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10 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

Guru sahib 'gives us' every day..

Before carrying the weight of kirpan maybe a rabab is what we should carry.. 

Guru ji carried daang too ...stop trying to turn this into an argument for pacifism...a sikh is all in one warrior, king, scholar, priest, artisan, labourer.

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The Stories of Chaubis Avtar are history regarding the deeds of various Purkhs from time. They're not metaphors as you're implying. They give darshan and live, breath and die like the rest of us. Albe

Kalyug is apparently coming to an end soon , Gujarat is the source of Kalki ...hahaha https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/indian-worker-god-lord-vishnu-work-excuse-rameschandra-fefar-gu

We're not even half way there my friend. There's about a good more badness to come. 

8 hours ago, Kira said:

What do you define as Akaal Purkh?

I kinda already did but I'll go in more detail.

So we know, Akal Purakh sahib means Timeless Being.

He is a multi-faceted Being, a multi-dimensional Being, operating in and as all levels of reality.

Since Akal Purakh sahib is so vast and is operating in and as all layers of reality, Saints from various backgrounds saw him in different ways and called him by different names.

If you read Gita or Bhagwad Puran, the Saints there called him Krishna, Hari Rai, Murari, Gobind, Gopal, Narayan, Vishnu, Ram, etc.

When Guru sahibs are speaking these names Krishna, Hari Rai, Murari, Gobind, Gopal, Narayan, Vishnu, Ram, etc., they are referring to Akal Purakh sahib only.

So we must understand that Krishna, Hari Rai, Murari, Gobind, Gopal, Narayan, Vishnu, Ram, etc. these are not separate beings or material bodies or mortal men or angels or anything like that.

They are referring to the One Primal Being, Akal Purakh sahib, and nothing else. They have no other existence apart from being the descriptors and characters of Akal Purakh sahib.

The old stories of Krishan ji, may seem insignificant to many here. Some would even say that they are make-believe fairy tales.

But when you read these stories with this distinction in mind, that this is a characteristic representation of Akal Purakh sahib, then you will see you will see the deeper meanings present therein.

You will see that the stories are referring to the various states and activities of our mind.

And then when you make that connection between the stories and your mind, you will then separate the wheat from the chaff and obtain real gyan from the stories.

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37 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

I kinda already did but I'll go in more detail.

So we know, Akal Purakh sahib means Timeless Being.

He is a multi-faceted Being, a multi-dimensional Being, operating in and as all levels of reality.

Since Akal Purakh sahib is so vast and is operating in and as all layers of reality, Saints from various backgrounds saw him in different ways and called him by different names.

If you read Gita or Bhagwad Puran, the Saints there called him Krishna, Hari Rai, Murari, Gobind, Gopal, Narayan, Vishnu, Ram, etc.

When Guru sahibs are speaking these names Krishna, Hari Rai, Murari, Gobind, Gopal, Narayan, Vishnu, Ram, etc., they are referring to Akal Purakh sahib only.

So we must understand that Krishna, Hari Rai, Murari, Gobind, Gopal, Narayan, Vishnu, Ram, etc. these are not separate beings or material bodies or mortal men or angels or anything like that.

They are referring to the One Primal Being, Akal Purakh sahib, and nothing else. They have no other existence apart from being the descriptors and characters of Akal Purakh sahib.

The old stories of Krishan ji, may seem insignificant to many here. Some would even say that they are make-believe fairy tales.

But when you read these stories with this distinction in mind, that this is a characteristic representation of Akal Purakh sahib, then you will see you will see the deeper meanings present therein.

You will see that the stories are referring to the various states and activities of our mind.

And then when you make that connection between the stories and your mind, you will then separate the wheat from the chaff and obtain real gyan from the stories.

The Stories of Chaubis Avtar are history regarding the deeds of various Purkhs from time. They're not metaphors as you're implying. They give darshan and live, breath and die like the rest of us. Albeit their life lines are aeons longer than the average humans. 

Sure there are internal lessons to learn, but the external shouldn't be ignored. Krishna the deity isn't Akaal Purkh Waheguru Ji manifest as Guru Nanak Dev Ji was, and will never be so. 

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On 5/28/2018 at 2:11 PM, jkvlondon said:

Guru ji carried daang too ...stop trying to turn this into an argument for pacifism...a sikh is all in one warrior, king, scholar, priest, artisan, labourer.

