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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

A Basic Rundown of Vaisakhi

Vaisakhi is a dharmic, and cultural festival which is celebrated on the 13th or 14th of April every year. For Sikhs, it commemorates the formation of Khalsa Panth, for Punjabi's it marks the beginning of the harvest season. The celebration of Vaisakhi predates Sikhi itself, however after the formalization of the Khalsa in 1699 it was mainly celebrated as a religious event for Sikhs.

A lot of people might not realize this, but Guru Nanak Dev Ji was also born on Vaisakhi 1469 (Wikipedia is wrong), the same day Guru Gobind Singh Ji, the 10th Human form of Nanak, decided to lay down the formalization for the Khalsa Panth. This fact is often forgotten, but it amplifies the importance of Vaisakhi for Sikhs, as not just a celebration for the creation of the Khalsa, but also the day Guru Nanak Dev Ji was born.

The Truth about Vaisakhi

Vaisakhi used to be a Punjabi new years harvest festival, and was transformed by Guru Gobind Singh Ji to celebrate the creation of the Khalsa, but modern day Vaisakhi has mostly devolved from a celebration of the Khalsa back into a Punjabi festival. Vaisakhi for Sikhs isnt about Bhangra dancing, colorful cloths, or free food, it's about celebrating the creation of the Khalsa Panth.

When I ask non-sikhs, and even some sikhs about Vaisakhi, they seem to be clueless as to why we celebrate it in the first place, and instead make it about free food or socializing with friends. We attend all these Nagar Kirtan parades and we eat food and meet friends, but at the end of the day we dont end up learning anything about Sikhi.

Sadly, Vaisakhi also gets hijacked by corporations trying to promote their business, and Politicians trying to promote their party. This is bad becuase their are taking advantage of such an important occasion, however isn't that bad becuase these corporations and politicians also contribute a lot of funds to organizing Vaisakhi, help spread awareness, and participate in it themselves to attract even more people. I think we should find a way to limit them, if not cut them out completely.

We are not responsible for promoting another culture at a Sikh event, especially when they are using Gurdwara money, on Gurdwara property, under the name of a Sikh event. Punjabi culture itself is often times anti Sikh as it promotes alcohol, sexism, caste system, etc. If we allow any of it, then we risk mixing it and passing it off as Sikhi to the rest of the world. This will create a lot of problems becuase people will be fed misinformation that will be the direct result of Sikhi being watered down by Punjabi culture.

Now before you get triggered and start calling me a radical, fundamentalist, zealot, extremist or any of the buzzwords people like to use, just keep in mind that I am a freedom of speech and expression advocate, and I dont feel like we should outright ban Bhangra, Punjabi Music, or food. I definitely feel like their are a lot of people who come to Vaisakhi just for the food, music, dancing, etc, and to ban the aforementioned practices would cut off a lot of people who could be potentially educated on Sikhi. Instead of having a complete blanket Ban like some Sikhs propose, I think that we should try to somehow limit the Punjabi culture and push back hard and find a way to bring the focus on Vaisakhi back to Sikhi instead of Punjabi culture.

Typical Punjabi "Counterarguments"

When I bring up the issue of the Punjabiization of Vaisakhi, I often times hear the same pathetic counterarguments from Punjabis who try to defend the Punjabification of Vaisakhi. I will now address some of these common "counterarguments" that Punjabis bring up in defense of the current state of Vaisakhi.

One common argument Punjabis like to bring up is "oh but most people who attend Vaisakhi are already Sikh, why do you have to promote relgion so much?", that might be true, but keep in mind that most people are only Sikh in name, and when confronted, they know very little about Sikhi, or just know misinformation. When I personally do parchaar and hand out the "3 Facts about Sikhi" leaflets at Vaisakhi, a lot of Punjabi "Sikhs" reject my lefts saying something along the lines of "were already Sikh,we know about Sikh-ism, just focus on the white people, not us", however when I ask them to explain the basic principles they fail miserably and then finally bend the knee and accept the leaflet.

