match her writing style

can you provide letters that are authenticated to be written by Mata Sundri Ji? 

Quote

The only contemporary sources to refer to him as Guru were the Mughals ones so it can be said to be Mughal propaganda to sow discord in Sikh ranks. We've had similar situation in our own recent times when GOI and their Sikh chumchas claim Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale wanted to become Guru of the Sikhs. But in today's age of technology and knowledge we were better able to counter these claims. But Sikhs 300 years ago did not have the resources as Sikhs today do to counter government propaganda.

Again that's speculation. You have the words of one scholar vs the words of the Mukhi of the institute that specialised in preserving Sikh History. Why would Sant Jarnail Singh Ji slander someone? was he wrong then? 

Quote

Baba Ji wrote many letters and he never once refers to himself as Guru. 

Can you provide those letters please? so we can also cross examine them? the dates on them will be really important as well.

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35 minutes ago, Jonny101 said:

Can Mahakaal provide proof of Baba Banda Singh claiming to be Guru from the writings of Baba Banda  Singh Bahadur? Baba Ji wrote many letters and he never once refers to himself as Guru. The fact that he always refers to Guru Gobind Singh ji as Guru and in Guru jee's name he had issued the coins of the Sikh state. He was so humble that he never even claimed to be a king like Maharaja Ranjit Singh did after winning a huge territory.

 

The only contemporary sources to refer to him as Guru were the Mughals ones so it can be said to be Mughal propaganda to sow discord in Sikh ranks. We've had similar situation in our own recent times when GOI and their Sikh chumchas claim Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale wanted to become Guru of the Sikhs. But in today's age of technology and knowledge we were better able to counter these claims. But Sikhs 300 years ago did not have the resources as Sikhs today do to counter government propaganda.

 

The so called letters of Mata ji against Baba Ji are forged. Dr Anurag Singh studied these letters and is of the opinion that they do not match her writing style

 

Now discuss without personal insults this time.

Mata Sundri Ji’s rehitnama from Giani Gian singh commentary was provided on previous thread.

Sant Jarnail Singh katha link provided

Rattan Singh Bhangu panth Prakash listed as source

Kavi Santokh Singh Suraj Prakash listed

History from Budha Dal oral tradition provided on this thread

local history in Hazur Sahib can be sourced first hand 

You provide 1 name, DR Anurag Singh to dissprove the above mentioned sources then ask for more evidence?....... your having a laugh.

The ball is firmly in your court to provide something other then someone’s name..... a name you are using to say that Mata Sundri Ji hukamnama is forged & that Sant Jarnail singh (Taksal), Rattan singh Bhangu (grandson of Mehtab Singh), Kavi Santokh singh, Giani Gian Singh, Budha Dal (puratan sampardai) Hazur Sahib (local history) were all duped & are wrong!!!

 

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1 minute ago, Kira said:

can you provide letters that are authenticated to be written by Mata Sundri Ji? 

Again that's speculation. You have the words of one scholar vs the words of the Mukhi of the institute that specialised in preserving Sikh History. Why would Sant Jarnail Singh Ji slander someone? was he wrong then? 

Can you provide those letters please? so we can also cross examine them? the dates on them will be really important as well.

I don't have the letters of Mata ji at present. As for letters of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, I've read them a long time ago from a book I had. I will see if I still have it in my personal library.

As for Sant ji. They said said that based on Panth Prakash and PP was written during the era of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. Besides that PP is not Gurbani that it cannot contain mistakes and we cannot scrutinize it. For example PP claims Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh was killed due to being cursed and that Shaheed Baba Gurbaksh Singh jee drank Bhang first thing in the morning even before Ishnan and Nitnem(which goes against Nihang maryadha of not eating before Ishnan).

 

Baba Banda Singh Bahadur was the personal hand picked choice of Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj. I have faith in Guru jee's personal choice. He was given Amrit in presence of Guru ji. He was given 5 arrows from the quiver of Guru ji. Only a Gurmukh can be so blessed not a manmukh.

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11 minutes ago, Mahakaal96 said:

Mata Sundri Ji’s rehitnama from Giani Gian singh commentary was provided on previous thread.

Sant Jarnail Singh katha link provided

Rattan Singh Bhangu panth Prakash listed as source

Kavi Santokh Singh Suraj Prakash listed

History from Budha Dal oral tradition provided on this thread

local history in Hazur Sahib can be sourced first hand 

You provide 1 name, DR Anurag Singh to dissprove the above mentioned sources then ask for more evidence?....... your having a laugh.

The ball is firmly in your court to provide something other then someone’s name..... a name you are using to say that Mata Sundri Ji hukamnama is forged & that Sant Jarnail singh (Taksal), Rattan singh Bhangu (grandson of Mehtab Singh), Kavi Santokh singh, Giani Gian Singh, Budha Dal (puratan sampardai) Hazur Sahib (local history) were all duped & are wrong!!!

 

You didn't address any of my points. Can you provide any thing from the writings of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur to prove he claimed to be Guru? Have you even read his letters? The only contemporary source to say he is Guru was from the Mughals who were our enemies and the primary source of this false propaganda

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