More proof marriages between white men and punjabi women often end in disasters

[Ranjeet01]

29 minutes ago, californiasardar1 said:

This is one thing that makes these forums so frustrating.

 

There is this growing obsession with nominally Sikh people "marrying out".  Why is everyone so concerned with what these people are doing after they have gone probably their entire lives with no connection to Sikhi?  They are supposed to suddenly care about Sikhi when it comes time to find a partner?  And even if they did find a nominally Sikh partner, they would raise hair-cutting, liquor-drinking, partying children who know nothing about Sikhi, so what difference would it make?

 

 

If you people are really concerned with interfaith weddings and Sikhs "marrying out", the real solution isn't showing up at Gurdwaras to protest interfaith anand karajs, or pointing to some fringe matrimonial website that is used by about 7 people.  The solution is connecting children with Sikhi from a young age so that an interfaith marriage is not something that they would entertain in the first place.

 

 

What you are saying is correct in an idealist sense but we have to face reality.

The underlying current amongst our sangat is that even a "nominal " Sikh who cuts hair/smokes/drinks should have some loyalty to the Panth. 

A smoking /drinking non practising  person of Sikh background marrying another smoking/drinking non practising person of Sikh background is still better than a Sikh marrying out of the faith.

In the UK, our Gurdwaras have their matromonial services. 

I remember many years ago going to the Southall Havelock Gurdwara to register a relative to their services. 

You have to fill in one of these application forms and I remember filling in one of these forms and it has asked whether the person drank.

I asked this question to one of the girls at the counter and she told me "it's best to be honest with these things".

There does need to be a sense of pragmatism unfortunately in these matters.

 

[StarStriker]

57 minutes ago, californiasardar1 said:

 

 

And what makes you think that a hair-cutting, pub-frequenting nominally Sikh girl (like 99% of "Sikh" girls, including the one who is being discussed in this thread) will have any interest whatsoever in a website like the one you linked?

That website probably appeals to about 20 people in the UK, 20 in Canada, and 5 in the USA.

listen u loudmouth easily angered mug, bigtera said "We Sikhs in the uk SHOULD CREATE a matrimonial service. A one stop website where Sikhs can find a marriage partner. "

So i gave a link to that page, end of arguement! I never said anything about whether it was a great site, or appealing, or whatever. 

[Ranjeet01]

11 hours ago, TejS said:

I guess you're right that women will do what they think is best for them. But there are of course factors that play into for what a woman determines to be her right partner.

It could have to do with the fact that by living and raising our children in the Western world, in countries such as Canada, America, UK, Australia, the people in power, the dominant individuals are all "white men". They're the bighshots per se and so it perpetuates an image of white men being higher on the social ladder and women are naturally/biologically drawn to whoever represents power to "better" their progeny. Perhaps if we had more Sikh men in power in the Western world, that would help in perpetuating the image of dominance and so our women would not need to seek out white men for example.

If there were opportunities for white guys in the west to come to Punjab for marriage, those girls in Punjab would be lining up for miles.

I think is a larger issue at hand than just being in the west though I think there are some things we have to face up to.

The longer we are in the west, the more we are going to have a lot more in common with the goreh.

A third-generation or fourth-generation Sikh in the UK is going to have a lot more in common with a gorah than a Sikh who has come from Punjab. 

We go to school with goreh, we are brought largely in the mainstream culture, we will have the same interests,  we go to the same places for holidays/vacation, we even support the same football teams.  There is going to be a lot more to relate to.

[BhForce]

57 minutes ago, californiasardar1 said:

There is this growing obsession with nominally Sikh people "marrying out".  Why is everyone so concerned with what these people are doing after they have gone probably their entire lives with no connection to Sikhi? 

Bro, it's because people don't want our kaum to die. If, after agreeing that quantity does matter, how can you say the above?

58 minutes ago, californiasardar1 said:

The solution is connecting children with Sikhi from a young age so that an interfaith marriage is not something that they would entertain in the first place.

Totally agreed. 

But should only kids who have been doing the whole Sikh thing (kirtan, tabla, gatka, santhia, bana, so on) remain in the Sikh panth?

We should just be OK with the rest drifting into oblivion?

1 hour ago, californiasardar1 said:

And even if they did find a nominally Sikh partner, they would raise hair-cutting, liquor-drinking, partying children who know nothing about Sikhi, so what difference would it make?

I think you dismiss "papis" (sinners) too quickly. These drinking monas, if you sit down and talk with them, also have a love for Guru Sahib. Maybe you'll say if they really loved Guru ji, they'd follow their Hukum. Which is true.

But why give up on them entirely?

Keep them in the orbit, so we can then reach them as necessary. If you watch the Sikh Awareness Society videos, there are many monas there. Some of them may drink. But I don't care, because they do have some level of feeling for our panth and its daughters, even if they don't have Jaap Sahib memorized.

