Considering the fact that Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Eternal Guru to all Sikhs, why is the Dasam Granth debated?

[TejS]

I've read on this forum and have met certain people in real life claim that the Dasam Granth should be placed in Gurudwaras and teachings from it should be used in life. Although I can argue that many concepts and teachings are already practiced from the Dasam Granth such as Khalsa being the most notable, as well as certain Ardas being found in the Granth, my question is really about the debate for the consideration of the Dasam Granth. If the decision has been made by Guru Saheb himself, then why are people challenging it? I mean if the teachings in the Dasam Granth were meant to apply to Sikhs for eternity, then Guru Saheb could have himself added them into the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, however he chose not to and did not give the Gurgaddi to the Dasam Granth either. So, if I'm not being ignorant, people should not be seeking the Dasam Granth for knowledge, when, as per the Guru, the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the be-all and end-all. If, however, I am missing some crucial information and knowledge, please explain and discuss.

[GurjantGnostic]

 

[BhForce]

It's amazing that you would be questioning the Dasam Granth Sahib while having a picture of a hardcore, puratan Nihung Singh as your avatar.

3 hours ago, TejS said:

If, however, I am missing some crucial information and knowledge, please explain and discuss.

If you had made a flat out statement disrespecting the Dasam Granth Sahib, you would  have gotten an angry response. But since you asked humbly, as above, you'll get level-headed responses from me and others. You're just asking a question, I get it.

3 hours ago, TejS said:

I've read on this forum and have met certain people in real life claim that the Dasam Granth should be placed in Gurudwaras and teachings from it should be used in life.

The questions of the authenticity of the Dasam Granth Sahib, and how/if it should be parkashed in Gurdwaras are separate. Among other things, the Dasam Granth Sahib isn't parkashed on the same level of Palki at Hazur Sahib, it is lower. But let's just leave that aside, and focus on the main point, which is whether we should use teachings from it in life.

The answer is yes, absolutely yes. Now, if we're 100% certain that the Dasam Granth Sahib was written, by say Ahmed Shah Abdali or by Lord Dalhousie, then, fine, we shouldn't use it. But since it's our Guru's, why would we not use it?

Did Guru Sahib just write it for the sake of it? As a pure waste of time?

3 hours ago, TejS said:

Although I can argue that many concepts and teachings are already practiced from the Dasam Granth such as Khalsa being the most notable, as well as certain Ardas being found in the Granth,

OK, so your question partially answers itself. Without the Dasam Granth Sahib, we don't have Ardas as we know it. Also 3 of the banis for preparing Khande bate da Amrit are from Dasam Granth Sahib, so get rid of that, you get rid of Amrit, which gets rid of the Khalsa Panth. No 1984s needed, just destroyed the Sikhs with one clean stroke.

3 hours ago, TejS said:

If the decision has been made by Guru Saheb himself, then why are people challenging it?

And what decision is that, bro? The decision to make the Granth Sahib into Guru Granth Sahib? Where did you read that Guru Gobind Singh ji made that decision? Oh, in Sikh history, you say? Well, OK, the same Sikh history and sources that say Guru Gobind Singh ji gave Guruship to Guru Granth Sahib also state that Guru ji composed their own granth (Dasam Granth). If  you accept one, you accept the other.

I really hope you don't fall into the trap of the radical missionaries who say that they won't accept anything outside of Guru Granth Sahib. If so, then how do they even accept Guru Granth Sahib's Guruship? The entire sakhi of the Guruship is outside Guru Granth Sahib.

The long game, the long con, which only a few Singhs understand, is that people are trying to get us to deny anything outside of Guru Granth Sahib (i.e., Dasam Granth). Once we do that, the logic will inescapably take us to ultimately deny Guru Granth Sahib (again, because the proof of Guru ji's authenticity is outside of Guru Granth Sahib).

3 hours ago, TejS said:

I mean if the teachings in the Dasam Granth were meant to apply to Sikhs for eternity, then Guru Saheb could have himself added them into the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, however he chose not to and did not give the Gurgaddi to the Dasam Granth either.

Yeah, Guru Gobind Singh ji could have, but so? Guru Granth Sahib is already 1430 pages long. Why do you think Guru Sahib should have been obligated to create a huge 3000 page granth? That's Guru Sahib's decision, not ours.

Secondly, I don't know if you've ever read Guru Granth Sahib or Dasam Granth Sahib, but the two are like very different from each other. How would it make sense to "add" one to the other? They are separate works, with separate styles. Do you think the artist Michelangelo should have "added" the sculpture Crucifix to the fresco The Last Judgement? 

 

 

Oh, what's that you say? The one is a sculpture, and the other a fresco, different styles, makes no sense to combine them? Exactly.

