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Considering the fact that Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the Eternal Guru to all Sikhs, why is the Dasam Granth debated?


TejS
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17 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:

ਸੁਣੋ ਭਾਈ ਸਿਖੋ । ਐਸਾ ਸੰਤ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨੋ । ਦਸੇ ਮਹਲ ਇਕ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀ ਪਛਾਨੋ । 

Listen Sikh Brothers! Recognize Baba Nanak as a true Saint, this is truth. In the ten forms [10 Guru's], recognize Baba Nanak in all of them.

ਦਸਵਾਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਗੱਦੀ ਗੁਰਿਆਈ ਦੀ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਦੇ ਹੈ ਗਿਆ । 

The tenth King has given the Guruship to the Granth Sahib.

ਬਿਨਾਂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੇ, ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈਨਿ ਦੁਇ ਸਕੇ ਭਾਈ । 

Without the Granth there is nothing else, the Granth Sahib has it's form in two brothers.

ਇਕ ਹੈ ਵਡਾ ਇਕ ਛੋਟਾ ਕਹਾਈ ।੨੬੫। 

[Recognize] One as larger [brother, which is Adi Granth] and one as smaller [brother, Dasam Granth].

ਸੰਮਤੁ ਸੋਲ੍ਹਾ ਸੈ ਅਠਵੰਜਾ ਸੇ ਗਏ । ਤਬ ਆਦਿ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਲਏ । 

In 1658 Bikrami the Adi Granth took birth [was created].

ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨ ਜੀ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜਨਮੁ ਹੈ ਧਾਰਾ । 

In the house of Guru Arjan Dev Ji the Granth Sahib took its birth.

ਦਾਇਆ ਸੀ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ, ਲਿਖਾਰੀ ਖਿਡਾਵਣਹਾਰਾ ।੨੬੬। 

Bhai Gurdas, with the blessings [of Guru Arjan], was the scribe.

ਛੋਟਾ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜੀ, ਜਨਮੇ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ । 

The smaller [brother] Granth, took birth in the Tenth King's house.

ਸੰਮਤੁ ਸਤਾਰਾਂ ਸੈ ਪਚਵੰਜਾ, ਬਹੁਤ ਖਿਡਾਵੇ-ਲਿਖਾਰੇ ਨਾਮ । 

In 1755 Bikrami [it was born], [Guru Ji wrote it] under many names [Das Gobind, Syaam, Ram, Kaal etc].

ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਸੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ । ਹੱਥੀ ਲਿਖਿਆ, ਖਿਡਾਇਆ । 

[Guru Gobind Singh] Sahib had much love for this scripture, He himself hand wrote it.

ਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸੁ, ਜੀ ਅਗਲੇ ਨਾਲਿ ਚਾਹੀਏ ਰਲਾਇਆ ।੨੬੭। 

Sikhs did a plea [towards Guru Gobind Singh] to merge Adi Granth with Dasam Granth.

ਬਚਨ ਕੀਤਾ, "ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈ ਉਹੁ, ਏਹ ਅਸਾਡੀ ਹੈ ਖੇਡ ।" 

[Guru Gobind Singh Ji] said, "Granth Sahib is the Adi, and [Dasam Grath] is my play."

ਨਾਲ ਨ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਆਹਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ, ਕਉਨ ਜਾਣੇ ਭੇਦ । 

The wonderous beloved Guru Gobind Singh did not merge them together, who can understand this secret of Guru Sahib? [of why they were kept separate]

ਸੋ, ਦੋਨੋ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਕਰ ਜਾਨੋ । 

So, recognize both Granth Sahib's as Guru and brothers. 

ਵਡਾ ਹੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਗੁਰੂ, ਗੁਟਕੇ-ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਪੋਤ੍ਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਪਛਾਨੋ ।੨੬੮। 

The larger [Adi Granth] received the Tika [Guruship], the smaller gutka-pothian recognize them as sons and grandson. 

I was thinking of this hukamnama as I was reading OP  Thanks Veer ji

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Guest Pakhandi Baba
On 5/15/2018 at 12:15 AM, TejS said:

I respect the warrior tradition of Nihangs, thus the picture.

Well that's like claiming that the Sikh identity and ideology consists only of the Khalsa, which would be wrong because Sikhi is far more than that. I think this is a problem with our people because in our struggles, we have inadvertently focused on our physical identity rather than focus on spirituality. 

Well the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is related to the Adi Granth and the Adi Granth had been formalized for the Sikhs by Guru Arjan Dev Ji before. So the elevation of the updated Adi Granth to the status of Guru does not raise any questions/concerns considering most of the text had already been accepted by Sikhs very early on.  I'm not questioning the authorship of the Dasam Granth; I'm simply asking in what esteem should Sikhs hold it in. So with that said, I accept both claims in Sikh history, but our history does not claim that the Dasam Granth was elevated to be our eternal Guru.

These are my own thoughts and questions so I have no clue which radical missionaries are being mentioned here. But like I said considering that the Adi Granth dates back to Guru Arjan Dev Ji, it's safe to accept that it was destined to be our eternal Guru.