Another common argument is "oh but Vaisakhi existed before Sikhi, and was celebrated by farmers as a new year's/harvest festival, you can't just hijack it", it's true that Vaisakhi and was celebrated as a new year's/harvest festival prior to Sikhi, however Sikhs celebrate it becuase of the creation of the Khalsa, and that is what really popularized Vaisakhi, and is what it's known for today. How many people, especially Sikhs in the west, honestly celebrate Vaisakhi as a harvest festival? Most of us aren't even farmers, without Sikhi, Vaisakhi would be all but irrelevant in the modern age. If someone wants to celebrate Vaisakhi as a harvest festival, then they are free to do so and we aren't stopping them, however we as Sikhs must remember that we celebrate Vaisakhi as the creation of the Khalsa.

Make Vaisakhi Great Again

At the moment Vaisakhi is nothing more than a Punjabi festival with a Sikhi twist, we need to reverse that. I propose that we start by increasing all efforts to do parchar and educate the community on Sikhi. Vaisakhi attracts hundreds of thousands of people, all of whom have the potential to be educated. This is a golden opportunity that only comes once a year, and we as a Panth need to capitalize on it if we are to grow Sikhi. What better place and time to spread Sikhi than at a Nagar Kirtan during Vaisakhi time.

It honestly says a lot about the Sikh community when very few "Sikhs" are educated on it, and even fewer are fully committed to the faith. I feel like we need to really focus on our community, and not sideline them in favor of non-sikhs, becuase at the end of the day these are the people who identify as Sikh and still practice some form of Sikhi, even tho it is a watered down, and heavily Punjabiized version.

Punjabi culture is like a double edged sword, it promotes anti-sikh practices, however it also promotes pride & bravery to defend ones way of life. When things get serious, Punjabi's are often the first one to go fight on the frontlines. During 1984 many non Amritdhari Punjabis, who were otherwise never religious and would never wake up for Amritvela, joined the fight and died fighting in defense of Harmandir Sahib. The thing about Punjabi's is that they are always ready to die for the Panth, but aren't willing to live for the Panth. I feel like Punjabis have a place in the Sikh community becuase without them we wouldn't get very far. We need to take the good things about Punjabi culture and leave the bad, this is why I dont feel like Punjabis are a lost cause and are worth doing Parchaar to.

What I propose is that we drastically increase our education efforts. This can be done in the form of educational events, school programs, university courses, and most importantly: street parchaar. We must also compare and contrast between Sikhi and Punjabism in order to separate them, and demonstrate Sikhi's obvious superiority.

Instead of a straight up ban, I would suggest we specifically stop Music that contains anti Sikh themes that promote drugs, alcohol, degrading women, etc at Sikh associated events and Gurdwaras. If someone wants to go around blasting anti Sikh music then by all means go ahead, but not at a Sikh event. As for bhangra, although it does not represent Sikhi, if someone wants to dance to celebrate the creation of the Khalsa then I think it's fine. If we follow through with the aforementioned strategies, we can still keep the Punjabis happy, all while promoting Sikhi!

My Question for the Community

What would you improve or change for Vaisakhi to make it focus more on sikhi, rather than Punjabi culture? Please leave your suggestions down below.

Resources

Informative Leaflets

RajoanaTV Exposing the Culturalization of Vaisakhi

Nanak Naam on why Sikhs celebrate Vaisakhi, & its significance

Basics of Sikhi on The Unique Khalsa Panth! Vaisakhi Katha

 

 

Edited by TheeTurbanator
edited to fix formatting issues and typos
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12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

The celebration of Vaisakhi predates Sikhi itself, however after the formalization of the Khalsa in 1699 it was mainly celebrated as a religious event for Sikhs.

What? You mean to say people stopped celebrating Vaisakhi after Guru Sahib created the Khalsa? No, they simply did not.

Not only that, Hindus celebrate Vaisakhi (under other names) throughout India, including:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaisakhi#Month_of_Vaisakh_celebrations_in_Hinduism

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

A lot of people might not realize this, but Guru Nanak Dev Ji was also born on Vaisakhi 1469 (Wikipedia is wrong),

It would have been better if you had simply stated that some Sikhs believe Guru Nanak ji was born on Baisakhi, instead of making the outright claim that Guru ji indeed was. The former is an undeniable true fact, the latter is a tenuous claim. 

Do you sitting in the 21st century know better the Bhai Gurdas ji who references the traditional date of Kattak Puranmashi?