Guru Granth Sahib is a font of spirituality. The Dasam Granth Sahib is a source of temporality. (miri). It also describes the old avatars to show they were lower than God, but always in a martial tone. 

Why would Guru Sahib ever want to mix the two into one Granth?

3 hours ago, TejS said:

however he chose not to and did not give the Gurgaddi to the Dasam Granth either.

Sikh sources state that Sikhs asked Guru Sahib to "add" their bani to the Granth Sahib, but Guru ji said, No, that is the Guru, this (Dasam bani) is my leela (play).

3 hours ago, TejS said:

So, if I'm not being ignorant, people should not be seeking the Dasam Granth for knowledge, when, as per the Guru, the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the be-all and end-all.

You are being ignorant, bro.

Why in the world would you say that if something is not in Guru Granth Sahib, we shouldn't seek knowledge from it?

Is your calculus textbook contained within Guru Granth Sahib? Do you seek knowledge from it?

Let's not be like the Muslims, who when confronted with the world-famous library of Alexandria, said that if something is outside the Koran, it's superfluous, so just burn it all down.

Not to mention other sources of Sikhi like Bhai Gurdas ji's Vaars and Kabitt's and Bhai Nand Lal ji's bani. Are you also against seeking knowledge from them? If so, rabb mehar kare. If not, it would be strange that you're OK with accepting a Sikh's bani, but not the Gurus!

Finally, at the time (during 99% of Guru's history) when Guru Granth Sahib did not have Guruship, did Sikhs "seek knowledge" from the Granth Sahib? Yes, because it contained knowledge, even though it didn't have Guruship. Same for Dasam Granth Sahib now.

The point of saying Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru is to say that we have to follow and accpet everything Guru Granth Sahib ji says, not that we can have knowledge from only Guru Granth Sahib.

[Guest Maa Durga]

 

[TejS]

On 5/14/2018 at 12:43 AM, BhForce said:

It's amazing that you would be questioning the Dasam Granth Sahib while having a picture of a hardcore, puratan Nihung Singh as your avatar.

I respect the warrior tradition of Nihangs, thus the picture.

Quote

OK, so your question partially answers itself. Without the Dasam Granth Sahib, we don't have Ardas as we know it. Also 3 of the banis for preparing Khande bate da Amrit are from Dasam Granth Sahib, so get rid of that, you get rid of Amrit, which gets rid of the Khalsa Panth. No 1984s needed, just destroyed the Sikhs with one clean stroke.

Well that's like claiming that the Sikh identity and ideology consists only of the Khalsa, which would be wrong because Sikhi is far more than that. I think this is a problem with our people because in our struggles, we have inadvertently focused on our physical identity rather than focus on spirituality. 

Quote

And what decision is that, bro? The decision to make the Granth Sahib into Guru Granth Sahib? Where did you read that Guru Gobind Singh ji made that decision? Oh, in Sikh history, you say? Well, OK, the same Sikh history and sources that say Guru Gobind Singh ji gave Guruship to Guru Granth Sahib also state that Guru ji composed their own granth (Dasam Granth). If  you accept one, you accept the other.

Well the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is related to the Adi Granth and the Adi Granth had been formalized for the Sikhs by Guru Arjan Dev Ji before. So the elevation of the updated Adi Granth to the status of Guru does not raise any questions/concerns considering most of the text had already been accepted by Sikhs very early on.  I'm not questioning the authorship of the Dasam Granth; I'm simply asking in what esteem should Sikhs hold it in. So with that said, I accept both claims in Sikh history, but our history does not claim that the Dasam Granth was elevated to be our eternal Guru.

Quote

I really hope you don't fall into the trap of the radical missionaries who say that they won't accept anything outside of Guru Granth Sahib. If so, then how do they even accept Guru Granth Sahib's Guruship? The entire sakhi of the Guruship is outside Guru Granth Sahib.

These are my own thoughts and questions so I have no clue which radical missionaries are being mentioned here. But like I said considering that the Adi Granth dates back to Guru Arjan Dev Ji, it's safe to accept that it was destined to be our eternal Guru.

Quote

The long game, the long con, which only a few Singhs understand, is that people are trying to get us to deny anything outside of Guru Granth Sahib (i.e., Dasam Granth). Once we do that, the logic will inescapably take us to ultimately deny Guru Granth Sahib (again, because the proof of Guru ji's authenticity is outside of Guru Granth Sahib).

I don't see how that is. My question was not about authorship, however about the status we give to each text. Considering that Sikh history attests to the fact that the Gurgaddi was given to the Guru Granth Sahib and not the Dasam Granth explicitly renders any allegations against the Guru Granth Sahib as baseless.

Quote

Yeah, Guru Gobind Singh ji could have, but so? Guru Granth Sahib is already 1430 pages long. Why do you think Guru Sahib should have been obligated to create a huge 3000 page granth? That's Guru Sahib's decision, not ours.

