Justice in Sikhism

[Premi5]

What is the Sikh perspective on treatment of criminals? How would Sikhs deal with convicted criminals for example during reign of Maharaja Ranjit Singh?

Would it best compare with British, American, sharia or current Indian system? Would there be capital punishment? 

[Premi5]

Anyone?

[intrigued]

During Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time, there was a Halemi Raj and death penalty was never used...

[dallysingh101]

On 5/20/2021 at 12:02 PM, intrigued said:

During Maharaja Ranjit Singh's time, there was a Halemi Raj and death penalty was never used...

That's a myth bhai ji. On wilder border regions of the Sikh raj, they'd string people up regularly. M. Ranjit Singh might not have ordered any executions but his governors certainly did. 

[intrigued]

33 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

That's a myth bhai ji. On wilder border regions of the Sikh raj, they'd string people up regularly. M. Ranjit Singh might not have ordered any executions but his governors certainly did. 

Oh my bad. Thank you for the correction ji 

[dallysingh101]

34 minutes ago, intrigued said:

Oh my bad. Thank you for the correction ji 

No probs, here's some contemporary sources on it:

“…Peshawaur is a fine fortified city, and when we were there was governed by an Italian general in the service of the Maharaja Shere Sing. His name was Avitabili, and he seemed just the sort of person to keep the turbulent and lawless population of Peshawur in order. At every corner of the city was erected a large treble gibbet each of which had seventeen or eighteen malefactors hanging on it, as a gentle hint to the inhabitants to be on their best behavior. I believe there was very little ceremony made with them. If a man looked sulky he was strung up at once in case he should be disaffected. Murder and robbery took place every day in the streets of the city until the General used such energetic measures. Even when we were there it was not safe to leave the camp without being well armed. From all I heard, I imagine that Peshawur contains the most villainous population in India and their Governor whose office it is to keep them in order has no sinecure.”

Lieut. Greenwood of the HM31st regiment 

 

I introduced to our distinguished guests. Col. Wade and Dr. Murray, an Akalee or Nahung, whose nose, ears and

hands had been cut off by order of Runjeet Sing (he had even deserved the gallows ), and whose nose had been so

well restored in the mountains that we were all surprised,and confessed it could not have been better done in Europe.

As we know, from history, this operation was even in the remotest antiquity, practised by the Hindoos ; and they

fermed the nose out of the cuticle of the forehead, which proceeding is now, and always will be the same. In Europe,

where cutting off of noses is only in use, in exceptional cases — as when ulceration or other circumstances make it

requisite — this operation is usually performed with the cuticle of the arm, and judiciously too, as, according to our

custom, the head mostly is uncovered, and a scar on one's forehead, with a new nose on the face, makes rather an ugly

appearance ; whilst, in the East, the scar remains hidden beneath the turban.

 

In time of peace, the Nahungs gave a great deal of trouble to Runjeet Sing. On one occasion, he was even

forced to place two pieces of cannon outside the Delhi Gate of Lahore, in the vicinity of Seidgenj, where the robbers

congregate, because this band dared to intercept the communication of that city. They shut themselves up in Meea-

Meer, five miles distant from Lahore, thence they made their appearance as rebels, but they were defeated, and

forced to depart, and from the town also, to Umritsir.

 

The individual just alluded to as deserving the gallows, had cut off the arm of a sentinel, for having prevented

him from entering the tent of the king by a private entrance. The Nahung had a servant with him, who

underwent no punishment, because he did not behave in an aggressive manner ; but the offender, by the order of Runjeet Singh, lost his ears, nose, and hands, by the same sabre with which he had so skilfully cut off the arm of the soldier on royal duty.

After the sad execution, he ran to drown himself in a well, but was prevented by the people who were accidentally present. When the king was informed of the fact, the culprit was sent to me, and put under

my care and medical attendance, with strict orders to watch him, to prevent his committing suicide, and to present him,

when cured, to the king. According to his own statement, he was drunk with bhang ( hemp ) when he committed the

crime, and his only intention for intruding on the king had been to ask a gapa ( gift ).

John Martin Honigberger

 

[intrigued]

1 hour ago, dallysingh101 said:

I introduced to our distinguished guests. Col. Wade and Dr. Murray, an Akalee or Nahung, whose nose, ears and

hands had been cut off by order of Runjeet Sing (he had even deserved the gallows ), and whose nose had been so

well restored in the mountains that we were all surprised,and confessed it could not have been better done in Europe.