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

Vaisakhi used to be a Punjabi new years harvest festival,

Used to be? It is a harvest festival (present tense).

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

was transformed by Guru Gobind Singh Ji to celebrate the creation of the Khalsa

The day was used by Guru Sahib. It was not "transformed" or banned, because there was no need for banning. Punjabis didn't worship idols on Vaisakhi, they merely celebrated the harvest.

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

modern day Vaisakhi has mostly devolved from a celebration of the Khalsa back into a Punjabi festival.

Devolved? Why do you feel a need to use that word? There's simply nothing wrong with celebrating the harvest.

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

Vaisakhi for Sikhs isnt about Bhangra dancing, colorful cloths, or free food, it's about celebrating the creation of the Khalsa Panth.

Yeah, for Sikhs it's about the Khalsa Panth. For Punjabis it is about (authentic) Bhangra dancing and colorful clothes. However, free food is not a Vaisakhi/Punjabi tradition, it's a Sikh tradition of Langar.

Why would you denigrate the Sikh institution of Langar?

Free food is not handed out at (inauthentic) Bhangra parties. It's handed out at Nagar Kirtans to the Sangat (or non-Sikhs, too).

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

We are not responsible for promoting another culture at a Sikh event,

Another culture?! It's out culture, man. Guru Sahib chose this day.

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

If we allow any of it, then we risk mixing it and passing it off as Sikhi to the rest of the world.

Are you really serious? You propose to remove every little bit of Punjabi culture from the Sikh panth? 

I'm just amazed at the self-hatred of our people. You'd never hear a Christian Englishman saying that "we need to ban every last bit of English culture".

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

when I ask them to explain the basic principles they fail miserably and then finally bend the knee and accept the leaflet.

Great, so keep doing this.

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

Most of us aren't even farmers, without Sikhi, Vaisakhi would be all but irrelevant in the modern age.

Since about the time of the 6th Guru, farmers constitute the largest single group in the Sikh Panth. I can't say if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it is reality.

I utterly fail to see what you hope to accomplish.

Also, if it's so irrelevant, then people won't celebrate it. Problem solved. Why do you need to interpose?

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

If someone wants to celebrate Vaisakhi as a harvest festival, then they are free to do so and we aren't stopping them, however we as Sikhs must remember that we celebrate Vaisakhi as the creation of the Khalsa.

OK, so what's the problem? All Sikhs celebrate the celebration of the Khalsa on Vaisakhi. And a great number of Sikhs celebrate the harvest. What are we arguing about?

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

I feel like Punjabis have a place in the Sikh community becuase without them we wouldn't get very far.

Spoken like you're not a Punjabi yourself. Again, an Englishman would never say "I feel like Englishmen can have a place in the Christian community."

So generous of you to offer a place to Punjabis in the Sikh Panth, who are, of course, the very folks (our forefathers) who suffered all the depraved invasions, killings, tortures, thefts, and rapes of the jihadis.

When you achieve your desired purge of Punjabi culture, all that remains will not be a "pure" Sikh culture. It will be Anglo culture with an unrecognizable Sikhi.

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

this is why I dont feel like Punjabis are a lost cause and are worth doing Parchaar to.

When you say "Punjabis" do you mean to say "Sikhs who aren't as hardcore as you because they're not Amritdhari"? Before you go down that road, I would remind you that that there are Sikhs who are more hardcore than you. Maybe @ipledgeblue wears a blue chola and 3 ft kirpan, and could say you're not a Sikh. (I'm not saying he would say that, just that he could. So think before you start calling people non-Sikhs.)

It's just stupendous that you would read Sikhs out of our religion just because they're not as knowledgeable as you.

This is another reason the definition of a Sikh by SGPC (yeah, hate on) is so good: It doesn't say you have to have Japji Sahib memorized to be a Sikh. It doesn't say you have to be kesadhari, or amritdhari to be a Sikh. It simply states you have to have faith in Akal Purakh, the 10 Gurus, their bani, Guru Granth Sahib, and the 10th Guru's Amrit, which is what all those people that you denigrate as mere "Punjabis" have faith in.

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

I would suggest we specifically stop Music that contains anti Sikh themes that promote drugs, alcohol, degrading women, etc at Sikh associated events and Gurdwaras.

