Jump to content

Gurdwara Designs


Guest jigsaw_puzzled_singh
 Share

Recommended Posts

I think the reason we never really developed our own culture is because we were constantly invaded by foreigners for around 1000 years. Punjab was used like a corridor for all those invaders. we were never really given the space to develop our own culture because we were constantly forced and bombarded with the culture of the invaders. Also our people had been living with constant fear and anxiety for generations, fear and anxiety had become part of us and was passed down. The invaders had broken the backbone of Indian society, we were not only enslaved physically but mentally too. On top of that the evil practices of the brahmins and the caste system made things even worse, Punjabis were spineless 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest jigsaw_puzzled_singh
1 hour ago, MisterrSingh said:

Jagsaw's historical revisionism and critical theory in full flow once more on this forum. Seems like he's been brainstorming a folder full of ideas to mold supple and impressionable minds. "Just passing through, guys; been so busy." The living embodiment of a boomerang. ?

Why on earth would you be saying that mistersingh ?   What did I say that made you say that ? ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest jigsaw_puzzled_singh
12 hours ago, TejS said:

You are so misinformed, it's not even funny. Moorish architecture in Spain is not "Arabian", as the Moors were from the Maghreb and not from Arabia. Moorish architecture found in Andalusia is mostly a mix of Berber (the ethnicity of the Moors) and Spanish architecture with Arabic/Islamic influences.

Yes that demonstrates Arabian architecture which by the way is synonymous with Islamic architecture. And the peaked domes and the overall layout is very reminiscent of Gurudwaras I see all the time.

Yup, you're still pretty misinformed. You would not have said the Arabian style is different to the Persian style which is influenced by Byzantine architecture, had you known that the first major demonstration of Arabic architecture that was to serve as the basis and influence for Arabic/Islamic architecture, the Dome of the Rock, was heavily influenced by Byzantine architecture. Persian architecture pre-Islam and before the Sassanids was extremely different and did not have the domes and horse-shoe arches that are now seen everywhere in Iran. The ruins of Persepolis and the Tomb of Cyrus are good examples of what Persian architecture was like before Islam. So, the influence goes like this: Byzantium > Arabic/Islamic > Persian > Central Asian > South Asian > Sikh.

Persepolis ruins:

116040-004-298127E3.jpg

Here's a reconstruction of Persepolis:

Persepolis_Reconstruction_Apadana_Chipie

And here's the Tomb of Cyrus:

264.jpg?v=1485680718

And herein lies the problem with our community. I've even opened up a thread about it that we have never cultivated a culture of our own. Everything that we call our own today is West Asian in origin, a group of people that we share no heritage with. Our culture represents the stupidity of our ancestors and their servitude under their West Asian rulers. Yes, everybody is influenced by others, but there's a limit to influence. You can be inspired from something and then build on it to make it your own. This has not been the case with our people (Punjabi and South Asians as well) who have blatantly taken what was imposed on them. It's a shame really.

Hi TejS. Thank you so much for your valuable input. Although I must say I'm a little surprised that you've chosen to take a combatative approach towards me. If I did say or do something that might have upset you please do accept my apologies. As for what you say in your message, I'm a little taken aback because my essentially the only thing I said in my opening message was that the term 'Arabic architecture' is not the correct one to use and that everything is influenced by other things that came before it. And I mean 'everything'.  Within your post, you seem to come round to that thinking anyway by the end of it by substituting 'Arabic' to 'Islamic' anyway so in many ways it demonstrates my argument that there is more that unites us than divides. Division is a man made concept. Unity, and the celebration and salute of what  men, women and animals before us did is the natural state of the human soul and it's connection to other beating hearts and the environment. I make that point because at the end of the message I will refer to your 'unintelligence' thread and also as a way of reinforcing my initial argument that it is plainly wrong to simply attribute Sikh architecture to Islamic architecture. Everything is influenced by other things. Everything. Even the first man that ever chose to come out of the caves and build shelter from sticks was influenced by the birds and other animals.  However, let's address some of your points:

Quote

You are so misinformed, it's not even funny. Moorish architecture in Spain is not "Arabian", as the Moors were from the Maghreb and not from Arabia. Moorish architecture found in Andalusia is mostly a mix of Berber (the ethnicity of the Moors) and Spanish architecture with Arabic/Islamic influences.

First of all what you've said there reinforces my argument that everything is influenced by something else anyways but as for the Moors: It is only black nationalists and the Wikipedia via the popular media that believe the moors were solely black and mahgreb. Whilst only very partly true at the very beginning they soon came to encompass a majority Arab make-up and by the time of their heyday in Spain and Portugal the word Moor' (or Saracen) was synonymous and used interchangeably for 'Arab'. Moorish architecture then, is Arabic architecture. All architectural styles adapt to their geographical setting. For example, Islamic architecture once it was on the Persian peninsula adapted to encompass beauty given the access to Chinese tiles via the old silk route and sikh architecture adapted in north America to encompass the geographical access to timber. Everything is connected and everyone is connected. Division has to be created. The connection is natural.