I don't think that length would be a reason to leave out a crucial part of God's orders for Sikhs. The most logical thing to assume is that the teachings of the Dasam Granth are not meant to held at the same level of respect, guidance as the Guru Granth Sahib. Because both miri and piri are fundamental to Sikhs, and I think that the Guru Granth Sahib covers both things extremely well, it's not lacking in anything in my opinion. So if the Dasam Granth represented a vital part of Sikh tradition, it would have surely been elevated as Guru and if without it one could not be a true Sikh. 

Quote

Secondly, I don't know if you've ever read Guru Granth Sahib or Dasam Granth Sahib, but the two are like very different from each other. How would it make sense to "add" one to the other? They are separate works, with separate styles. Do you think the artist Michelangelo should have "added" the sculpture Crucifix to the fresco The Last Judgement? 

Oh, what's that you say? The one is a sculpture, and the other a fresco, different styles, makes no sense to combine them? Exactly.

Guru Granth Sahib is a font of spirituality. The Dasam Granth Sahib is a source of temporality. (miri). It also describes the old avatars to show they were lower than God, but always in a martial tone. 

I have partly read the Guru Granth Sahib and certain bani from the Dasam Granth and I agree that their nature/style is uniquely different. However, the point isn't about their differences or even similarities, it's what they stand for. And one clearly has been given the Gurgaddi while the other hasn't, and so there has to be a reason for doing so. If Dasam Granth was to be an eternal teacher/guide for Sikhs, then Guru Saheb could have elevated not one but two texts to Guruship, but he chose not to and so clearly there has to be a reason and distinction between the two. I disagree again that the Guru Granth Sahib lacks temporal teachings, it focuses on how to strike a balance between spiritual and temporal harmony.

Your analogy regarding Michelangelo's sculpture/fresco has no basis because those pieces of art aren't God's eternal order for humans. It's simply art, and so are you trying to imply that the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Dasam Granth are merely art? 

Quote

Sikh sources state that Sikhs asked Guru Sahib to "add" their bani to the Granth Sahib, but Guru ji said, No, that is the Guru, this (Dasam bani) is my leela (play).

Well there we have it, clearly he did not consider his play to act as a guide/teacher to Sikhs eternally. It reads like an autobiography and reflects the Guru's experiences in order to encourage the Khalsa into battle. Perhaps it was written solely for Sikhs engaging the battlefield. Perhaps the intended audience is not everyone and one can realize that given the nature of certain texts.

Quote

Why in the world would you say that if something is not in Guru Granth Sahib, we shouldn't seek knowledge from it?

I should have made it clearer that I meant religious knowledge when talking about knowledge on here.

Quote

Is your calculus textbook contained within Guru Granth Sahib? Do you seek knowledge from it?

My calculus book is firstly not a religious scripture from which I obtain religious knowledge. It only provides me temporal knowledge.

Quote

Let's not be like the Muslims, who when confronted with the world-famous library of Alexandria, said that if something is outside the Koran, it's superfluous, so just burn it all down.

Muslims borrowed heavily from the Ancient Greek writers during the Islamic Golden Age. So I don't know where you are getting that from. But they never allow other practices to influence their central religious text, which is admirable.

Quote

Not to mention other sources of Sikhi like Bhai Gurdas ji's Vaars and Kabitt's and Bhai Nand Lal ji's bani. Are you also against seeking knowledge from them? If so, rabb mehar kare. If not, it would be strange that you're OK with accepting a Sikh's bani, but not the Gurus!

No I am not, and I have never mentioned this. But there's a difference between knowledge that you get from a Guru and that from not a Guru. 

Quote

Finally, at the time (during 99% of Guru's history) when Guru Granth Sahib did not have Guruship, did Sikhs "seek knowledge" from the Granth Sahib? Yes, because it contained knowledge, even though it didn't have Guruship. Same for Dasam Granth Sahib now.

It was for this reason and the fact that people were asserting baseless claims regarding the Guru's teachings that Guru Arjan Dev Ji formalized the Adi Granth. So it was sanctioned by the Gurus. It's not like people compounded their spiritual knowledge with Adi Granth simply because they felt like it.

Quote

The point of saying Guru Granth Sahib is our Guru is to say that we have to follow and accpet everything Guru Granth Sahib ji says, not that we can have knowledge from only Guru Granth Sahib.

But you're religious knowledge and conduct should ONLY be taken from the Guru Granth Sahib. By your logic we should then be taking things from the Torah and the Quran and whatnot because it classifies as knowledge.

[GurjantGnostic]

5 hours ago, TejS said:

Well there we have it, clearly he did not consider his play to act as a guide/teacher to Sikhs eternally

I forget exactly what @BhForce said, but it was something along the lines of "Dasam Granth is written from the perspective of Miri" so it doesn't serve the same purpose as Guru Granth Sahib Ji, being the living Guru spiritually, but it is the Guru's Bani, serving as a reference as to how to live in Khel, as well as a stand alone reference for many Hinduvata topics, that are used in Gurbani. 