You could have just led with that, bro, instead of a whole long essay denigrating our culture and heritage. Who in his right mind would disagree with the above statement?

In any case, non-religious music is not allowed at any nagar kirtan that I've seen. The few straggler Gurdwaras should get their act together.

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

As for bhangra, although it does not represent Sikhi, if someone wants to dance to celebrate the creation of the Khalsa then I think it's fine.

I hope we are talking about authentic bhangra, a dance by only men used to celebrate the harvest, not a male-female pop-music dancing gig.

12 hours ago, TheeTurbanator said:

We must also compare and contrast between Sikhi and Punjabism in order to separate them, and demonstrate Sikhi's obvious superiority.

No, we must preach against the bad elements of Punjabi culture (such as girl-killing), and also demonstrate Sikhi's superiority over other religions while also demonstrating Punjabi culture's superiority over other cultures.

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5 hours ago, BhForce said:

Yeah, for Sikhs it's about the Khalsa Panth. For Punjabis it is about (authentic) Bhangra dancing and colorful clothes. However, free food is not a Vaisakhi/Punjabi tradition, it's a Sikh tradition of Langar.

Why would you denigrate the Sikh institution of Langar?

Free food is not handed out at (inauthentic) Bhangra parties. It's handed out at Nagar Kirtans to the Sangat (or non-Sikhs, too).

Langar isn't free food - it's grown/bought then cooked. Doesn't any of that cost?

5 hours ago, BhForce said:

So generous of you to offer a place to Punjabis in the Sikh Panth, who are, of course, the very folks (our forefathers) who suffered all the depraved invasions, killings, tortures, thefts, and rapes of the jihadis.

Don't forget the british - their psychological warfare caused just as much destruction to our faith, land and people.

5 hours ago, BhForce said:

When you say "Punjabis" do you mean to say "Sikhs who aren't as hardcore as you because they're not Amritdhari"? Before you go down that road, I would remind you that that there are Sikhs who are more hardcore than you. Maybe @ipledgeblue wears a blue chola and 3 ft kirpan, and could say you're not a Sikh. (I'm not saying he would say that, just that he could. So think before you start calling people non-Sikhs.)

What do you mean by 'hardcore'? More committed, stronger or better-practicing in their faith? The word could be easily mistaken as fanatical or extremist.

5 hours ago, BhForce said:

It's just stupendous that you would read Sikhs out of our religion just because they're not as knowledgeable as you.

Sikhi is a way of life. 'Religion' is what goreh would've used to label different faiths during their violent invasions.

6 hours ago, BhForce said:

This is another reason the definition of a Sikh by SGPC (yeah, hate on) is so good: It doesn't say you have to have Japji Sahib memorized to be a Sikh. It doesn't say you have to be kesadhari, or amritdhari to be a Sikh. It simply states you have to have faith in Akal Purakh, the 10 Gurus, their bani, Guru Granth Sahib, and the 10th Guru's Amrit, which is what all those people that you denigrate as mere "Punjabis" have faith in.

All of them? Do you personally know each person and their beliefs? Not everyone who attends will even believe in the existence of Akal Purakh let alone what you've mentioned.

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8 hours ago, BhForce said:

Do you sitting in the 21st century know better the Bhai Gurdas ji who references the traditional date of Kattak Puranmashi?

In Bhai Gurdaas Ji's First Vaar, he says:

Quote

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਮਿਟੀ ਧੁੰਧੁ ਜਗਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਆ॥
With the emergence of the True Guru Nanak, the mist cleared and the light scattered all around.


ਜਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਨਿਕਲਿਆ ਤਾਰੇ ਛਪੇ ਅੰਧੇਰੁ ਪਲੋਆ॥
As if at the sun rise the stars disappeared and the darkness dispelled.


ਸਿੰਘ ਬੁਕੇ ਮਿਰਗਾਵਲੀ ਭੰਨੀ ਜਾਇ ਨ ਧੀਰਿ ਧਰੋਆ॥
With the roar of the lion in the forest the flocks of escaping deer now cannot have endurance.