I don't see how that is. My question was not about authorship, however about the status we give to each text. Considering that Sikh history attests to the fact that the Gurgaddi was given to the Guru Granth Sahib and not the Dasam Granth explicitly renders any allegations against the Guru Granth Sahib as baseless.

I don't think that length would be a reason to leave out a crucial part of God's orders for Sikhs. The most logical thing to assume is that the teachings of the Dasam Granth are not meant to held at the same level of respect, guidance as the Guru Granth Sahib. Because both miri and piri are fundamental to Sikhs, and I think that the Guru Granth Sahib covers both things extremely well, it's not lacking in anything in my opinion. So if the Dasam Granth represented a vital part of Sikh tradition, it would have surely been elevated as Guru and if without it one could not be a true Sikh. 

I have partly read the Guru Granth Sahib and certain bani from the Dasam Granth and I agree that their nature/style is uniquely different. However, the point isn't about their differences or even similarities, it's what they stand for. And one clearly has been given the Gurgaddi while the other hasn't, and so there has to be a reason for doing so. If Dasam Granth was to be an eternal teacher/guide for Sikhs, then Guru Saheb could have elevated not one but two texts to Guruship, but he chose not to and so clearly there has to be a reason and distinction between the two. I disagree again that the Guru Granth Sahib lacks temporal teachings, it focuses on how to strike a balance between spiritual and temporal harmony.

Your analogy regarding Michelangelo's sculpture/fresco has no basis because those pieces of art aren't God's eternal order for humans. It's simply art, and so are you trying to imply that the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Dasam Granth are merely art? 

Well there we have it, clearly he did not consider his play to act as a guide/teacher to Sikhs eternally. It reads like an autobiography and reflects the Guru's experiences in order to encourage the Khalsa into battle. Perhaps it was written solely for Sikhs engaging the battlefield. Perhaps the intended audience is not everyone and one can realize that given the nature of certain texts.

I should have made it clearer that I meant religious knowledge when talking about knowledge on here.

My calculus book is firstly not a religious scripture from which I obtain religious knowledge. It only provides me temporal knowledge.

Muslims borrowed heavily from the Ancient Greek writers during the Islamic Golden Age. So I don't know where you are getting that from. But they never allow other practices to influence their central religious text, which is admirable.

No I am not, and I have never mentioned this. But there's a difference between knowledge that you get from a Guru and that from not a Guru. 

It was for this reason and the fact that people were asserting baseless claims regarding the Guru's teachings that Guru Arjan Dev Ji formalized the Adi Granth. So it was sanctioned by the Gurus. It's not like people compounded their spiritual knowledge with Adi Granth simply because they felt like it.

But you're religious knowledge and conduct should ONLY be taken from the Guru Granth Sahib. By your logic we should then be taking things from the Torah and the Quran and whatnot because it classifies as knowledge.

 

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  • 2 months later...
On 5/15/2018 at 10:03 PM, Singh123456777 said:

ਸੁਣੋ ਭਾਈ ਸਿਖੋ । ਐਸਾ ਸੰਤ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਜਾਨੋ । ਦਸੇ ਮਹਲ ਇਕ ਬਾਬਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀ ਪਛਾਨੋ । 

Listen Sikh Brothers! Recognize Baba Nanak as a true Saint, this is truth. In the ten forms [10 Guru's], recognize Baba Nanak in all of them.

 ਦਸਵਾਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਗੱਦੀ ਗੁਰਿਆਈ ਦੀ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਦੇ ਹੈ ਗਿਆ । 

 The tenth King has given the Guruship to the Granth Sahib.

 ਬਿਨਾਂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਨ ਜਾਣੇ, ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈਨਿ ਦੁਇ ਸਕੇ ਭਾਈ । 

Without the Granth there is nothing else, the Granth Sahib has it's form in two brothers.

ਇਕ ਹੈ ਵਡਾ ਇਕ ਛੋਟਾ ਕਹਾਈ ।੨੬੫। 

[Recognize] One as larger [brother, which is Adi Granth] and one as smaller [brother, Dasam Granth].

ਸੰਮਤੁ ਸੋਲ੍ਹਾ ਸੈ ਅਠਵੰਜਾ ਸੇ ਗਏ । ਤਬ ਆਦਿ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਲਏ । 

In 1658 Bikrami the Adi Granth took birth [was created].

ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜਨ ਜੀ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜਨਮੁ ਹੈ ਧਾਰਾ । 

In the house of Guru Arjan Dev Ji the Granth Sahib took its birth.

ਦਾਇਆ ਸੀ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ, ਲਿਖਾਰੀ ਖਿਡਾਵਣਹਾਰਾ ।੨੬੬। 

Bhai Gurdas, with the blessings [of Guru Arjan], was the scribe.

ਛੋਟਾ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਜੀ, ਜਨਮੇ ਦਸਵੇਂ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹ ਕੇ ਧਾਮ । 

The smaller [brother] Granth, took birth in the Tenth King's house.

