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TheeTurbanator

Understanding the deeper meaning behind "Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false."

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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh! 

Often times when I or many other Sikhs are debating people of other faiths, I allways hear some Sikhs bring up the line:

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥ - Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 1350

Which is translated to mean: "Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false."

Link to full shabad: https://www.searchgurbani.com/guru-granth-sahib/ang-by-ang


I have asked many people about the true meaning behind this tuk, and most people would agree that its correctly translated, however there are some who would disagree, and translate it in a way that is directly the opposite of what the English translation means. Let me give you an example:

 

Literal meaning breakdown


ਬੇਦ = Literally meaning "Ved" referring to the Vedas from Sanatana Dharma (often called "Hinduism") 

ਕਤੇਬ = Literally meaning "books", however in the context of Bhagat Kabeer it means the three major abrehamic books: bible, quran, torah. 

ਕਹਹੁ = Literally meaning "Say"

ਮਤ = Now this is the part that is often disputed. How one interprets this one word can change the entire shabads meaning, and even affect Sikhi as a whole. Often times people will say "mat" means "do not", however the same word is also used with different meanings. An example is the word "Gurmat", this word doesn't mean "Guru Dont". 

ਝੂਠੇ = Literally meaning "false" or "untrue" 

 

Differences in Opinion 

 

The AKJ founder Randhir Singh translated this tuk to mean that Bhagat Kabeer (who is technically not a Muslim but a Sikh as per Gurbani) is saying that this tuk is saying that the ved and abrehamic books are false, however most of the English translations that Sikhs read, seem to suggest the exact opposite.

I am personalty not AKJ or any other jatha, and I disagree with some stuff Bhai Randir Singh says, however on this specific issue, I  lean towards "ਮਤ" not meaning "do not" in this context. The reason for this is becuase if you take the entire shabad, as well as the life of Bhagat Kabeer, its obvious that hes criticizing Islamic practices, and fundamental ideas of the abrehamic regions, and the eastern dharmas under the blanket of Sanatana Dharma. 

People often bring up the counter argument that "all relgions/dharmas have some truth in them", and this is generally true, and varies on specific relgion or dharma, however in general, the reason Sikhi needed to be revitalized in the 4th age (Kal Yug "the dark age") was becuase all other religions and dharms had failed (as stated in Dasam Granth which is generally believed to be written by the Guru in his 10th temporal form). Bani also criticizes the vedas on other shabads, correct me if im wrong, but at one point it literally says that its make belief, so then why would the Guru contradict itself? 

 

Here is an example of a counterargument against the English translation of "Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false."
 

Link to counterargument: http://www.searchsikhism.com/islam-in-gurbani

My questions for Sikh who are educated in Gurbani: 

  • What do you guys think of this?
  • Do you think the English translation of Gurbani was deliberately changed to not offend others? 
  • If so, what is the correct way to interpret this tuk? 

 

 

Edited by TheeTurbanator
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The translations most sikhs are on a whole completely misleading. They're far too Western-centric as a result core principles are totally lost within them.

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What do you think of the aforementioned tuk? Which translation is accurate? 

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1 hour ago, Kira said:

The translations most sikhs are on a whole completely misleading. They're far too Western-centric as a result core principles are totally lost within them.

Yogi Harbhajan, in a bid to further his cult, had the self-proclaimed sophist Sant Singh translate Gurbani. Sant Singh, himself, admitted he was not up to the task but nonetheless continued under Yogi's guidance.

https://tisarpanthdotcom.wordpress.com/2017/10/29/a-matter-of-translation/

 

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What I understood from this, and I ask for an apology in advance, is that don't just blatantly rule out something because of the status quo. Don't just be a mindless sheep that follows popular opinion, however formulate opinions on your own. If most Sikhs or people in general are saying the Koran is fake, the Vedas are fake because they are not texts from their religion, don't just accept that. Find out for yourself. Read, understand, contemplate on them, and then form a conclusive opinion on them. Because otherwise by calling these texts fake without having read them in the first place, makes you as fake as your accusation.  