[TaksalDaSingh9771]

Some say that we should not take hukamnama from sri dasam. Well, when sri guru Arjun dev Ji ordered ‘granth sahib’ to be prakash, did they not take the hukam. Sources cite that the first hukam of granth sahib was “santa ke karaj aap khaloia”. Wouldn’t that mean that we can take hukam from sri dasam even though it does not have guruship. 

[Guest]

ਸੁਣੋ ਭਾਈ ਸਿਖੋ । ਐਸਾ ਸੰਤ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨੋ । ਦਸੇ ਮਹਲ ਇਕ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀ ਪਛਾਨੋ । 

Listen Sikh Brothers! Recognize Baba Nanak as a true Saint, this is truth. In the ten forms [10 Guru's], recognize Baba Nanak in all of them.

ਦਸਵਾਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਗੱਦੀ ਗੁਰਿਆਈ ਦੀ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਦੇ ਹੈ ਗਿਆ । 

The tenth King has given the Guruship to the Granth Sahib.

ਬਿਨਾਂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੇ, ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈਨਿ ਦੁਇ ਸਕੇ ਭਾਈ । 

Without the Granth there is nothing else, the Granth Sahib has it's form in two brothers.

ਇਕ ਹੈ ਵਡਾ ਇਕ ਛੋਟਾ ਕਹਾਈ ।੨੬੫। 

[Recognize] One as larger [brother, which is Adi Granth] and one as smaller [brother, Dasam Granth].

ਸੰਮਤੁ ਸੋਲ੍ਹਾ ਸੈ ਅਠਵੰਜਾ ਸੇ ਗਏ । ਤਬ ਆਦਿ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਲਏ । 

In 1658 Bikrami the Adi Granth took birth [was created].

ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨ ਜੀ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜਨਮੁ ਹੈ ਧਾਰਾ । 

In the house of Guru Arjan Dev Ji the Granth Sahib took its birth.

ਦਾਇਆ ਸੀ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ, ਲਿਖਾਰੀ ਖਿਡਾਵਣਹਾਰਾ ।੨੬੬। 

Bhai Gurdas, with the blessings [of Guru Arjan], was the scribe.

ਛੋਟਾ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜੀ, ਜਨਮੇ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ । 

The smaller [brother] Granth, took birth in the Tenth King's house.

ਸੰਮਤੁ ਸਤਾਰਾਂ ਸੈ ਪਚਵੰਜਾ, ਬਹੁਤ ਖਿਡਾਵੇ-ਲਿਖਾਰੇ ਨਾਮ । 

In 1755 Bikrami [it was born], [Guru Ji wrote it] under many names [Das Gobind, Syaam, Ram, Kaal etc].

ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਸੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ । ਹੱਥੀ ਲਿਖਿਆ, ਖਿਡਾਇਆ । 

[Guru Gobind Singh] Sahib had much love for this scripture, He himself hand wrote it.

ਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸੁ, ਜੀ ਅਗਲੇ ਨਾਲਿ ਚਾਹੀਏ ਰਲਾਇਆ ।੨੬੭। 

Sikhs did a plea [towards Guru Gobind Singh] to merge Adi Granth with Dasam Granth.

ਬਚਨ ਕੀਤਾ, "ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈ ਉਹੁ, ਏਹ ਅਸਾਡੀ ਹੈ ਖੇਡ ।" 

[Guru Gobind Singh Ji] said, "Granth Sahib is the Adi, and [Dasam Grath] is my play."

ਨਾਲ ਨ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਆਹਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ, ਕਉਨ ਜਾਣੇ ਭੇਦ । 

The wonderous beloved Guru Gobind Singh did not merge them together, who can understand this secret of Guru Sahib? [of why they were kept separate]

ਸੋ, ਦੋਨੋ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਕਰ ਜਾਨੋ । 

So, recognize both Granth Sahib's as Guru and brothers. 

ਵਡਾ ਹੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਗੁਰੂ, ਗੁਟਕੇ-ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਪੋਤ੍ਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਪਛਾਨੋ ।੨੬੮। 

The larger [Adi Granth] received the Tika [Guruship], the smaller gutka-pothian recognize them as sons and grandson. 

[Guest]

This should answer your question 

[BhForce]

10 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

ਸੋ, ਦੋਨੋ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਕਰ ਜਾਨੋ । 

So, recognize both Granth Sahib's as Guru and brothers. 

Thanks for posting this. Liked.

Viewed in the proper perspective, there's absolutely conflict between Guru Granth Sahib and the Dasam Granth Sahib.