Quote

Yes that demonstrates Arabian architecture which by the way is synonymous with Islamic architecture. 

Arabic architecture is not the correct term to use. Islamic Architecture is. 

Quote

Yes that demonstrates Arabian architecture which by the way is synonymous with Islamic architecture. And the peaked domes and the overall layout is very reminiscent of Gurudwaras I see all the time.

No the Islamic domes are not the same as the ones you "see all the time" on Gurdwaras. Best seen from the air, Sikh domes are mostly (not always - given the wide variety of Sikh architectural styles - but mostly) inverted tulips. 99% of the time the  difference between a Sikh dome and an Islamic one is very obvious. Going back to the issue of influence and in reference to your other thread about 'intelligence' true intelligence was within our Gurus. True gyan. Never mind the meaningless ad totally unconnected relatively late erection of the temple rock dome in Jeruselum our Gurus understood the much older Hindu science behind the Dome. That much older science specified the dimensions, shape and spiritual energy of the dome with regards to sound therapy and spiritual healing. So again, as I said in my opening message to this thread, we shouldn't get too hung up on 'Islamic' influences. Everybody and everything is influenced by other things....not just Islamic.

Quote

Yup, you're still pretty misinformed. You would not have said the Arabian style is different to the Persian style which is influenced by Byzantine architecture, had you known that the first major demonstration of Arabic architecture that was to serve as the basis and influence for Arabic/Islamic architecture, the Dome of the Rock, was heavily influenced by Byzantine architecture

Well I must say I'm a little surprised that you would even think I didn't know that the Byzantine empire also covered the whole of the middle east and even more surprised that you think I wouldn't say what I said. Everything is influenced by other things. Everything. Nothing appears in isolation. Neither we nor anybody else just suddenly dropped out of the sky one day. All people are connected. Here in London, we are surrounded by all architectural styles, including some beautiful byzantine cathedrals. Everything is connected. No one thing defines anything.

Quote

So, the influence goes like this: Byzantium > Arabic/Islamic > Persian > Central Asian > South Asian > Sikh.

Did you leave out the eastern Christian tradition on purpose ? It was there long before Islam was even invented so why leave it out whn it in many ways influenced the Islamic style ?  Remember that photo from my first message of that white coloured orthodox church ? When you see that does it not remind you in some way of the Akal Takht ?  This is what connects all of us in so many ways. As I stated in my very first message : don't get too hung up on the Islamic side of things for it is just one of many influences.

Quote

And herein lies the problem with our community. I've even opened up a thread about it that we have never cultivated a culture of our own. Everything that we call our own today is West Asian in origin, a group of people that we share no heritage with. Our culture represents the stupidity of our ancestors and their servitude under their West Asian rulers. Yes, everybody is influenced by others, but there's a limit to influence. You can be inspired from something and then build on it to make it your own. This has not been the case with our people (Punjabi and South Asians as well) who have blatantly taken what was imposed on them. It's a shame really

I've seen your thread. It's a good one and we need more like it here on this forum.  Listen though, we do share heritage with everyone. Denying that shared heritage is in my mind 'unintelligent' whereas embracing it goes some way towards 'intelligence'.  What is 'intelligence' anyway ?  I have a degree, 2 masters and twice abandoned doctorates because I get bored an yet I have a call a man in to paste my wallpaper and need help to lay wooden flooring. That makes me very VERY unintelligent. I know history and can quote Descartes and the great stoics and yet I have to call a man in whenever my boiler's water pressure goes wrong. That makes me very VERY stupid. I like the arts, classical music , visit galleries and have spent half my life in museums and lectures and yet I don't know how to move my body in motion in happiness (dance). That makes me incredibly stupid. Each of us, including you, is incredibly stupid. You, for implying in your thread that you are the intelligent one and others are unintelligent are perhaps as stupid as I. Perhaps, those with the skills to survive are the true intelligent ones ? Perhaps those without any schooling that left Punjab knowing they had to provide for their families and so made the dangerous trek through central Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe and then finally arriving in the UK by clinging to the bottom of a truck for 8 hours are the true intelligent ones ? When one can do that (i.e have enough intelligence to know how to survive) and the professor can't change a fuse or tape up faulty electrical wiring who out of these is the true intelligent one ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest jigsaw_puzzled_singh

I'm going to post my last message on this thread. Its a real shame because I personally enjoyed immensely the opportunity to discuss things that I love so much with people I love so much.....i.e. MY people. But hey ho...I know where I'm not wanted :)