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Vaheguru's creation is immeasurable. Do I think Sikhi is pure truth? Yes. But clearly it isn't the only path to sanyog. If you think it is, it's haumai sorry. 

I have no knowledge regarding this bani, but this comment is more directed at the Sikhi is the only way mentality, which anyone is free to believe but I'd caution one to consider the weight of this statement given the infinity of time, space, and place. 

I've turned to Sikhi, and thrown myself at the feet of the Guru for a reason. It is pure truth, but it's not the only expression of pure truth. 

Note, I'm not saying these other paths are pure truth, but they contain enough truth to forge saints and the naam is an open path to all, regardless of the naam they use, if one fully embraces Vaheguru as Sikhi teaches, sanyog is available. 

My gut says this bani is about respecting other faiths and respecting the truth they contain to whatever degree. I however am an illiterate child in regards to Gurbani. 

I'm sure I've offended some people, but it is what it is. 

I'd feel like I was letting you down by not saying this.  Beware the trap of trying to own Vaheguru and thinking you can describe and own the entirety of Divine, Immortal, Timeless, Selfcreating, Fearless, Hateless Truth and Love.  Japji Sahib speaks to this. 

Feel free to hate away, I've said this with love for you all, and the utmost respect for Sikhi as pure truth itself. 

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh 

Edited by GurjantGnostic
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Quote

The AKJ founder Randhir Singh translated this tuk to mean that Bhagat Kabeer (who is technically not a Muslim but a Sikh as per Gurbani) is saying that this tuk is saying that the ved and abrehamic books are false, however most of the English translations that Sikhs read, seem to suggest the exact opposite.

can you source this btw.

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17 minutes ago, Kira said:

can you source this btw.

Which part do you want me to source?

If your talking about Randhir Singhs translation, its already in the link I shared, if you havent read it, then here it is again:  http://www.searchsikhism.com/islam-in-gurbani

As for Bhagat Kebeer, its so obvious that he is a Sikh when you take his bani into account. Even if he and other Bhagats were around before Guru Nanak was physical born, they can still be Sikhs of the Guru, the ONE Guru (there is only one Guru as per Gurbani). 

 

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14 minutes ago, TheeTurbanator said:

Which part do you want me to source?

If your talking about Randhir Singhs translation, its already in the link I shared, if you havent read it, then here it is again:  http://www.searchsikhism.com/islam-in-gurbani

As for Bhagat Kebeer, its so obvious that he is a Sikh when you take his bani into account. Even if he and other Bhagats were around before Guru Nanak was physical born, they can still be Sikhs of the Guru, the ONE Guru (there is only one Guru as per Gurbani). 

 

Shabad, shabad is the true Guru.

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5 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥

‘Veda Koran bible do not say they are false,  false are those who do not contemplate’

 

meaning, the Vedas, Koran & bible are not false because they contemplate parmeshvar, those who do not contemplate parmeshvar are false. 

Essentially it’s the contemplation of parmeshvar that is being exalted here above all else regardless of faith or religion etc 

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3 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

What do you think of the aforementioned tuk? Which translation is accurate? 

The shabad has to be looked at as a whole with the tuks that proceed. There are a few important messages in the shabad and they don't demean ancient texts written thousands of years ago.

This shabad's important message is "chutah joh na bicharey"... To understand the context, you have to meditate/contemplate this shabad deeply.  Spend some time on it and I would be more than willing to work through it with you so that you end up with a more truthful understanding.   

Few points to consider is that -  Kabir ji is addressing this to the mullah,...He's not addressing the wisdom of the texts, but the practice and vichaar of the people...

 

 

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14 minutes ago, luckysingh99 said:

To understand the context, you have to meditate/contemplate this shabad deeply.  Spend some time on it and I would be more than willing to work through it with you so that you end up with a more truthful understanding

Why do you assume that I have not contemplated it when I literally posted a breakdown of it and multiple perspectives. The only reason I ask a question...is because I have failed to realize its meaning on my own. 