ਜਿਥੈ ਬਾਬਾ ਪੈਰ ਧਰੈ ਪੂਜਾ ਆਸਣੁ ਥਾਪਣਿ ਸੋਆ॥
Wherever Baba put his feet, a religious place was erected and established.


ਸਿਧ ਆਸਣਿ ਸਭਿ ਜਗਤ ਦੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਆਦਿ ਮਤੇ ਜੇ ਕੋਆ॥
All the siddh-places now have been renamed on the name of Nanak.


ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਧਰਮਸਾਲ ਹੋਵੈ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਸੋਆ॥
Every home has become a place of dharma where singing.


ਬਾਬੇ ਤਾਰੇ ਚਾਰਿ ਚਕਿ ਨਉਖੰਡਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੀ ਸਚਾ ਢੋਆ॥
Baba liberated all four directions and nine divisions of earth.


ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਕਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਆ ॥੨੭॥
Gurmukh (Guru Nanak) has emerged in this Kalyug, the dark age.(27)

Bhai Gurdaas Ji says ਵਿਸੋਆ (Vaisakhi). This can be taken as the Parkash of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji. This also makes sense as Bhai Gurdaas Ji is talking the topic of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji being Pargat (ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ).

If you had read the document linked, it was also Pooranmashi on that day (1 Vaisakh, 1526 BK).

In Bhai Gurdaas Ji's Kabit Swaiye, he says:

Quote

ਕਾਰਤਕ ਮਾਸ ਰੁਤਿ ਸਰਦ ਪੂਰਨਮਾਸੀ ਆਠ ਜਾਮ ਸਾਠ ਘਰੀ ਆਜ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਾਰੀ ਹੈ ॥
It is the month of Karlik, and winter season with full moon night. In these eight watches, here is your chance to meet your beloved at any time.


ਅਉਸਰ ਅਭੀਚ ਬਹੁ ਨਾਇਕ ਕੀ ਨਾਇਕਾ ਹੁਇ ਰੂਪ ਗੁਨ ਜੋਬਨ ਸਿੰਗਾਰ ਅਧਿਕਾਰੀ ਹੈ ॥
Therefore, you too be the rightful person to meet the beloved Lord of myriad other female-like seekers, with your loving devotion, love, worship like beauty and adornment of youthful virtues on this auspicious moment of star configuration.


ਚਾਤਿਰ ਚਤੁਰ ਪਾਠ ਸੇਵਕ ਸਹੇਲੀ ਸਾਠਿ ਸੰਪਦਾ ਸਮਗ੍ਰੀ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਚਾਰੀ ਹੈ ॥
You are alert and adept in Naam Simran, the sixty main veins of your body are your friends and in your obedience, and you are the possessor of equipoise, beauteous treasure and other items of great value.


ਸੁੰਦਰ ਮੰਦਰ ਸੁਭ ਲਗਨ ਸੰਜੋਗ ਭੋਗ ਜੀਵਨ ਜਨਮ ਧੰਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਪਿਆਰੀ ਹੈ ॥੩੪੫॥
In this auspicious occasion, acquiring the union of the temple-like body with the beloved Lord on the nuptial bed of the heart will make your human birth and life a blessed one. And thus you become the beloved of your dear and loving husband (God). (345)

How can Bhai Gurdaas Ji go agaisnt himself?

Personally, I still celebrate on Katak Pooranmashi due to the Panth's Decision, but I do believe that it can be possible that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaaj could have been Parkash on Vaisakhi.

Edited by FreshMind13
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4 hours ago, GuestSingh said:

Langar isn't free food - it's grown/bought then cooked. Doesn't any of that cost?

Thanks for replying. The point is, it's free to the eater. Anyway, "free food" is the term he used, so I went with it. Langar is the term we would use.

Yeah, it does cost, but why would you bring that up? The traditional Sikh teaching is to not worry about the cost, just do voluntary service (seva), and Guru will take care of the rest.

4 hours ago, GuestSingh said:

Don't forget the british - their psychological warfare caused just as much destruction to our faith, land and people.

Agreed.

4 hours ago, GuestSingh said:

What do you mean by 'hardcore'? More committed, stronger or better-practicing in their faith?

Yes, that's what I meant. In this context, I did not mean "a person who commits violence on non-practitioners".