And when you say the solution is to "connect with children from a young age": How do you propose that "we" (informed Sikhs) will get access to people's children? If the parents are already practicing, well-informed Amritdhari Sikhs, then problem already solved. By definition, the kids you want to target are those of the non-practicing Sikhs. I.e., the monas you disparage.

What I'm saying is keep the drinking monas in the Sikh orbit, so then when they have kids, and are a bit more conservative (everybody settles down when they have kids and they start thinking about teaching the kid morality), then we can swoop down and offer our "services" (free kirtan class or whatever).

And another thing: Nobody's saying that a drinking moni should marry a teetotalling Singh. Rather, marry at your same level of Sikhi.

[BhForce]

33 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

A smoking /drinking non practising  person of Sikh background marrying another smoking/drinking non practising person of Sikh background is still better than a Sikh marrying out of the faith.

Exactly.

I've liked your post.

A "papi" Sikh marrying a "papi" (sinner) Sikh will give birth to a Sikh child who will have some or another level of exposure to Sikh culture, gurdwaras, parchar, etc.

He won't be born with a 4ft khanda in his hand (lol), but the point is he'll know that "my religion is Sikhism". Then, when the mood strikes him, he can go out researching our faith, and he can adopt whatever level he is able to. Maybe he'll desist from drugs. Maybe he'll stop cutting his hair. Maybe he'll start doing Japji Sahib. Maybe he'll start doing full Nitnem. And maybe he'll take Amrit.

Whatever level he chooses, I don't care. At least he doesn't become a jihadi or a Christian.

[TejS]

1 hour ago, Ranjeet01 said:

If there were opportunities for white guys in the west to come to Punjab for marriage, those girls in Punjab would be lining up for miles.

Is that because of the lifestyle that a white man will provide them or is it because of attraction?

[Ranjeet01]

40 minutes ago, TejS said:

Is that because of the lifestyle that a white man will provide them or is it because of attraction?

Both.

Our people love fair skin, you can't get fairer than a white guy unless it's an albino. 

[puzzled]

That's sad though! mentally she must of been in a very dark place to do that to herself! 

[californiasardar1]

1 hour ago, BhForce said:

Exactly.

I've liked your post.

A "papi" Sikh marrying a "papi" (sinner) Sikh will give birth to a Sikh child who will have some or another level of exposure to Sikh culture, gurdwaras, parchar, etc.

He won't be born with a 4ft khanda in his hand (lol), but the point is he'll know that "my religion is Sikhism". Then, when the mood strikes him, he can go out researching our faith, and he can adopt whatever level he is able to. Maybe he'll desist from drugs. Maybe he'll stop cutting his hair. Maybe he'll start doing Japji Sahib. Maybe he'll start doing full Nitnem. And maybe he'll take Amrit.

Whatever level he chooses, I don't care. At least he doesn't become a jihadi or a Christian.

 

Okay.  If you guys feel that way, fair enough.  Maybe any nominal identification with Sikhi is better than nothing.

 

But then here is my question: how do you propose to get nominal Sikhs who don't care about Sikhi to still prioritize marrying nominal Sikhs? 

I suppose that connecting children with Punjabi culture (even the bastardized pseudo-Punjabi culture, such as bhangra music) could have some value here. 

Whatever you guys think should be done, SOMETHING needs to be done.  People are slaves to convenience.  Considering how small our community is, there needs to be some sort of draw for young "Sikhs" to seek each other out (whether it is rooted in Sikhi or some secular "cultural" stuff).  Otherwise, why will anyone go out of their way when there are non-Sikhs everywhere you look?

[MisterrSingh]

7 minutes ago, californiasardar1 said:

Whatever you guys think should be done, SOMETHING needs to be done.  People are slaves to convenience.  Considering how small our community is, there needs to be some sort of draw for young "Sikhs" to seek each other out (whether it is rooted in Sikhi or some secular "cultural" stuff).  Otherwise, why will anyone go out of their way when there are non-Sikhs everywhere you look?

A very small part of rectifying the issue you're describing is striking back against the mainly erroneous and lazy idea that Punjabi culture, from an intellectual perspective, has nothing to offer the younger generations. There needs to be some form of movement -- dare I say with some distance from the binary orthodoxy of organised religion -- that encourages them to connect to certain wonderful parts of our heritage, even if they aren't interested in the coarse, occasionally mindlessly one dimensional aspects of it, which is a flimsy argument to begin with when considering some of the debased and shallow practices in western culture that our lot seem to be in awe of for various reasons. Some of this stems from a chronic insecurity on our part of being seen to be going "backwards" instead of embracing the possibilities inherent in the entirety of our host culture. Again, this feeds into my theory of contemporary Sikhs being crippled by a desire to be seen to be objective and fair (stemming from the egalitarian teachings of Sikhi), but which results in us shooting ourselves in the foot by turning against the very things we should be championing and preserving, because if we don't then who else is going to?