You seem to be confused.. I don't advocate pacifism.. I merely pointed out that there may be a deeper reason why the daang and the responsibility that comes with carrying one was given to only to those who had first mastered the principles of shaant raas

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On 5/28/2018 at 4:37 PM, Singh123456777 said:

So @BhagatSingh, you are saying that chaubis avtar is all just stores describing akaal purkh? And that those avtaars never actually existed?

Well Akal Purakh sahib exists so the avtaars also exist. They have no existence that is separate from Akal Purakh sahib, since they are characters of Akal Purakh sahib and their stories are stories of Akal Purakh sahib.

Now when we say they are stories. We don't mean stories in the regular sense of the word story.

1.  These stories are Divine Narratives, because they convey to us the nature of Akal Purakh sahib.

And

2. These stories directly connect us to Akal Purakh sahib. To listen to the stories is Bhagti because you will feel emotional connection to Akal Purakh sahib through them.

 

So about Krishan ji -

Krishan ji is referring to the Jyoti nature of Akal Purakh Sahib, what in English we would call Consciousness.

This is why Guru Nanak Dev ji says in Asa Di Waar -

The One Krishna is the God of Gods and the God of Consciousness; The Inner Consciousness of a Being, is Krishna, if anyone recognizes this secret. (meaning work towards recognizing this secret in yourself)

The Bhatts (below) say that it is that Jyoti nature of Akal Purakh sahib that has come down as Vaman ji, Ram ji, Krishan ji, and then as Guru Nanak Dev ji.

 

On 5/28/2018 at 4:43 PM, Kira said:

They give darshan and live, breath and die like the rest of us.

indeed. The way Jesus is known as the Living God in Christianity.

(In my view, Jesus Christ is also Akal Purakh Sahib.)

 

Why must the One God become Living God?

This is because the Abstract Absolute provides no practical guidance.

Saying that God is omniscient or formless or anything like that does not tell me anything about how to conduct my life in the day to day grind.

So the Abstract Absolute must unite with the Human Body in order to impart valuable lessons to humanity.

This is why Akal Purakh sahib is known as NarHari, Man-God, in Guru Granth Sahib.

 

Narhari is the merging of the Abstract with the Concrete into a single Being as Narsingh Narayan, as Krishna Murari, as Jesus Christ, as Guru Nanak.

When the Abstract merges with the Concrete, it completes our understanding of Akal Purakh sahib.

 

On 5/28/2018 at 4:43 PM, Kira said:

Sure there are internal lessons to learn, but the external shouldn't be ignored. Krishna the deity isn't Akaal Purkh Waheguru Ji manifest as Guru Nanak Dev Ji was, and will never be so. 

I respect your opinion however this is wrong from the perspective of Gurmati.

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
In Satyug, You enjoyed deceiving and liberating King Bali in the Vaman avtar.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
In Treta, You loved being called King Ram, of the Raghu Dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
In Dwapar, You, Krishan Murari, killed Kans and saved everyone.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
You granted Kingship to Ugrasain and elevated your devotees.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
In Kaliyug, You came as Guru Nanak Dev, Guru Angad Dev and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
The rule of Guru Sahibs is unchanging, unmovable, by the very command of the Primal Being.

 

 

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On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 8:46 PM, jkvlondon said:

the prophecy is in UP janam but UP is kalyug central , I agree the guy is very convinced but timing is wrong . Isn't Khalsa Raj supposed to be before kalki

Agreed still got long way to go. Like still over a million years. Previous 4 Jugs lasted up to a million years it not even jumped over 10,000 when Kaljug started.

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@BhagatSingh

 

3 hours ago, Bhagat Singh said:

Well Akal Purakh sahib exists so the avtaars also exist. They have no existence that is separate from Akal Purakh sahib, since they are characters of Akal Purakh sahib and their stories are stories of Akal Purakh sahib.

Now when we say they are stories. We don't mean stories in the regular sense of the word story.

1.  These stories are Divine Narratives, because they convey to us the nature of Akal Purakh sahib.

And

2. These stories directly connect us to Akal Purakh sahib. To listen to the stories is Bhagti because you will feel emotional connection to Akal Purakh sahib through them.

 

In their stories Ram Chander threw Sita out after he thought she was in love with Ravan, A Sargun Saroop of Akaal Purkh sent from Sach Khand wouldn't do that, Krishna Ji lost to Kharag Singh and even Brahma came to him and said that if he was to assume his true form of Vishnu then it too wouldn't be enough, more indications he was just another spiritual personality.  If their stories are that of Akaal Purkh then so is every single being that comes into existence, their entire life story is that of Akaal Purkh as well. Their stories are about deeds and valour/misdeeds as well in some cases, but to compare them to a Sargun Saroop of Akaal Purkh that in itself is your own ignorance. 