However, even with the first meaning, if @TheeTurbanator is a better-practicing Sikh, or even the best practicing Sikh in the world, it doesn't given him the right to call less-practicing Sikhs mere "Punjabis" and read them out of the faith.

4 hours ago, GuestSingh said:

Sikhi is a way of life. 'Religion' is what goreh would've used to label different faiths during their violent invasions.

Whatever, man. Call it dharam or mazhab if it pleases you. My point is it's not his right to read people out of our faith/religion/way of life/dharam/mazhab if they are looser in their practice of it than him.

4 hours ago, GuestSingh said:

All of them? Do you personally know each person and their beliefs? Not everyone who attends will even believe in the existence of Akal Purakh let alone what you've mentioned.

Why would an atheist attend a nagar kirtan? Do you think the members of the Tarksheel Society ("rationalist" society) attend nagar kirtans?

When I used the term "all" I said all the people he's denigrating, not all the people who might be in the vicinity of a nagar kirtan. He's seemingly using the term "Punjabi" to mean "Sikhs who aren't as hardcore as I am".

Yes, I do believe the vast majority of nagar kirtan attendees believe in Akal Purakh and our Gurus, and their bani, even if they don't recite it every day. What does it matter if there are a few non-Sikh bystanders?

All I'm saying is don't label people who don't have Jaap Sahib and Sukhmani Sahib memorized, and also do Asa di Vaar kirtan from memory as non-Sikhs. Why is this controversial?

He wrote a big old divisive essay denigrating loose Sikhs as non-Sikhs and denigrating our culture when he could have just written an inclusive and unifying paragraphs calling for banning non-religious music at nagar kirtans.

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13 hours ago, BhForce said:

What? You mean to say people stopped celebrating Vaisakhi after Guru Sahib created the Khalsa? No, they simply did not.

I literally never said that, I have no idea how you manage to misrepresent my views when in the text that you quoted me in it literally said:

"The celebration of Vaisakhi predates Sikhi itself, however after the formalization of the Khalsa in 1699 it was mainly celebrated as a religious event for Sikhs

 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

Do you sitting in the 21st century know better the Bhai Gurdas ji who references the traditional date of Kattak Puranmashi?

On 4/17/2018 at 4:07 PM, TheeTurbanator said:

Not going to waste my time getting into a historical debate with you, the same guy who said:

"So far as a analysis of textual differences of many different saroops conducted by an advisor to Jathedar Joginder Singh Vedanti found, there are minor vowel differences in a few places. There are no major differences (word differences)"
 

LoL 

 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

Used to be? It is a harvest festival (present tense).

On 4/17/2018 at 4:07 PM, TheeTurbanator said:

Semantics 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

The day was used by Guru Sahib. It was not "transformed" or banned, because there was no need for banning. Punjabis didn't worship idols on Vaisakhi, they merely celebrated the harvest.

On 4/17/2018 at 4:07 PM, TheeTurbanator said:

Vaisakhi was transformed and given a Dharmic significance for Sikhs by the Guru, this is a fact. I literally never said it was banned. 

 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

Devolved? Why do you feel a need to use that word? There's simply nothing wrong with celebrating the harvest.

On 4/17/2018 at 4:07 PM, TheeTurbanator said:

There's nothing wrong with celebrating a harvest, whats wrong is when Sikhs celebrate a harvest festival over their own Dharmic Vaisakhi, which is the issue today. 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

Why would you denigrate the Sikh institution of Langar?

 

You stoop to lower and lower levels every time. Now your accusing me of denigrating Langar. I hope you realize that there is a differance between "free food" and the Sikh concept of "Langar". 

 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

Another culture?! It's out culture, man. Guru Sahib chose this day.

On 4/17/2018 at 4:07 PM, TheeTurbanator said:

Punjabi culture is not Sikh culture, only SIKH CULTURE IS SIKH CULTURE. The Guru over a 200+ year period created a unique Sikh culture. 

 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

Are you really serious? You propose to remove every little bit of Punjabi culture from the Sikh panth? 

 

We need to separate Punjabi culture from Sikhi, and discourage Punjabi culture when showing or talking about Sikhi. We need to promote Sikh culture instead of Punjabi culture. 