I would really appreciate if you actually read the article I linked, because it brings up your arguement about kabir adressing this to someone. 

I would also really appreciate if you would actually properly answer my questions instead of telling me to think about it. 

Thank you. 

Edited by TheeTurbanator

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26 minutes ago, luckysingh99 said:

The shabad has to be looked at as a whole with the tuks that proceed. There are a few important messages in the shabad and they don't demean ancient texts written thousands of years ago.

Did you even read the article that I posted? Did you even read anything I wrote in my post? I and the article have already addressed both these issues.

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Please, if you do not have a proper understanding of Gurbani, and don’t even properly read my post, do not comment. 

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For those who have doubts on Bhagat Kabeer ji's views here is another bit of Gurbani to elucidate:

(Ang 1158)
Bhagat Kabeer Jee
ਹਮਰਾ ਝਗਰਾ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਕੋਊ ॥
hamraa jhagraa rahaa na ko-oo.
I have no quarrel with anyone.
ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਛਾਡੇ ਦੋਊ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
panddit mulaa(n) chhaade do-oo. 1 rahaa-o.
I have abandoned both the Pandits, the Hindu religious scholars, and the Mullahs, the Muslim priests. 1Pause
ਬੁਨਿ ਬੁਨਿ ਆਪ ਆਪੁ ਪਹਿਰਾਵਉ ॥
bun bun aap aap pehiraavau.
I weave and weave, and wear what I weave.
ਜਹ ਨਹੀ ਆਪੁ ਤਹਾ ਹੋਇ ਗਾਵਉ ॥੨॥
jeh nehee aap tehaa ho-e gaavau. 2
Where egotism does not exist, there I sing God's Praises. 2
ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਜੋ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੀਆ ॥
panddit mulaa(n) jo likh dee-aa.
Whatever the Pandits and Mullahs have written,
ਛਾਡਿ ਚਲੇ ਹਮ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਲੀਆ ॥੩॥
chhaad chale ham kachhoo na lee-aa. 3
I reject; I do not accept any of it. 3
ਰਿਦੈ ਇਖਲਾਸੁ ਨਿਰਖਿ ਲੇ ਮੀਰਾ ॥
ridai ikhlaas nirakh le meeraa.
My heart is pure, and so I have seen the Lord within.
ਆਪੁ ਖੋਜਿ ਖੋਜਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਕਬੀਰਾ ॥੪॥੭॥
aap khoj khoj mile kabeeraa. 47
Searching, searching within the self, Kabeer has met the Lord. 47

 

 

Bhagat Kabeer ji states he rejects the teaching of both faiths , what would be the reason ? because they do not give the true path that sikhi is .

Bhagat Naamdev coming from the other view :