 

Quote

So about Krishan ji -

Krishan ji is referring to the Jyoti nature of Akal Purakh Sahib, what in English we would call Consciousness.

This is why Guru Nanak Dev ji says in Asa Di Waar -

The One Krishna is the God of Gods and the God of Consciousness; The Inner Consciousness of a Being, is Krishna, if anyone recognizes this secret. (meaning work towards recognizing this secret in yourself)

The Bhatts (below) say that it is that Jyoti nature of Akal Purakh sahib that has come down as Vaman ji, Ram ji, Krishan ji, and then as Guru Nanak Dev ji.

 

I think once again you're jumping to conclusions and drawing out stuff that you want, not what's there. Nothing personal but I've read your stuff on SA, I know full well you use the same few verses to peddle your narrative. But Krishna Ji isn't the Jyot Nature of Akaal Purkh at all. He never was, he was an Avtar of Vishnu sent to take care of the growing Paap on the world, In Chaubis Avtar Guru Gobind Singh Ji describes how Akaal Purkh took a form to give Darshan to the Devtas and then called Vishnu over and ordered him to go and take Krishna roop to solve the issue. The Avtars came from the realm of Vishnu (this place is another plane of existence but not Sach Khand) while Guru Nanak Dev Ji came directly from Sach Khand.

 

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I respect your opinion however this is wrong from the perspective of Gurmati.

No, you're prospective is wrong from Gurmat, Sri Dasam Granth says it's wrong and so does Guru Gobind Singh Ji. You seem to labour under the delusion that all the Avtar from the Past are the same origin but Gurmat has always pointed out that they were not. The 33 Swaiyae even rip into Krishna as a character and point out flaws in his nature and character. I dare you to find a tukh in Gurbani which does the same for Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Any previous incarnation of Guru Nanak Dev Ji would never have been referred to in such a way.

That verse as a whole is from different prospective. In Akaal Ustat Guru Ji does the same thing, he says that God is also demons, bees, politics, flowers etc. ALL can be considered the same coming from the same origin, in that state everything is the same, every single thing can have the same connotation that you are implying, a chair could be called an avtar of Waheguru. The Point of the verse was to show that God's Power was at work through the Avtars and that power was the one doing it all, Uggardanti Bani is amazing in explaining this.

The tukhs ਮਾਣਿਓ  and ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ  are integral here and it's clear you're overlooking it and just reading the translations.

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2 hours ago, Kira said:

In their stories Ram Chander threw Sita out after he thought she was in love with Ravan,

You gotta stop getting your facts from potatoes.

Read the Ramayan - http://valmikiramayan.net/

Spoilers below -

It was a very emotional scene.

After rescuing Sita, Ram ji realizes that if he takes her back to Ayodhya, then these actions of the King would be seen as scandalous by his people and they would be outraged. Not only that this would also lead to moral corruption and degradation.

So Ram ji puts everyone else before himself and tells Sita ji that she can go where she wants. He even says that she can marry any of his younger brothers or Sugreev or Vibhishan, and live a comfortable life.

From Valmiki ji's words you can tell Ram Chandra ji is saying it with a heavy heart.

Sita ji is very attached to her husband and sees him as Akal Purakh sahib, so she is torn by these words. She tells him that she is only devoted to him and then asks Lakshman to create a pyre and throws herself on it.

This is the saddest moment in Ramayan.

Imagine you spend all this time gathering an army and search parties. You find out where your wife is imprisoned, and you defeat the greatest  armies and the strongest generals and the strongest man alive, Ravan, all to free a woman you love dearly. But due to the greater cause of Dharma, the betterment of the collective, you have to take the right action and sacrifice your love and tell her that you two can't be together.

And your wife, is also devastated, she spent all this time away from you, longing for you, and when she finally meets you and finds herself in the happiest moment, then she has to separate from you.

So it's a super sad moment, where Akal Purakh sahib has to uphold Dharma and in order to do this, he must let her go.

but after she goes in the fire, all the Gods arrive on the scene. And one by one they all remind Ram Chandra ji that he is Akal Purakh sahib, that he is the Creator of everything, of all of life, that he is the one who set up this play. He is the doer of everything.