 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

Since about the time of the 6th Guru, farmers constitute the largest single group in the Sikh Panth. I can't say if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it is reality.

 

Were not talking about the 6th Guru, were talking about right now, didnt you read what I wrote? Why are you confusing time periods? 

 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

OK, so what's the problem? All Sikhs celebrate the celebration of the Khalsa on Vaisakhi. And a great number of Sikhs celebrate the harvest. What are we arguing about?

On 4/17/2018 at 4:07 PM, TheeTurbanator said:

Are you living under a rock or something? The Punjabi aspect of Vaisakhi has overshadowed the Dharmic aspect for Sikhs, anyone who has common sense can see this, but you are so much about defending your hillbilly Punjabi farmer culture that you undermine Sikh culture. 

 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

Spoken like you're not a Punjabi yourself.

Im not Punjabi, you dont know me, dont assume my culture. 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

So generous of you to offer a place to Punjabis in the Sikh Panth, who are, of course, the very folks (our forefathers) who suffered all the depraved invasions, killings, tortures, thefts, and rapes of the jihadis.

 

Our forefathers are not Punjabi, they are Sikh. You confuse Punjabi culture with Sikh culture yet again. Your precious Punjabi culture would be destroyed if it wasn't for Sikhi, just remember that. 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

When you say "Punjabis" do you mean to say "Sikhs who aren't as hardcore as you because they're not Amritdhari"?

Where would you get that idea from? Furthermore, being "Amritdhari" by itself doesn't mean much, and certainly doesn't make one "hardcore". 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

It's just stupendous that you would read Sikhs out of our religion just because they're not as knowledgeable as you.

 

What are you even talking about? After all these misrepresentations of my views, I cant tell if you are you malicious or genuinely concomitant. 

 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

It doesn't say you have to be kesadhari, or amritdhari to be a Sikh. It simply states you have to have faith in Akal Purakh, the 10 Gurus, their bani, Guru Granth Sahib, and the 10th Guru's Amrit, which is what all those people that you denigrate as mere "Punjabis" have faith in.

Are you ok? I think you need some help becuase you dont know how to process information properly. You are constantly misrepresenting my views. 

 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

You could have just led with that, bro, instead of a whole long essay denigrating our culture and heritage. Who in his right mind would disagree with the above statement?

 

I dont know what kind of "relgion" you follow, but its pretty obvious that the Punjabi community and culture is ruining Sikhi. 

 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

In any case, non-religious music is not allowed at any nagar kirtan that I've seen. The few straggler Gurdwaras should get their act together.

On 4/17/2018 at 4:07 PM, TheeTurbanator said:

You clearly haven't been to many nagar kirtans... 

 

13 hours ago, BhForce said:

No, we must preach against the bad elements of Punjabi culture (such as girl-killing), and also demonstrate Sikhi's superiority over other religions while also demonstrating Punjabi culture's superiority over other cultures.

 

If people want to practice their Punjabi culture, they are free to do so, all I say is that we dont mix Punjabi culture with Sikh culture, becuase they arent the same.  

Also, Punjabi culture is not superior over other cultures, its funny how you say this while most likely living in the west and typing in English, lol

Edited by TheeTurbanator

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On 4/17/2018 at 6:07 PM, TheeTurbanator said:

Punjabi culture is like a double edged sword, it promotes anti-sikh practices, however it also promotes pride & bravery to defend ones way of life. When things get serious, Punjabi's are often the first one to go fight on the frontlines. During 1984 many non Amritdhari Punjabis, who were otherwise never religious and would never wake up for Amritvela, joined the fight and died fighting in defense of Harmandir Sahib. The thing about Punjabi's is that they are always ready to die for the Panth, but aren't willing to live for the Panth. I feel like Punjabis have a place in the Sikh community becuase without them we wouldn't get very far. We need to take the good things about Punjabi culture and leave the bad, this is why I dont feel like Punjabis are a lost cause and are worth doing Parchaar to.

 

 

I don't know about Punjabi being brave and willing to defend. I think that's a misconception spread by Punjabi themselves. In the history of Punjab, the Punjabi people have only stood up to invaders a few times, and the only time it was effective was when those Punjabi were Sikh. The only effective outcome of Punjabi engaging in war has been when Sikhi took place and Sikhs were fighting. If you look at the history of Punjab before Sikhi you will see a very cowardice history for the most part. 