(Ang 951)
ਮ: ੧ ॥
mehlaa 1.
First Mehl:
ਹਿੰਦੂ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਆਵੈ ॥
hindoo kai ghar hindoo aavai.
The Hindu comes to the house of a Hindu.
ਸੂਤੁ ਜਨੇਊ ਪੜਿ ਗਲਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
soot jane-oo paR gal paavai.
He puts the sacred thread around his neck and reads the scriptures.
ਸੂਤੁ ਪਾਇ ਕਰੇ ਬੁਰਿਆਈ ॥
soot paa-e kare buri-aa-ee.
He puts on the thread, but does evil deeds.
ਨਾਤਾ ਧੋਤਾ ਥਾਇ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
naataa Dhotaa thaa-e na paa-ee.
His cleansings and washings will not be approved.
ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨੁ ਕਰੇ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
musalmaan kare vaddi-aa-ee.
The Muslim glorifies his own faith.
ਵਿਣੁ ਗੁਰ ਪੀਰੈ ਕੋ ਥਾਇ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
vin gur peerai ko thaa-e na paa-ee.Without the Guru or a spiritual teacher, no one is accepted.
ਰਾਹੁ ਦਸਾਇ ਓਥੈ ਕੋ ਜਾਇ ॥
raahu dasaa-e othai ko jaa-e.They may be shown the way, but only a few go there.
ਕਰਣੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਭਿਸਤਿ ਨ ਪਾਇ ॥
karNee baajhahu bhisat na paa-e.
Without the karma of good actions, heaven is not attained.
ਜੋਗੀ ਕੈ ਘਰਿ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਦਸਾਈ ॥
jogee kai ghar jugat dasaa-ee.
The Way of Yoga is demonstrated in the Yogi's monastery.
ਤਿਤੁ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਕਨਿ ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਪਾਈ ॥
<banned word filter activated> kaaraN kan mundraa paa-ee.
They wear ear-rings to show the way.
ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਾ ਪਾਇ ਫਿਰੈ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ॥
mundraa paa-e firai sansaar.
Wearing ear-rings, they wander around the world.
ਜਿਥੈ ਕਿਥੈ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰੁ ॥
jithai kithai sirjaNhaar.
The Creator Lord is everywhere.
ਜੇਤੇ ਜੀਅ ਤੇਤੇ ਵਾਟਾਊ ॥
jete jee-a tete vaattaa-oo.
There are as many travellers as there are beings.
ਚੀਰੀ ਆਈ ਢਿਲ ਨ ਕਾਊ ॥
cheeree aa-ee dhil na kaa-oo.
When one's death warrant is issued, there is no delay.
ਏਥੈ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਸਿਞਾਣੈ ॥
eithai jaaNai so jaa-e sinjaaNai.
One who knows the Lord here, realizes Him there as well.
ਹੋਰੁ ਫਕੜੁ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੈ ॥
hor fakaR hindoo musalmaaNai.
Others, whether Hindu or Muslim, are just babbling.
ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਦਰਿ ਲੇਖਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
sabhnaa kaa dar lekhaa ho-e.
Everyone's account is read in the Court of the Lord;
ਕਰਣੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਤਰੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
karNee baajhahu tarai na ko-e.
without the karma of good actions, no one crosses over.
ਸਚੋ ਸਚੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
sacho sach vakhaaNai ko-e.
One who speaks the True Name of the True Lord,
ਨਾਨਕ ਅਗੈ ਪੁਛ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੨॥
naanak agai puchh na ho-e. 2
O Nanak, is not called to account hereafter. 2

 

sikhi is the only path which gives true liberation:

ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਪਾਖੰਡ ਜੋ ਦੀਸਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਜਮੁ ਜਾਗਾਤੀ ਲੂਟੈ ॥
karam Dharam pakhandd jo deesehi tin jam jaagaatee loottai.
The religious rites, rituals and hypocrisies which are seen, are plundered by the Messenger of Death, the ultimate tax collector.
(Ang 747)


ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਸਤ ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਪੜਿਆ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
bed kateb simrit sabh saasat inH pai-aa mukat na ho-ee.
One may read all the books of the Vedas, the Bible, the Simritees and the Shaastras, but they will not bring liberation.
ਏਕੁ ਅਖਰੁ ਜੋ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਾਪੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੀ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਸੋਈ ॥੩॥
eik akhar jo gurmukh jaapai tis kee nirmal so-ee. 3
One who, as Gurmukh, chants the One Word, acquires a spotlessly pure reputation. 3
ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥
khatree braahmaN sood vais updes chahu varnaa kau saa(n)jhaa.
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪੈ ਉਧਰੈ ਸੋ ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਮਾਝਾ ॥੪॥੩॥੫੦॥
gurmukh naam japai uDhrai so kal meh ghatt ghatt naanak maajhaa. 4350
One who, as Gurmukh, chants the Naam, the Name of the Lord, is saved. In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, O Nanak, God is permeating the hearts of each and every being. 4350
(Ang 4350)


Guru Sahib states in this Shabad that the Gurus teachings are to liberate mankind not just Sikhs as stated in the Shabad above, Guru Sahib says be truthful in your own faith but you will not be liberated without meditating on the Lords name Athai Pehar 24 hours.
 

 

Edited by jkvlondon
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