So, let me tell you all a story. It goes like this:  For the last decade I've been a regular on 3 or 4 online forums. This one, a football one and 2 architecture ones (skyscraper and city data). Of the 4, city data and skyscraper are without doubt where I have been the most prolific. In other words, over 80% of my online forum time had been spent on those two. So, anyway, a few years ago there was a thread in which people around the world were posting pictures of Sikh and Hindu Mandirs and Gurdwaras in the UK and it was clear that everyone thought they were beautiful buildings that were adding positively to the architectural landscape of the UK. Me - you knowing the way I am ( a cynic turned stoic but still probably a cynic at heart) - felt a little uneasy with the praise. It got me thinking this: "the fact there seems to be beautiful new Gurdwaras being built across the UK and they all seem to resemble Mughal and Rajhastani styles of buildings....Is this Sikh architecture or is this what they (white Europerans) want to enforce on us as 'Sikh architecture' for the sake of having beautifull buildings across the landscape". So, I did what I always seem to do and dug a little deeper into official records. Luckily enough, at the time, proposals in Leicester for a new Gurdwara were being formulated so I wanted to know what Leicester City Council's Planning Department wanted. This is what they said:

Quote

The City Council will welcome designs and materials for each building that projects a strong image of a place of worship in the distinctive cultural tradition of the user group. Highly visible features such as towers or spires, any kind of illuminated sign or proposals for the floodlighting of the buildings will be considered carefully in their context.

Must be "in the distinctive cultural tradition" of the user group. Now think about that statement for one moment. Not just Leicester, but planning departments throughout the UK are insisting that all design proposals for new Gurdwara buildings must be in the 'distinctive cultural style'. So what is that 'distinctive cultural style' that is needed in order to secure planning permission ?  Well, that 'distinctive cultural style' is what their white European eyes would like to imagine it to be. Not what it is...or what you imagine your own cultural tradition to be. It's what they want it to be because to their eyes it looks beautiful and exotic. Don't get me wrong. It is beautiful and even I myself take great pleasure in standing across the road from places like Bedford Gurdwara and Ilford Gurdwara and admiring it's equisite beauty. But the question is, is it Sikh Architecture or is it yet another example of colonial 'masters' imposing their will upon us and telling us what our own culture and tradition is ?   So, the next time another of these beautiful new Gurdwaras is built in the UK do step back a moment and think to yourself : "is this really Sikh architecture......or are there puppeteers behind the scene pulling the strings in order to convince my mind that this is what Sikh architecture is supposed to look like? "

Anyway, like I said, I could go on with a few more examples from different councils but I really don't want to be in any situations in which there is ill-feeling towards each other and as some here have already indicated they would rather I was gone I won't post in this thread again but do feel I owe any of you who may be interested my thoughts on what I think Sikh Architecture is also what my own favourite Gurdwara building is.  I'll start with my favourite and because of the sheer beauty of it's sublime natural simplicity as my Guru's abode it just has to be the Central Gurdwara in Singapore both for the effortless way it blends in with it's surrounding and the serenity inside:

Related image

Image result for singapore gurdwara

 

 

So then...Do I think there is a Sikh Architecture ?

No.  Knowing the ancient Hindu spiritual healing sound qualities that emanate from the dome, for me that is a pre-requisite but not for the Islamic / Christian tradition of it being a gateway to heaven. The Hindu science behind the dome pre-dates the existence of both Christians and Muslims as a people so I'll leave it there. Beyond that, I believe the architecture that defines we Sikhs should be based on us as a people here and now rather than the geographical region that our people may have come from. So, for example, I believe there should a Sikh Architecture of Canada with it's own style and traditions just as there should be a Sikh Architecture of Britain. Britain's style should in some clever way reflect the historic legacy of UK Sikhs of housing Gurdwaras in former industrial factories. In the same way, I believe all new Gurdwaras built in Canada, regardless of province, should in some way reflect the timber legacy of Sikhs there. Our Religion is set. Our culture and heritage however is fluid. It moves across geographical boundaries and our style of architecture should reflect that. Other than that, I think you all know by now how the environment plays a big part in my life so given the guidance given by our Gurus I feel an essential aspect of all new Gurdwaras should be the fact that they are green at heart.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Jigsaw for the topic. Just came across this now. I missed the last one you did also. 

I think reason why Sikh have a similar design to arabian or middle eastern because we were influenced by the mughals at the time.

That could be the only reason. 

I dont see what the significance of the design is anyway. It is what is inside the structures that count. 