Sikhi made Punjabi into brave, willing warriors and defenders, its not the other way around.

But I can attest that all Punjabi are boastful and prideful to a fault, including myself. 

Edited by TejS
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21 hours ago, BhForce said:

. Maybe @ipledgeblue wears a blue chola and 3 ft kirpan, and could say you're not a Sikh. (I'm not saying he would say that, just that he could. So think before you start calling people non-Sikhs.)

loll I really want to wear a chola. I also hate wearing ties and blazers. I try and wear mini hazooria often. Still learning my dumalla, my turban is still anglicised.

my sangat and relatives is punjabis, but I would say if they actually followed more punjabi culture it wouldn't harm following sikhi so much as it seems.

it's the drunk and uneducated culture that's the harmful stuff, the village <banned word filter activated> mentality.

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20 hours ago, BhForce said:

However, even with the first meaning, if @TheeTurbanator is a better-practicing Sikh, or even the best practicing Sikh in the world, it doesn't given him the right to call less-practicing Sikhs mere "Punjabis" and read them out of the faith.

My point is it's not his right to read people out of our faith/religion/way of life/dharam/mazhab if they are looser in their practice of it than him.

Well we shouldn't discriminate against our own - we all share something in common.

Better to help others how we've been helped - we've all started somewhere - rather than risk losing even more generations.

Think this all depends on how you personally define one based on your understanding, knowledge, experiences and emotions etc. that you attach to it.

Couldn't agree more with you that some, even if a little, Panjabi culture is part of Sikhi that was practiced by our Gurus and great Gursikh men and women.

We only talk about the bad stuff but certain morals/values/ethics (as we see in good folk), importance of family, language and traditional food, clothing and music e.g. poetry, are all part of Panjabi culture too and believe all would've influenced the Gurus and great Gursikhs in identity, thinking, speech and behaviour as opposed to western thinking which actually takes us away from living a similar lifestyle.

Yes, we should adapt to stay relevant to the world but don't forget where you come from - a tree without roots is dead and empty on the inside.

20 hours ago, BhForce said:

Why would an atheist attend a nagar kirtan? Do you think the members of the Tarksheel Society ("rationalist" society) attend nagar kirtans?

The experience? The 'free food'? The free funfair rides afterwards? It's a free day out for some and they'll take what they can get, especially if poor and uneducated about us. Don't be naive in thinking otherwise.

A nagar kirtan has now become so  liberalised to the point where a non-practicing apni openly holds hands with a whitey (probably atheist) and just talk in front of Guru ji and no one did anything. Never seen or heard of anyone ever doing that but it's just more proof of the decline how some couldn't care less about what the day means and are just there to prove a point, show how liberal they are and, like a parrot, repeat the same-old catchphrases "We live in a multi-cultural society, this is the 21st century, God is one, we do what we want, etc." Think this was in southampton last year. No shame.

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WAIT! Guru Nanak's prakash (birth) wasn't 13 November?? MAAAANZ looks like every single Sikh get Nagar Keertan underway in Nov/ Oct time AND Nishaan Sahib seva on 13 November for "wrong" reasons!

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6 hours ago, Singh1989 said:

WAIT! Guru Nanak's prakash (birth) wasn't 13 November?? MAAAANZ looks like every single Sikh get Nagar Keertan underway in Nov/ Oct time AND Nishaan Sahib seva on 13 November for "wrong" reasons!

Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Parkash is disputed between 3 Dates

Friday, Katak Sudi 15 Pooranmashi, 1526 Bikrami (Lunar)

Saturday, Vaisakh Sudi 3, 1526 Bikrami (Lunar) (Not Pooranmashi)

Monday, 1 Vaisakh, 1526 Bikrami (Solar Date) (Pooranmashi)

There is debate on this issue, I recommend reading the document mentioned in the OP.

Also PLS, Benti for everyone, when referring to Gurpuabs, pls use Bikrami or Mool Nanakshahi (Which are basically Bikrami dates) dates, don't use English dates as they are not accurate as the original.

We need more people to start using Desi Months and days, Barah Maha Parro!

Edited by FreshMind13
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