After they praise Ram Chandra ji a bit more, the Fire brings Sita ji to him and tells him that she is pure.

Ram Chandra ji takes her into his arms and they return to Ayodhya.

The end.

That's the story.
 

2 hours ago, Kira said:

Krishna Ji lost to Kharag Singh

Dude vegetables are not a good source of facts.

Spoilers -

Krishan ji won against Kharag Singh, and Kharag Singh recognized that he was fighting Akal Purakh sahib and bowed to him.

2 hours ago, Kira said:

 If their stories are that of Akaal Purkh then so is every single being that comes into existence, their entire life story is that of Akaal Purkh as well.

You are close.

When you take the stories of every being, every human on earth and you extract from that the Essence of all the stories, that is Ramayan, that is story of Akal Purakh Sahib.

This is why I said earlier-

"

The old stories of Krishan ji, may seem insignificant to many here. Some would even say that they are make-believe fairy tales.

But when you read these stories with this distinction in mind, that this is a characteristic representation of Akal Purakh sahib, then you will see you will see the deeper meanings present therein.

You will see that the stories are referring to the various states and activities of our mind.

And then when you make that connection between the stories and your mind, you will then separate the wheat from the chaff and obtain real gyan from the stories.

"

The stories of Akal Purakh sahib play out in our everyday life.

And through them we can fine tune our moral compass.

That's why they are stories of Akal Purakh sahib! He resides in us and when Saints recognize the Essence within and write its stories, they invariably end up applying to us as well.

This is how Mahapurakhs like Valmiki ji imparted practical knowledge of Akal Purakh sahib to us, and in doing this he imparted the moral wisdom of how to live in this world.

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8 hours ago, Bhagat Singh said:

You gotta stop getting your facts from potatoes.

My mistake as I got 2 events mixed up. He thought she was in love with Ravan, he even got very angry over this fact and as a result Sita then merges with the earth and leaves. My facts aren't from Potatoes, they come from Sri Dasam Granth, You're free to go and read it, its apparent you've not and want to rely on more tampered sources for information about the past avtars. Sita Ji was exiled, this is fact as Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji write this in Dasam Granth. 

Exiling someone due to gossip ISN'T Dharma. What People say is inconsequential to what is right, if people decided on a whole that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was heretical to their views and wanted to burn the Saroop, I guess by your logic you'd allow it as it would preserve the greater good's peace?

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Dude vegetables are not a good source of facts.

I think the only one getting any information from Vegetables is you. Krishna Ji won through trickery, in a direct face of combat of strength he lost. Spoiler alert he lost, and he lost badly at that., it was only due to the fact Brahma appeared and with Indra they played a trick to reduce Kharag Singh's power by forcing him to perform his dharma and serve a brahmin and then give over his power to Krishna, alone Krishna wasn't enough so a joint effort of Krishna, Apsara and Brahma were required to kill Kharag Singh. No shame in that as if someone can't beat someone else in raw power then deploy tricks and work with other people. 

The only reason Krishna won was due to the presence of others, alone he wasn't enough as Kharag Singh destroyed him in combat face to face.

8 hours ago, Bhagat Singh said:

When you take the stories of every being, every human on earth and you extract from that the Essence of all the stories, that is Ramayan, that is story of Akal Purakh Sahib.
 

That does not mean that the person who was doing everything is akin to a Sargun Saroop of Sri Waheguru Ji. I respect Valmiki Ji, I think he was a highly elevated soul, far above me. But as Sri Satguru Ji points out, he was also wrong in referring to Ram Chandar as God in any shape or form. A Portion of Akaal Purkh rests in us all, but that portion isn't the full divinity of Waheguru. Similar principle to the past yug's Avtars. 

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You will see that the stories are referring to the various states and activities of our mind.

Yes, that is one way of looking at it. But as a physical occurrence. No, that doesn't put any of the avtars in the same league as Sri Satguru Nanak Dev Ji. Satguru Ji is Akaal Purkh's Sargun form. Ram Chandar, Krishna are not. You can find this thought echoed by Mahapurkhs who have studied all the ancient texts and also studied Gurbani. 

 

I can draw conclusions from the Harry Potter books as well, but that doesn't mean that Harry Potter is suddenly Akaal Purkh Sahib. Your principles can be applied to anything, the hero of any story can now suddenly equal a Sargun form of God. What you've done is fall into the same trap that everyone from the past fell into, they started worshipping the servants rather than the boss.

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