As we know, from history, this operation was even in the remotest antiquity, practised by the Hindoos ; and they

fermed the nose out of the cuticle of the forehead, which proceeding is now, and always will be the same. In Europe,

where cutting off of noses is only in use, in exceptional cases — as when ulceration or other circumstances make it

requisite — this operation is usually performed with the cuticle of the arm, and judiciously too, as, according to our

custom, the head mostly is uncovered, and a scar on one's forehead, with a new nose on the face, makes rather an ugly

appearance ; whilst, in the East, the scar remains hidden beneath the turban.

This is an interesting quote. Is it talking about a rhinoplasty (nose reconstruction)?

[dallysingh101]

1 minute ago, intrigued said:

This is an interesting quote. Is it talking about a rhinoplasty (nose reconstruction)?

Yep. Apparently they've ('Indians') been experts at it for centuries even by that point. If I recall rightly Alberuni (the first Arab person to document Indic culture) even mentions it?

[intrigued]

24 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Yep. Apparently they've ('Indians') been experts at it for centuries even by that point. If I recall rightly Alberuni (the first Arab person to document Indic culture) even mentions it?

Yh i think the first nose reconstruction was done by an Indian surgeon

[Jai Tegang!]

On 5/23/2021 at 4:07 AM, dallysingh101 said:

No probs, here's some contemporary sources on it:

“…Peshawaur is a fine fortified city, and when we were there was governed by an Italian general in the service of the Maharaja Shere Sing. His name was Avitabili, and he seemed just the sort of person to keep the turbulent and lawless population of Peshawur in order. At every corner of the city was erected a large treble gibbet each of which had seventeen or eighteen malefactors hanging on it, as a gentle hint to the inhabitants to be on their best behavior. I believe there was very little ceremony made with them. If a man looked sulky he was strung up at once in case he should be disaffected. Murder and robbery took place every day in the streets of the city until the General used such energetic measures. Even when we were there it was not safe to leave the camp without being well armed. From all I heard, I imagine that Peshawur contains the most villainous population in India and their Governor whose office it is to keep them in order has no sinecure.”

Lieut. Greenwood of the HM31st regiment 

 

I introduced to our distinguished guests. Col. Wade and Dr. Murray, an Akalee or Nahung, whose nose, ears and

hands had been cut off by order of Runjeet Sing (he had even deserved the gallows ), and whose nose had been so

well restored in the mountains that we were all surprised,and confessed it could not have been better done in Europe.

As we know, from history, this operation was even in the remotest antiquity, practised by the Hindoos ; and they

fermed the nose out of the cuticle of the forehead, which proceeding is now, and always will be the same. In Europe,

where cutting off of noses is only in use, in exceptional cases — as when ulceration or other circumstances make it

requisite — this operation is usually performed with the cuticle of the arm, and judiciously too, as, according to our

custom, the head mostly is uncovered, and a scar on one's forehead, with a new nose on the face, makes rather an ugly

appearance ; whilst, in the East, the scar remains hidden beneath the turban.

 

In time of peace, the Nahungs gave a great deal of trouble to Runjeet Sing. On one occasion, he was even

forced to place two pieces of cannon outside the Delhi Gate of Lahore, in the vicinity of Seidgenj, where the robbers

congregate, because this band dared to intercept the communication of that city. They shut themselves up in Meea-

Meer, five miles distant from Lahore, thence they made their appearance as rebels, but they were defeated, and

forced to depart, and from the town also, to Umritsir.

 

The individual just alluded to as deserving the gallows, had cut off the arm of a sentinel, for having prevented

him from entering the tent of the king by a private entrance. The Nahung had a servant with him, who

underwent no punishment, because he did not behave in an aggressive manner ; but the offender, by the order of Runjeet Singh, lost his ears, nose, and hands, by the same sabre with which he had so skilfully cut off the arm of the soldier on royal duty.

After the sad execution, he ran to drown himself in a well, but was prevented by the people who were accidentally present. When the king was informed of the fact, the culprit was sent to me, and put under

my care and medical attendance, with strict orders to watch him, to prevent his committing suicide, and to present him,

when cured, to the king. According to his own statement, he was drunk with bhang ( hemp ) when he committed the

crime, and his only intention for intruding on the king had been to ask a gapa ( gift ).

John Martin Honigberger

 

These british accounts always are fascinating to read as they help fill the gaps, especially about things our historians found too mundane to write about. I 've always wondered what the religiosity of the sardars was in comparison to the nihangs. Also, the caste/economic composition of nihungs would be interesting to know from Dashmesh Pitas time through to the misl period and beyond. They seem to have been from landless sections living almost mercenary style judging from the "gapa (gift)" request. Bhang overuse seems to have been an old habit also.

Btw, what books do you use for british sources?