ਸੰਮਤੁ ਸਤਾਰਾਂ ਸੈ ਪਚਵੰਜਾ, ਬਹੁਤ ਖਿਡਾਵੇ-ਲਿਖਾਰੇ ਨਾਮ । 

In 1755 Bikrami [it was born], [Guru Ji wrote it] under many names [Das Gobind, Syaam, Ram, Kaal etc].

ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੂੰ ਸੀ ਪਿਆਰਾ । ਹੱਥੀ ਲਿਖਿਆ, ਖਿਡਾਇਆ । 

[Guru Gobind Singh] Sahib had much love for this scripture, He himself hand wrote it.

ਸਿਖਾਂ ਕੀਤੀ ਅਰਦਾਸੁ, ਜੀ ਅਗਲੇ ਨਾਲਿ ਚਾਹੀਏ ਰਲਾਇਆ ।੨੬੭। 

Sikhs did a plea [towards Guru Gobind Singh] to merge Adi Granth with Dasam Granth.

ਬਚਨ ਕੀਤਾ, "ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈ ਉਹੁ, ਏਹ ਅਸਾਡੀ ਹੈ ਖੇਡ ।" 

[Guru Gobind Singh Ji] said, "Granth Sahib is the Adi, and [Dasam Grath] is my play."

 ਨਾਲ ਨ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ਆਹਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ, ਕਉਨ ਜਾਣੇ ਭੇਦ । 

The wonderous beloved Guru Gobind Singh did not merge them together, who can understand this secret of Guru Sahib? [of why they were kept separate]

ਸੋ, ਦੋਨੋ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਕਰ ਜਾਨੋ । 

So, recognize both Granth Sahib's as Guru and brothers. 

ਵਡਾ ਹੈ ਟਿਕਾ ਗੁਰੂ, ਗੁਟਕੇ-ਪੋਥੀਆਂ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਪੋਤ੍ਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਪਛਾਨੋ ।੨੬੮। 

The larger [Adi Granth] received the Tika [Guruship], the smaller gutka-pothian recognize them as sons and grandson. 

Where is this from, and when was it written? 

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On 5/13/2018 at 10:43 PM, BhForce said:

Sikh sources state that Sikhs asked Guru Sahib to "add" their bani to the Granth Sahib, but Guru ji said, No, that is the Guru, this (Dasam bani) is my leela (play).

On 5/13/2018 at 7:08 PM, TejS said:

Source please? 

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On 5/13/2018 at 10:43 PM, BhForce said:

 

GuruGranth Sahib is already 1430 pages long. Why do you think Guru Sahib should have been obligated to createa huge 3000 page granth? That's Guru Sahib's decision, not ours.

How many angs Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji would have had been by adding Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji has no impact on to keep them together or separated.

 

Guru Granth Sahib is a font of spirituality. The Dasam Granth Sahib is a source of temporality. (miri). It also describes the old avatars to show they were lower than God, but always in a martial tone.

 

Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji Bani does not lack in spirituality. Jaap Sahib would not be right after Japji sahib in amrit Sanchar had it been a source of temporality. Its a source of the divine and is the divine/Akal Purakh.  After all both are Guru's Bani that praises Akal Purakh and attaches the reader to Akal Purakh.

 

Sikhs don't need to make up reasons to a question Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji may not have answered.

 

 

ਬਚਨ ਕੀਤਾ, "ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈ ਉਹੁ, ਏਹ ਅਸਾਡੀ ਹੈ ਖੇਡ ।"

 

[Guru Gobind Singh Ji] said, "Granth Sahib is the Adi, and [Dasam Grath] is my play."   

 

The above says: it was said, Granth Sahib is there, this is my play.

 

This is what bansavalinama claims was said by the Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji after Sikhs asked about making Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji as one.

 

Let's just accept both are separate and Guruship was given to Adi Granth Sahib and not Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji.  As to why they are separate, yet some of the Bani come together at amrit sanchar is not explained because either the Guru didn't explain it or was explained and was diluted over time or the explanation was lost over time. 

 

Let's not be influenced by missionaries to use  worldly logic and make up an answer to satisfy anyone. The goal is to be absorbed in the Gurus Bani.  Those who don't read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji have strange questions on Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji.  Had they been reading Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, they would have read Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji because the Guru brings not doubt and worldly logic in a person but contentment and humility.  These two virtues would have sparked the soul to take a dip in the Bani of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji had the person wanted to know about Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji.

 

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Guest JSinghnz
On 5/13/2018 at 7:08 PM, TejS said:

I've read on this forum and have met certain people in real life claim that the Dasam Granth should be placed in Gurudwaras and teachings from it should be used in life. Although I can argue that many concepts and teachings are already practiced from the Dasam Granth such as Khalsa being the most notable, as well as certain Ardas being found in the Granth, my question is really about the debate for the consideration of the Dasam Granth. If the decision has been made by Guru Saheb himself, then why are people challenging it? I mean if the teachings in the Dasam Granth were meant to apply to Sikhs for eternity, then Guru Saheb could have himself added them into the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, however he chose not to and did not give the Gurgaddi to the Dasam Granth either. So, if I'm not being ignorant, people should not be seeking the Dasam Granth for knowledge, when, as per the Guru, the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the be-all and end-all. If, however, I am missing some crucial information and knowledge, please explain and discuss.

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