For me a temple is a place that can be any structure. As the beauty is inside and outside. I do believe we should go back to our original archtecture. ie hemkund saihib. So we look more distinctive. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest jigsaw_puzzled_singh
2 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Like all of Jagsaw's offerings on this site, there's a subtext to his ideas, most of them based in a desire to undermine Sikhi and Punjabism, in  particular that unique strand of our collective consciousness that harbours a discerning wariness and occasional hostility directed at Islam and Pakistanis, in general, for good reason. Our sianne broadly term what Jagsaw's is undertaking as "ani chalakhiyan" or "blind trickery / deception." The slightly more specific and accurate English term for it is 'disinformation' and perhaps an element of revisionism. The fact that I even have to spell this out astounds me.

Admittedly, whilst there are undeniable historical and cultural confluences that form the common root of Punjabism, which, in part, can be traced to Middle Eastern cultural influences (architecture being the particular avenue of attack selected by our erstwhile Goebbels in this instance), Jagsaw's reason for drawing these parallels is not based in a benevolent desire to educate; no, he wishes to desperately propagate a specific idea so that it takes hold in the minds of whomever encounters his insidious little history lessons, namely that Sikhs and Muslims have a common history and culture; that we shouldn't bear any hostility toward them; that our collective roots should be enough for us to forgive and forget their historical transgressions against us, and that we should all let bygones be bygones and stop being so bl00dy proud of our unique religious, martial, and cultural history, because we were all Middle Easterners one distant day in the past!

In simple vernacular, he's making mugs of you people who fall at his feet whenever he churns out his copied and pasted bakwaas that he first mangles through his critical theory filter (seriously, if you don't know what critical theory is just Google it) before vomitting up his various theories that are designed to chip away at the truth. He clearly thinks you're a bunch of uninformed, uneducated idiots who've never opened a history book in your entire lives. And if the fawning admiration for the prodigal son once he "returns" to these parts (that's if he ever leaves, the lurking weirdo) is any indication, I'm inclined to reluctantly agree with his assessment of the people on this forum. 

I hate getting serious. Life is one big and mostly unfunny joke, but when a wholly besharam individual takes the pashaab in such a consistently blatant and obvious manner, I feel compelled to speak up.

I don't wish to question your sanity mistersingh but that is quite possibly the most ludicrous thing I have ever read in my entire life.  I write my feelings and thoughts. I never copy and paste. I don't need to because I can write. I don't insult...I don't need to because I can write. I beg of you....show me things..anything...that I have 'copy and pasted' ?  You don't have to like me but your venom towards me when I have not said anything bad to you nor anything else is truly mind-blowing not to mention distressing. Despite your ill-words towards me I respectfully ask you to tell me which of my writings you think is 'copy and pasted' and also tell me what I have said to anyone that deserves abuse and contempt. If you find just the one thing, I will gladly and humbly apologise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share


  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • yeh it's true, we shouldn't be lazy and need to learn jhatka shikaar. It doesn't help some of grew up in surrounding areas like Slough and Southall where everyone thought it was super bad for amrit dharis to eat meat, and they were following Sant babas and jathas, and instead the Singhs should have been normalising jhatka just like the recent world war soldiers did. We are trying to rectifiy this and khalsa should learn jhatka.  But I am just writing about bhog for those that are still learning rehit. As I explained, there are all these negative influences in the panth that talk against rehit, but this shouldn't deter us from taking khanda pahul, no matter what level of rehit we are!
    • How is it going to help? The link is of a Sikh hunter. Fine, but what good does that do the lazy Sikh who ate khulla maas in a restaurant? By the way, for the OP, yes, it's against rehit to eat khulla maas.
    • Yeah, Sikhs should do bhog of food they eat. But the point of bhog is to only do bhog of food which is fit to be presented to Maharaj. It's not maryada to do bhog of khulla maas and pretend it's OK to eat. It's not. Come on, bro, you should know better than to bring this Sakhi into it. Is this Sikh in the restaurant accompanied by Guru Gobind Singh ji? Is he fighting a dharam yudh? Or is he merely filling his belly with the nearest restaurant?  Please don't make a mockery of our puratan Singhs' sacrifices by comparing them to lazy Sikhs who eat khulla maas.
    • Seriously?? The Dhadi is trying to be cute. For those who didn't get it, he said: "Some say Maharaj killed bakras (goats). Some say he cut the heads of the Panj Piyaras. The truth is that they weren't goats. It was she-goats (ਬਕਰੀਆਂ). He jhatka'd she-goats. Not he-goats." Wow. This is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard in relation to Sikhi.
    • Instead of a 9 inch or larger kirpan, take a smaller kirpan and put it (without gatra) inside your smaller turban and tie the turban tightly. This keeps a kirpan on your person without interfering with the massage or alarming the masseuse. I'm not talking about a trinket but rather an actual small kirpan that fits in a sheath (you'll have to search to find one). As for ahem, "problems", you could get a male masseuse. I don't know where you are, but in most places there are professional masseuses who actually know what they are doing and can really relieve your muscle pains.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use